-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Judges of Final Fantasy XII: A Waste of Potential (Spoilers)
- Thread starter SOLDIER
- Start date
Cannot argue with that. I still have my gabranth action figure.
The Judges design from FF12, it was a fucking wasted potential.
I came from the Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, where the Judges first showed up. Where they are a magic force that rules all with their Law system.
I had high hopes for the FF12 gang.
And then, some were killed in the background.
The fuck.
At least Gabranth was cool.
I came from the Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, where the Judges first showed up. Where they are a magic force that rules all with their Law system.
I had high hopes for the FF12 gang.
And then, some were killed in the background.
The fuck.
At least Gabranth was cool.
Dragon1893
Member
Yeah, it's indeed a shame and probably the most obvious evidence that FFXII's was undercooked, even though I still enjoyed it. I remember having the same exact thoughts when playing it for the first time.
FlutterPuffs
Member
I didn't play FFTA before, so I quite like the Judges.
They seemed to me like relics of the past in FFXII. Once terrifying, but not so more when FFXII took place.
Sort of like a villanious version of Musketeers of the Guard.
They seemed to me like relics of the past in FFXII. Once terrifying, but not so more when FFXII took place.
Sort of like a villanious version of Musketeers of the Guard.
They were so much better in FFTA. Through gameplay alone, they made you downright despise them, even if they were all faceless (save for one of them, of course). Being a "judge" actually meant something in that game! But in XII...? Just a title, no better than being a general. A complete disappointment.
Novel Mike
Member
I have more issues then just that but yeah.
I know people are really happy that FFXII is back out with a remaster but for me its the first title that I was legitimately thought wasn't very good. It has some great elements but other elements (like Licenses) feel extremely restrictive and counter intuitive (Oh hey I found a super awesome much more powerful weapon! Oh... I don't have the license for it so I can't equip it...
). I got the remaster and only played like an hour of it but man, I don't think I'd be playing this game if it didn't have the speed up feature everything just feels so slow from walking around to combat. Also playing the game without the gambit system early on feels so hands off just queuing up commands from the menu. Glad you get gambits early on.The story is by far the biggest offender to be sure and yeah while its no where near as bad as 13-15 (original 14) I think this game was the first sign that the Final Fantasy series was going downhill and development hell is never a good thing for any of these games.
Whats sad about the judges is I don't remember anything about them besides the plot twist with the one which I didn't feel was properly earned. Hell honestly it would've been a much more interesting story if Vayne had not be the villain in the end but the judges were, making it look like he was evil/the obvious villain when they were the ones who were trying to take over the empire and Vayne was true to his first speech. He is so bloody obvious as the villain from the point that you see him in the first hour of the game it would've been a nice twist just for the story to not play out so damn obviously. I mean at its core, FFXII is very much a political story and to me when I think political stories I think backstabs and betrayals many that you don't see coming. FFXII doesn't really have much of that, there is that one twist sure but its still not very surprising. Vayne actually being a good person? That would've been surprising.
Salty Rice
Member
They were used fine imo.
Just because you have 5 Judges you dont need to have give all 5 the same treatment.
It would feel repetitive and just the same over and over again.
I liked that 1 was a main focus, 1 had a bigger part of the plot, 1 was just a boss to stand in your way without having his lifestory, 1 being owned in the background in a cutscene for plot and 1 being at the end in the big battle involved without fighting him.
It feels more realistic than the crew fighting every single judge one after another and hearing all of their lifestories.
Also highly disagree that the FF14 Judges are better.
Just because you have 5 Judges you dont need to have give all 5 the same treatment.
It would feel repetitive and just the same over and over again.
I liked that 1 was a main focus, 1 had a bigger part of the plot, 1 was just a boss to stand in your way without having his lifestory, 1 being owned in the background in a cutscene for plot and 1 being at the end in the big battle involved without fighting him.
It feels more realistic than the crew fighting every single judge one after another and hearing all of their lifestories.
Also highly disagree that the FF14 Judges are better.
*applause*
Well, at least one of those Judges definitely becomes a character of it's own.
Although, I don't think Nero's current role in the story is necessarily what OP was talking about.
This is exactly what happens in Metal Gear Solid and that game has some of the best videogame bosses/characters ever.
Wasn't he? Kinda...? He wanted to free humanity from the cycle of the Occuria... and even succeeded at it! I think? I need to replay it.
The way they drop the ball with Vayne is right up there with my disappointment with the Judges.
It was really interesting seeing him earn the trust of the people of Rabanastre while simultaneously performing underhanded assassinations and other political moves behind the scenes. It made him more three dimensional than the usual FF villain who conquers through fear and power.
Then in the final act, he inexplicably decides to blow up Rabanastre. Like, why did you spend so much time getting the people to love you if you were going to carpet bomb them anyway?
It honestly felt like he had to do something objectively evil and high-stakes, or the story would have kept going for another 30 hours.
Heh, pretty much this.
I always thought XII's story had a lot of potential, but it's just barely ever there. You had massive chunks of the game where nothing happens. You don't even really get that much dialogue between the cast either which could have alleviated the issue. I could get over Vaan and Penelos poor inclusion too if Basch/Balthier/Fran/Ashe all had enough development, screen time and/or dialogue.
Then you get to the Occuria stuff and it kind of just drops off a cliff.
As for the Judges though, yeah, a lot of them suffer from Final Fantasy throw-away villain syndrome which seems to have plagued XII, XIII and XV. I remember being pretty irritated by what happens to Drace. I thought she was one of the more interesting Judges and then she's just dead....
Salty Rice
Member
Well this isnt Metal Gear Solid.
Also these guys have armies and fleets to lead and not hanging out in one facility all game long waiting for Vaan.
I don't want to give way spoilers but he does things in the opening cinematic and half way through the game I don't think anyone could consider good
Hippopuncher12
Member
Man such negativity towards Zargy. He was the 2nd best Judge after Gabranth. Had the morals of Drace, just wasn't an idiot about it, and knew when to not get himself killed because of it. He also was more than willing to sacrifice his own life to save Rabanastre even if he ended up not having to do so. A true hero!
Salty Rice
Member
Pretty much.
He is also my 2nd favourite Judge because of that.
You dont have to focus on a character or give him a boss fight to make him great.
Lady Bird
Matsuno's Goebbels
He explains it to Larsa at that time. He basically lost faith on those people because they keep finding ways to resist him. But because Larsa does not shares his opinion, that decision ultimately leads Larsa - and consequently Gabranth - to turn against Vayne.
So much for "I will suffer your slings and arrows".
Way to drop the ball on a potential Top 3 all-time FF villain.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Every time I see their costumes the first thing I'm wondering is: how the hell can they see with those kinds of helmets, lol.
Glass Rebel
Member
This belief that just because there are 5 Judges that you need to fight them all is some shonen anime shit.
jimmypython
Member
they should've tried to implement FFTA's law system: disable parts of the license for different regions of world and the player can "break" the law and be punished by the judges.
This is why I found the collectors edition "busts" to be very baffling. They weren't even "the bad guy" of the game, they were shitty minibosses, most of them faceless. Their designs are kind of cool but there are plenty of other games and even anime with a "council of bad guys" with cool designs that only exist so the protagonist can kill them in different ways.
The Emperor
Member
Well that is more a narrative technique which was meant to make the player feel how powerful barthandelus is.
But it fails as you never got to fight her and/or she wasn't developed to be very powerful
That would be so wonderful. No way it gonna happen though.
Dice//
Banned
I think it's what makes their potential feel even more wasted.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I loved their designs beneath their helmets too, especially Zargabaath and his 70s haircut
He was a politician, after all...
I loved their designs beneath their helmets too, especially Zargabaath and his 70s haircut
He has fan-art???
totally agree that their potential was wasted storywise.
Flipside is that they, as a group and individually, have some of the best villain designs in the industry - elegant and yet fearsome, faceless and yet full with character
and Judge Bergan's speech was the game's greatest writing achievement.
but otherwise, the story needed to make them more important and complex.
Flipside is that they, as a group and individually, have some of the best villain designs in the industry - elegant and yet fearsome, faceless and yet full with character
and Judge Bergan's speech was the game's greatest writing achievement.
but otherwise, the story needed to make them more important and complex.
Valonquar
Member
It felt like SE originally had plans to have an Occurian tied to each judge to me. Both the judges and the Occurians were such interesting characters and concepts and the execution felt extremely incomplete. The game is pretty long already, but the story really deserved another 20 hours of plot to utilize the amazing design & lore that was clearly developed to a certain point and then abandoned.
I can believe that, considering how FFT's main villains all had a pact with the Zodiacs.
Anyone recall how many Occuria show up during that one cutscene? If it's five then that strengthens the theory even further.
Lights and Waves
Member
Remember Unsung story? Yeah me neither.
FFXII is kinda obsolete for me.
Everything I ever wanted out of the game Xenoblade delivered in spade.
Even though the VA wasn't as good, it's still more charming for me in the end.
The judges are incredibly awesome and after FFTA you would have expected great things from them.
But no, they're just fucking generals and have nothing special to them.
You see 1 part where the brillance of FFTA could shine with Ghis basically launching what could be a Judge special gotojail card or something but it's nosell'd by a nethecite :/
Bergan had cool lines but you barely see him.
Gabranth is magnificent and would have really been awesome if you'd seen him all along the game but nope just make him a late game boss and that's it.
At least you had a reason to hate the judges in FFTA, in XII they were really just there.
Everything I ever wanted out of the game Xenoblade delivered in spade.
Even though the VA wasn't as good, it's still more charming for me in the end.
The judges are incredibly awesome and after FFTA you would have expected great things from them.
But no, they're just fucking generals and have nothing special to them.
You see 1 part where the brillance of FFTA could shine with Ghis basically launching what could be a Judge special gotojail card or something but it's nosell'd by a nethecite :/
Bergan had cool lines but you barely see him.
Gabranth is magnificent and would have really been awesome if you'd seen him all along the game but nope just make him a late game boss and that's it.
At least you had a reason to hate the judges in FFTA, in XII they were really just there.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
I've no major issue with their use. For the larger part other than one particular one they're largely there to display the political rift throughout the top of the chain in the Empire. Then you got fisticuffs with some too. Not really sure how much they could actually do with them since only one had any other story angle to him but that. The division between them makes it hard to use all of them as some menacing force too.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Their scenes, and especially the dialogue, are still among the best scenes in the Final Fantasy series.
I do, however, agree that as a whole they were underutilized, first, from a 'boss' perspective, a la The Cobra Unit in MGS V.
Moreso and second, from from a 'story antagonists' perspective or simply political actors (a la some of FF Tactics or Tactics Ogre enemy generals/knights). I wouldn't say the Judges are much less used than, say, some of the Knights of Lodis, for example, but they at least got one or two more recurrences out of them. It would have been nice for Bergen and, say, Zargabaath or Drace to show up a little more on par with Ghis, a la Gafgarion or Wiegraf or at least some of the Knights of Lodis that you meet multiple times.
At best, Bergen I guess is similar to Tactics's Ogres Knights of Lodis Martym rather Oz who shows up a bit more often or Barbas via his Lanselot scene -- let alone Ozma whom receives a side quest. Any additional scenes, not even considering direct part interaction, would have been nice for Drace or Zargabaath. A Judge becoming a sort of Ozma esque character and join the party temporarily (though I guess Reddas did used to be a Judge haha) would have been cool. Bergen is probably handled OK in that sort of Knights of Lodis way -- heck, or even a la FF VII's Shin-Ra executives -- but it would have been nice if we could have encountered him once or twice more a la Gafgarion, Wiegraf, Oz, or Barbas.
All that said, I hesitate to draw too much of a parallel with those games because I do think it's clear that as both a series and genre norm, FF XII would tend to have a more focused cast. It's probably not unlike FF VI or VIII-X, though I'd argue it's probably less so than FF VII which does utilize quite a few Shin-ra and Turk characters to great effect. But either way, I could see why someone may argue to focus more on just Vayne, Cid, and Gabranth. So my comment is more on what I would prefer; not what I think necessarily fits a Final Fantasy game, even one that was already known for breaking series' norms.
I do, however, agree that as a whole they were underutilized, first, from a 'boss' perspective, a la The Cobra Unit in MGS V.
Moreso and second, from from a 'story antagonists' perspective or simply political actors (a la some of FF Tactics or Tactics Ogre enemy generals/knights). I wouldn't say the Judges are much less used than, say, some of the Knights of Lodis, for example, but they at least got one or two more recurrences out of them. It would have been nice for Bergen and, say, Zargabaath or Drace to show up a little more on par with Ghis, a la Gafgarion or Wiegraf or at least some of the Knights of Lodis that you meet multiple times.
At best, Bergen I guess is similar to Tactics's Ogres Knights of Lodis Martym rather Oz who shows up a bit more often or Barbas via his Lanselot scene -- let alone Ozma whom receives a side quest. Any additional scenes, not even considering direct part interaction, would have been nice for Drace or Zargabaath. A Judge becoming a sort of Ozma esque character and join the party temporarily (though I guess Reddas did used to be a Judge haha) would have been cool. Bergen is probably handled OK in that sort of Knights of Lodis way -- heck, or even a la FF VII's Shin-Ra executives -- but it would have been nice if we could have encountered him once or twice more a la Gafgarion, Wiegraf, Oz, or Barbas.
All that said, I hesitate to draw too much of a parallel with those games because I do think it's clear that as both a series and genre norm, FF XII would tend to have a more focused cast. It's probably not unlike FF VI or VIII-X, though I'd argue it's probably less so than FF VII which does utilize quite a few Shin-ra and Turk characters to great effect. But either way, I could see why someone may argue to focus more on just Vayne, Cid, and Gabranth. So my comment is more on what I would prefer; not what I think necessarily fits a Final Fantasy game, even one that was already known for breaking series' norms.
Yep, I liked these guys better. They did feel like "Judges" reborn in a new game and, more importantly, I actually got to know most of them before fighting them and could sympathize and understand them, even if they were at times psychotic sociopaths.
And some of them have even stuck around and continue to get development.
The Judges in FFXII were a letdown to me, but the Imperial Legion of FFXIV are solid adversaries throughout.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
Yeah there's pretty cool though a bit fan service-y in my impression. I hesitate to that description since I tend to think things should be judged (hhh) on their own merits, and any criticism aside is in spite of the limitation of MMO raid gameplay and XIV probably still having the best presented MMO story.
But as much as I thought that the Garlean Empire and its Legatus and Praefectus generals and commanders (or whatever they're called) were awesome, I also felt they were basically shamelessly appealing to the coolest parts of XII Judges and VI Magitek haha.
But as much as I thought that the Garlean Empire and its Legatus and Praefectus generals and commanders (or whatever they're called) were awesome, I also felt they were basically shamelessly appealing to the coolest parts of XII Judges and VI Magitek haha.
FFXIV is basically one giant love-letter to FF fans that's the "greatest hits" of all prior games. Gold Saucer, Triple Triad, Magitek Armours, Judges... hell, even Blitzball is coming to the game soon enough.
It's bluntly obvious and yet...
I love it. All of it. The Warring Triad's return. Facing off against Ozma from FF9 again. Having Ultros and Gilgamesh make an appearance. It's such blatant fanservice, and yet I can't help but gobble up every morsel.
You fight 3 out of 5 judges. Draceis the "good" judge that believes in Larsa, same as the main party so it wouldn't make sense for us to fight it.
Zargabaath is, as one poster said before, the one with the morals and the brains. Maybe he could have been on the final dungeon before Gabranth but then again he was fighting on another capital ship.
Combat-wise we got to fight the judges that mattered. It would have been nice for them to have a well established arc like Ghis did bit i don't find this issue to be as big as the OP believes.
Want shitty underdeveloped evil characters? Boy do I have a game for you! Have you ever heard about the Niflheim empire, its emperor and this Verstael guy?
Zargabaath is, as one poster said before, the one with the morals and the brains. Maybe he could have been on the final dungeon before Gabranth but then again he was fighting on another capital ship.
Combat-wise we got to fight the judges that mattered. It would have been nice for them to have a well established arc like Ghis did bit i don't find this issue to be as big as the OP believes.
Want shitty underdeveloped evil characters? Boy do I have a game for you! Have you ever heard about the Niflheim empire, its emperor and this Verstael guy?