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[UtterlyPerplexed]

Underutilised? Undercooked? Underdeveloped? Yup. But such is Square Enix and its descent into perpetual development hell when trying to develop modern Final Fantasies of late that at this point I just appreciate the fact that they get some screen time and boss encounters with three out of the five.

At the very least, Archadia has more chances to truly shine as antagonists than a certain counterpart in another mainline Final Fantasy ga-

Want shitty underdeveloped evil characters? Boy do I have a game for you! Have you ever heard about the Niflheim empire, its emperor and this Verstael guy?

Yup, pretty much.

 

[ULTROS!]

Want shitty underdeveloped evil characters? Boy do I have a game for you! Have you ever heard about the Niflheim empire, its emperor and this Verstael guy?

He got development in the Episode Prompto DLC, though it should have been really in the game.

 

[Tiamant]

He got development in the Episode Prompto DLC, though it should have been really in the game.

I refuse to take into consideration characters that should have been developed in the main game.

FFVII DLC: episode Turks
FFVIII DLC: episode Adel
FFIX DLC: episode Garland
FFX DLC: episode Yunalesca
FFXII DLC: episode Cidolfus
FFXIII DLC: episode Jih... Oh, wait.

 

[KyanMehwulfe]

FFXIV is basically one giant love-letter to FF fans that's the "greatest hits" of all prior games. Gold Saucer, Triple Triad, Magitek Armours, Judges... hell, even Blitzball is coming to the game soon enough.

It's bluntly obvious and yet... <snip> I love it. All of it. The Warring Triad's return. Facing off against Ozma from FF9 again. Having Ultros and Gilgamesh make an appearance. It's such blatant fanservice, and yet I can't help but gobble up every morsel.

Oh, for sure. Even things like... the other day while googling some FF Tactics lore, I noticed even Worker-8 (the recruitable robot that Mustadio activates) makes an appearance as a dungeon boss. And even though I usually only play during free log-in weekends and such, every time I log in I love all the references. Golden Saucer is really cool IMO.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

XV makes XIIs story seem like a masterpiece tbh

I really love XV, but... What.

 

[Keym]

I refuse to take into consideration characters that should have been developed in the main game.

FFVII DLC: episode Turks
FFVIII DLC: episode Adel
FFIX DLC: episode Garland
FFX DLC: episode Yunalesca
FFXII DLC: episode Cidolfus
FFXIII DLC: episode Jih... Oh, wait.

Actually, we kinda need an episode Adel...

 

[mrlion]

Hmm I also disagree that FF14 didn't handle judges that well but FF12's story wasn't that well written to begin with. Its my favorite FF because of the gameplay and its mechanics.

 

[yunbuns]

The way they drop the ball with Vayne is right up there with my disappointment with the Judges.

It was really interesting seeing him earn the trust of the people of Rabanastre while simultaneously performing underhanded assassinations and other political moves behind the scenes. It made him more three dimensional than the usual FF villain who conquers through fear and power.

Then in the final act, he inexplicably decides to blow up Rabanastre. Like, why did you spend so much time getting the people to love you if you were going to carpet bomb them anyway?

It honestly felt like he had to do something objectively evil and high-stakes, or the story would have kept going for another 30 hours.

I still feel to this day that if the plot had been a bit different, Vayne really could've been a party member you never saw coming or at least a Rufus Shinra-type figure with the Occuria being the real villains. I feel like a character who had a 'the ends justify the means' type attitude would have been cool to interact with throughout the game. Plus he literally fights with his FISTS.

It also would have been nice if we had gotten a party member from Rossaria. I also didn't like how most of the party members where either from Dalmasca or had heavy ties there. It made such a huge world seem incredibly small.

 

[Garlador]

I still feel to this day that if the plot had been a bit different, Vayne really could've been a party member you never saw coming or at least a Rufus Shinra-type figure with the Occuria being the real villains. I feel like a character who had a 'the ends justify the means' type attitude would have been cool to interact with throughout the game. Plus he literally fights with his FISTS.

It also would have been nice if we had gotten a party member from Rossaria. I also hadn't how most of the party members where either from Dalmasca or had heavy ties there. It made such a huge world seem incredibly small.

FFXII is good - it IS... but it's also my most disappointing Final Fantasy game. Oh, I hate others so much more, but FFXII is SO good at some things and then others you can see the compromises and deadlines hitting fast and furious and suddenly the story just starts leap-frogging over development and story bits and it just sort of... ends.

I like every character - even Vaan! - but they never take time to really slow down, sit down, and bond. They don't form any real connective friendships or have any personal heart-to-heart moments among each other. It's a party of convenience, and that's a bit of a bummer for me because I don't see Ashe and Penelo having moments where they get to know each other on a personal level, any moment where Basch and Fran discover the things they have in common, etc.

The game lacks those "campfire" scenes so many of the franchise have that permit the characters to share their histories and emotions and thoughts with the others openly.

We never got this:

The Judges, Vayne, Cid, the core cast... we never got close enough to see how the events around them were affecting them and, in turn, having their relationships strengthened or altered through the circumstances.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Actually, we kinda need an episode Adel...

FFVIII could have used a few episodes actually

And we did get an Episode Turks

And by we I mean only Japan

 

[Bolivar687]

You fight 3 out of 5 judges. Draceis the "good" judge that believes in Larsa, same as the main party so it wouldn't make sense for us to fight it.

Zargabaath is, as one poster said before, the one with the morals and the brains. Maybe he could have been on the final dungeon before Gabranth but then again he was fighting on another capital ship.

Combat-wise we got to fight the judges that mattered. It would have been nice for them to have a well established arc like Ghis did bit i don't find this issue to be as big as the OP believes.

This is how I feel, the judges were one part of a really large story and you wouldnt want them stealing the show. Each one gets a small arc while Gabranth looms largely over the story (he's the title logo).

 

[SOLDIER]

FFXII is good - it IS... but it's also my most disappointing Final Fantasy game. Oh, I hate others so much more, but FFXII is SO good at some things and then others you can see the compromises and deadlines hitting fast and furious and suddenly the story just starts leap-frogging over development and story bits and it just sort of... ends.

I like every character - even Vaan! - but they never take time to really slow down, sit down, and bond. They don't form any real connective friendships or have any personal heart-to-heart moments among each other. It's a party of convenience, and that's a bit of a bummer for me because I don't see Ashe and Penelo having moments where they get to know each other on a personal level, any moment where Basch and Fran discover the things they have in common, etc.

9 times out of 10, the leading ladies in an FF party will become best friends.

I bet Ashe wouldn't even remember Penelo's name if they crossed paths a year or two later.

 

[Keym]

It also would have been nice if we had gotten a party member from Rossaria. I also hadn't how most of the party members where either from Dalmasca or had heavy ties there. It made such a huge world seem incredibly small.

You want to talk about wasted opportunities? How about THIS guy?

Shows up in one cutscene. Cool, funny. Personality similar to Edgar's. Is a Cid. Why was he not a party member??

 

[dan2026]

Why do modernish Final Fantasy games struggle so much with cohesive storytelling?
You'd think the story would be the first thing you nail down.

Also Vaan should never of been in XII.
'Hey guys we focus tested the game with a group of teenage girls and they seem to like him, so I guess he's the main character now...'

 

[c1d]

Couldn't agree more OP, I remember playing through the game constantly expecting something to go down regarding the judges (especially Gabranth)

 

[cubicle47b]

The only problem with Vaan is his vest and haircut.

 

[sublimit]

My biggest problem with FFXII was that it didn't had some type of log diary that i could go back and read synopses of the most important events in the game.Once i started getting serious with the hunts and sidequests i had completely forgotten who was who and what their agenda was.The only one who made a lasting impression from the Judges was Gabranth but even then i was mostly confused by whatever plot there was.

But yeah their armor designs were some of the best designs in the series.

 

[Riposte]

Also, a special shout-out to Final Fantasy XIV for taking the Judge concept and doing it way better:

Though they go by a different name, the Imperial Legatus are clearly inspired by the Judges, and are far and away better handled and significantly cooler. You actually get a proper boss fight with the lady in this one, and she doesn't even go down the first time. Please play FFXIV if you aren't already.

You are talking about characters who appear in as many or fewer cutscenes as the lesser Judges do, spread even further apart (and to be frank, are way less charismatic, because FFXIV's VA and script is a few steps behind XII's). Two of those characters get almost no screentime or development and are almost entirely inconsequential (they are Bergan-tier, but without any memorable lines). Baelsar is pretty much wasted in a similar fashion (although he does get a few flashback appearances) despite being the face of the game's relaunch and is kind of dumbed-down personality-wise from his original source (he is still liked, in spite of how he was used, because of that strong foundation). One of them does get a decent amount of screentime and characterization, but

Spoiler

this happens after ARR's main story featuring the four and after he's more or less stopped filling that "judge" role

. Would've at least went with Zenos, though he's just one dude rather than a group of "judges" (and also kind of a blatant anime trope).

I agree with the general point that the Judges are wasted potential (in fact the whole game's plot is missing huge chunks where they could've shined), but to say the FFXIV's Baelsar and his Tribunes don't have the same problem (if not worse) reeks of bias - the lowered expectations of playing a MMO without readjusting when comparing it to a single-player/mainline entry.

Speaking of lowered expectations:

FFXIV is basically one giant love-letter to FF fans that's the "greatest hits" of all prior games. Gold Saucer, Triple Triad, Magitek Armours, Judges... hell, even Blitzball is coming to the game soon enough.

It's bluntly obvious and yet...

In other words, it's the least original game in the Final Fantasy mainline. FF has really been ups its own ass lately within its spin-offs, which have turned from mostly original concepts to fanservice crossovers, but it's a shame that even a mainline game is like that now, even though it started off pretty unique aesthetic/lore wise. (That plus shamelessly asset recycling from FFX, FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII, and even Dissidia, despite all of those games having their own art design).

Also Vaan should never of been in XII.
'Hey guys we focus tested the game with a group of teenage girls and they seem to like him, so I guess he's the main character now...'

Pretty sure there was no focus-testing involved (and no game to focus test by the point he became the main/perspective character, which is very early).

 

[Zafir]

I like every character - even Vaan! - but they never take time to really slow down, sit down, and bond. They don't form any real connective friendships or have any personal heart-to-heart moments among each other. It's a party of convenience, and that's a bit of a bummer for me because I don't see Ashe and Penelo having moments where they get to know each other on a personal level, any moment where Basch and Fran discover the things they have in common, etc.

The game lacks those "campfire" scenes so many of the franchise have that permit the characters to share their histories and emotions and thoughts with the others openly.



We never got this:


The Judges, Vayne, Cid, the core cast... we never got close enough to see how the events around them were affecting them and, in turn, having their relationships strengthened or altered through the circumstances.

Yeah.

Honestly I don't think I ever hated Vaan or Penelo that much really. They were kind of just shoehorned in a bit sure, but I could have gotten over it if they'd(and the rest of the cast) had been utilised better in terms of scenes.

If there had been more random dialogue it could have solved the issue of the poor story pacing too. Suddenly a trek through 4/5 areas might not seem so bad if you occasionally got some banter between characters. You don't get much at all though. I remember on the way to Archadia you get a short scene relating to Balthier's back story (hinting at what to come) and that was pretty much it for the entire journey across the world.

 

[TheCed]

I really wonder what could've been had XII stayed on track with the original vision.

After Playing FFT and seeing how well Delita and Wiegraf were done. I'm really sad that Matsuno couldn't finish the game.

Saddly, FFXII was only the beginning of the problematic developement of the FF Franchise.

 

[cubicle47b]

Party banter is one thing the original Dragon Age did so well. It's a shame there really isn't any here.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

Zargabaath was actually set to appear in the cancelled FFXII sequel, "Fortress". He would have had a major arc in that game as an rival/antagonist to the player character, Gabranth (aka Basch).

 

[Garlador]

In other words, it's the least original game in the Final Fantasy mainline. FF has really been ups its own ass lately within its spin-offs, which have turned from mostly original concepts to fanservice crossovers, but it's a shame that even a mainline game is like that now, even though it started off pretty unique aesthetic/lore wise. (That plus shamelessly asset recycling from FFX, FFXI, FFXII, FFXIII, and even Dissidia, despite all of those games having their own art design).

Just because FFXIV is a giant love-letter to the series hardly means it's not original. If anything, FFXIV is holding a monopoly on their best storytellers right now with exquisite, character-driven content updates. It borrows, yes, but every Final Fantasy game borrows to an extent from the previous ones.

FFXIV is crammed full of amazing original content, and many of its original characters, races, lore, and story moments are things I hope are referenced or appear in future numbered titles as well. It's got a charm that's uniquely its own while also taking inspiration from the best that prior Final Fantasy titles had to offer.

It's an enormous discredit to how good FFXIV is - especially its updates - to say it's the "least original" game in the series when it's stuffed full of more original content than any Final Fantasy game I can recall. (Heck, FFXII's world of Ivalice isn't even original since it's an already established world from FFT and Vagrant Story).

Or are we going to just forget that the original Final Fantasy titles just stole D&D and classic fantasy monsters wholesale instead of inventing their own? I grew up fighting generic imps, goblins, mummies, zombies, minotaurs, ghouls, medusas, trolls, vampires, and countless other nondescript beasties long before the series started slowly added in staples like Bombs, Tonberries, Chocobos, Cactaurs, Moogles, etc.

Meanwhile, Hildibrand content alone in Final Fantasy XIV is... unique... enough to justify the whole game's existence. You probably won't find much else like it... anywhere.

 

[Meowster]

Actually, we kinda need an episode Adel...

I would personally fund it tbh.

Come back down to the director's chair, Kitase!!!

 

[Bebpo]

XIV judges are such a step down from Ivalice Judges. The gas mask design and garish colors (Zenos wtf) kill the sleek cool look of Ivalice judges.

I really hope we get real Ivalice style judges for return to Ivalice.

 

[Garlador]

XIV judges are such a step down from Ivalice Judges. The gas mask design and garish colors (Zenos wtf) kill the sleek cool look of Ivalice judges.

I really hope we get real Ivalice style judges for return to Ivalice.

Zenos isn't really a "judge" or a member of the Imperial legion. He's royalty, heir to the throne of the Garlemald Empire, and son of the Emperor.

He comes from a family that dresses to the nines like this:

He fits right in.

 

[UltimaKilo]

I must agree that from FFXII onward, all the stories in the mainline FFs, I clouding its characters have been disappointing.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Zargabaath was actually set to appear in the cancelled FFXII sequel, "Fortress". He would have had a major arc in that game as an rival/antagonist to the player character, Gabranth (aka Basch).

Fortress is right up there with Mega Man Legends 3 as a major frontrunner for the "most tragic cancellation" award.

I love the story about the dev team sending official FFXII artwork over to Square only to have them tell them it didn't look "Final Fantasy" enough. They really wanted to shut that game down.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Ghis was pretty good. He walks around Bhujerba being a prick, and then he manages to beat the party by having placed a mole among them. But his hubris comes rather quickly. He had an own agenda but already explodes the minute he lets it out. He's pretty much your main advisary during the first chapter.

Drace had her downfall coming to her. She was too honest from the first moment we see her. Still, she could've defected aiding the party of some sorts. She's fridged after her 2 appearances.

Gabranth is around for the whole game, it is he who starts it all with the treason.

That other guy fought after the Shrine is a jobber.

 

[Keym]

Fortress is right up there with Mega Man Legends 3 as a major frontrunner for the "most tragic cancellation" award.

I love the story about the dev team sending official FFXII artwork over to Square only to have them tell them it didn't look "Final Fantasy" enough. They really wanted to shut that game down.

On the other hand, a Final Fantasy by western devs sounded like a terrible idea.

 

[BocoDragon]

On the other hand, a Final Fantasy by western devs sounded like a terrible idea.

Maybe a decade ago when we were all weeaboos.

I'm sure a western developed FF could work fine. After all, this supposed sanctity of pure Japanese-developed FF is, uh..... long gone.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

On the other hand, a Final Fantasy by western devs sounded like a terrible idea.

I dunno, seemed to work fine for Metroid.

XII's setting is pretty western by FF standards, too, for what it's worth.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Zargabaath has to be Rutger Hauer.

 

[Keym]

Maybe a decade ago when we were all weeaboos.

I'm sure a western developed FF could work fine. After all, this supposed sanctity of pure Japanese-developed FF is, uh..... long gone.

Yeah, things were different back then and most japanese titles that were outsourced didn't turn out so well, to put it mildly. Nowadays, they can't do much worse than SE has been doing themselves for the last few years.