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The Judges of Final Fantasy XII: A Waste of Potential (Spoilers)

SOLDIER

Member
There are unmarked spoilers for Final Fantasy XII in this thread. Proceed with caution.

I've got a lot of issues with how Final Fantasy XII tells its story (mostly in how it doesn't do so cohesively), but I wanted to talk about the one element that disappoints me the most to this day: the Judges.

OakvYIZ.jpg


For years, we would gloss over this iconic image of the five antagonists as FFXII continued its six year development cycle (which, prior to FFXV, was the longest time it took for an FF game to release). A considerable amount of hype was built up around these amazingly-designed armored bad-asses, with early reviewers calling them "Sephiroth times five" (because now and forever, Sephiroth is going to be the main metric to which all FF bad guys are measured....even if you liked Kefka more).

Instead, what we got were five mooks that barely got as much development as the Turks, or even Seifer's Disciplinary Committee. Instead, the Judges were more like FFIV's Four Fiends: powerful enemies that came and went the moment they made their appearance as the latest boss to take down.

Actually, scratch that...the Judges don't even reach that level, since you don't even fight all of them (and no, the tacked-on boss trial after the fact does not count).

Let's run through each Judge one at a time, starting with the one that got the most development as well as a complete arc throughout FFXII's story.

judge-ghis-final-fantasy-xii-14.3.jpg


Oh? You were expecting Gabranth? Too bad, because that honor goes to Judge Ghis.

"But he was the first of the Judges to go down!", you may protest. Even so, Ghis was also the one Judge to have a complete story that is witnessed to completion by the main cast. The group encounters him engaging in the strong-arm political maneuvers that Archadia is known for, they fight him as the first major boss battle with a party, they continue to engage with him when he's out of the mask (adding an extra bit of character that puts him above a simple faceless underling), and they are even present when he is done in by his own hubris. As villains go, Ghis met all the criteria of a decent threat, brief as though his time may have been.

But that's still way more screen-time than Judge Drace got.

9180-2079593190.jpg


Boy oh boy, Judge Drace....maybe people blocked it out of their minds, but this was the single worst handling of a female character in the history of the FF franchise. She exists in exactly two cutscenes, the second of which she is fridged as soon as she is introduced. It's still baffling to this day how she got top billing in the marketing only to be so unceremoniously shanked faster than any character I've ever seen in a JRPG. Her role was only to make the other bad guys look badder.


judge-bergan-final-fantasy-xii-94.6.jpg


Speaking of which, Judge Bergan at least had a cool boss fight and some neat one-liners, but that was about it. He was the hound-type of enemy, a one-and-done encounter that was challenging and violent, but otherwise could have been handled by any other type of enemy.

judge-zargabaath-final-fantasy-xii-4.26.jpg


And then we get to Judge Zargabaath, who was such a nothing character that his name wouldn't show up in Google's autocomplete. Seriously, how many here even remembered his name?

Zargabaath gets an honorary sticker as the one surviving Judge in the game, showing up in the ending CG to bark a single order and...that's it. It was a role that any random imperial mook could have done instead. There is perhaps no other character that perfectly illustrates FFXII's cut narrative, when he literally has nothing to do throughout the story.

judge-gabranth-final-fantasy-xii-15.2.jpg


Finally we get to Judge Gabranth, aka the only Judge anyone liked. Truth be told, Gabranth was a decent antagonist, someone who wasn't entirely evil, but chose the path that he felt was the best for his people and kingdom. He did unmistakably evil things, but there was a deeper purpose to it, and he didn't just mindlessly obey orders.

But, much like main antagonist Vayne, he does a 180 in his convictions after a single boss fight. Despite all the big speeches he makes throughout the battle, he changes his mind and aids the heroes in bringing down Vayne in a final moment of redemption that did not feel entirely earned. Rather, the clock was ticking on wrapping up FFXII's troubled story, so we just whizzed right to the punchline. Also, he probably would have gotten much more development if Basch was the main character like it was originally planned.

Also, a special shout-out to Final Fantasy XIV for taking the Judge concept and doing it way better:

wx0VVoJ.png


Though they go by a different name, the Imperial Legatus are clearly inspired by the Judges, and are far and away better handled and significantly cooler. You actually get a proper boss fight with the lady in this one, and she doesn't even go down the first time. Please play FFXIV if you aren't already.

But heck, even the Judges in Final Fantasy Tactics Advance were more interesting than the ones from FFXII:

final_fantasy_tactics_advance_judge_card_law_break_v2.jpg


They may not have had any actual character development, but they at least functioned as the game's defining mechanic. You got the whole story about their roles in FFTA, and you had to constantly change your gameplay tactics built around their arbitrary Rules. That's a much more consistent concept to deal with than half of the missing baddies in FFXII.

Seriously, I'm sure a lot of people are going to argue otherwise, but that's where I stand with them. It's a sore spot that's never going to heal, especially as I'm running through the game gain courtesy of TZA (which I'm enjoying, all things considered).
 

Isotropy

Member
I can't agree that XIV's "judges" were better handled.

XII's had much more atmosphere. Sometimes less is more - they had a strong presence at the edges of the story, I think it was more an issue of the marketing misrepresenting their role.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Agree 100%. You can tell how the narrative fell off in the back half of the game by the way Ghis is treated compared to the others. And even that is no excuse for how Drace was handled.

These are characters that should have maintained a threatening and consistent presence throughout the game. While much cartoonier and more overtly anime, I think taking a look at Tales of Symphonia's Desian Leaders is a good case study on how to properly treat a group of themed bad guys. Each of them got their Ghis-like arc, each one was fleshed out as a character, and each one had a boss fight with their own unique fighting style.

Modern Final Fantasy needs to start delivering on its concepts. The judges, FFXIII's Jihl and Yaag, and XV's imperial baddies are all shameful examples of wasted potential. Great foundations for good bad guys in all of them, but nothing more.

Gabranth was awesome though.
 
TBH, I felt Drace was gonna get fridged once she showed out of everyone she had a hint of morals. I guess it's kind of hard to keep that kind of character around when some of the other judges were twirling mustaches. Gabranth I actually liked, though I think judges should have had more of a presence than they actually end up having.
 
Agree 100%. You can tell how the narrative fell off in the back half of the game by the way Ghis is treated compared to the others. And even that is no excuse for how Drace was handled.

These are characters that should have maintained a threatening and consistent presence throughout the game. While much cartoonier and more overtly anime, I think taking a look at Tales of Symphonia's Desian Leaders is a good case study on how to properly treat a group of themed bad guys. Each of them got their Ghis-like arc, each one was fleshed out as a character, and each one had a boss fight with their own unique fighting style.

Modern Final Fantasy needs to start delivering on its concepts. The judges, FFXIII's Jihl and Yaag, and XV's imperial baddies are all shameful examples of wasted potential. Great foundations for good bad guys in all of them, but nothing more.

Hard to deliver when it's an immense struggle to just get a game out. From XII onwards every mainline Final Fantasy has had a mess of a development.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
It's hard to cognitively balance how poorly Drace was handled and cast aside with how it's also one of the best cutscenes in a game full of good cutscenes.

The classical theater actors, the fantastic period-appropriate localization, and the multi-layered familial and political intrigue that doesn't handhold the audience combine to really rise above what you'd expect.
 
Does the story of XII end on a note that feels complete/satisfactory? I've been seeing more and more how it trails off after the first half.
 

Bucca

Fools are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.
FF12's Judge designs still (IMO) remain the best fucking character designs for antagonists in the whole series.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
Does the story of XII end on a note that feels complete/satisfactory? I've been seeing more and more how it trails off after the first half.

It ends on a note that's relatively satisfying in regards to the playable party characters, but it's also a game that gets much of its atmosphere from "politics on the world stage," and there's never really an ending to the "global" story, just a feeling of optimism and looking to the future.
 

kiaaa

Member
I can't agree that XIV's "judges" were better handled.

XII's had much more atmosphere. Sometimes less is more - they had a strong presence at the edges of the story, I think it was more an issue of the marketing misrepresenting their role.

It's been a long time, but I don't remember them having almost any presence in the story period.
 
It ends on a note that's relatively satisfying in regards to the playable party characters, but it's also a game that gets much of its atmosphere from "politics on the world stage," and there's never really an ending to the "global" story, just a feeling of optimism and looking to the future.

I can live with that lol.
 

Isotropy

Member
Does the story of XII end on a note that feels complete/satisfactory? I've been seeing more and more how it trails off after the first half.

The ending's fine - the pacing issues are mostly the middle third. It goes out with a CG-packed bang and everything is wrapped up, then you get an IX-style look to the future and how people's lives are going.
 
I wish the rerelease/remake had made at least some marginal narrative changes to make it a bit more coherent or to add more development.

It's just such a boring, nothing slog through a narrative that mars probably the best pure gameplay IMO in the franchise.
 

120v

Member
the way the game was marketed i assumed these guys were like, the SSJ4s of the FFXII world or something. playing the game i was so confused
 

ryseing

Member
Does the sub in FFXIV work in real time or in game time?

Real time. $15/month + you get a month when you buy the game.

There's a free trial to level 35. If you did that and bought the game with the free month at that point you could likely get through at least Heavensward.

I recommend it. I'm almost done with the base ARR stuff and quite enjoying myself with the exception of the minor grind between story quests.
 

aadiboy

Member
It seems like your complaints revolve around screen time and built up hype rather than their roles in the story. I'm guessing you wanted each judge to have a main villain-esque arc in the game to feel satisfied, but that's obviously not possible.

I for one loved that this group of antagonists all had their own ambitions and allegiances. Ghis for himself, Gabranth and Drace for Larsa, Bergan for Vayne, and the neutral Zargabaath for whoever is in charge at the time. If Vayne and Cidolfus are main antagonists, then we could consider the Judge Magisters supporting antagonists.

Also, Gabranth had the most development and is really emblematic of the redemption theme in the story, which is why he is the logo of the game. And obviously, he's the catalyst that sets the whole events of the game into motion.

Every character isn't meant to have a full character arc in a story. Every character doesn't need to have a full character arc in a story. Some characters can serve a purpose in the plot and not be needed beyond that purpose. What's next, complaints that Tomaj and Kites didn't get enough backstory?
 
I thought I read somewhere that they had expanded boss battles in TZA?

The espers in XII vanilla were also a colossal flop. Hopefully TZA makes them worthwhile.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
I thought I read somewhere that they had expanded boss battles in TZA?

The espers in XII vanilla were also a colossal flop. Hopefully TZA makes them worthwhile.

I...don't believe this is true.
However, "Trial Mode" features
a battle against all the Judges at once, including those who weren't fought in the game proper. This is the mode's final - and ultimate - battle.

EDIT: This is assuming that TZA doesn't have additional changes in this regard from the original International Zodiac Edition.
 

Mr_Moogle

Member
I was more pissed off that you never get to go to Rozarria. FFXII's development hell cost us a lot of good stuff. There we're supposed to be controllable air ship battles too irrc, not to mention Matsuno's mental health.
 

jett

D-Member
The world and lore is amazing, what are you talking about?

Honestly it's been eleven years since I played the game, so I can't give too many specifics, but I was sorely disappointed by anything that wasn't gameplay. World isn't so bad, but the lore crashes and burns with the Occuria shit.
 
i was surprised they didnt adapt FFTAs system. it had a lot of potential. i also liked that in maps without judges there was permadeath (so judges acting as a lifesaver through their rules)
 

duckroll

Member
FFXIV in no way uses the concept "better", in fact it uses it in the exact same way. In the end we're talking about characters who are wearing really cool armor designed to make them look unique and imposing, but beyond that they are just mostly soldiers who have different reasons to be there. Reasons which aren't always fully explored because they are supporting characters.

None of them in FFXIV ever "live up" to being a true Darth Vader villain or whatever expectations people have of them. They show up in a couple (literally a couple) of cutscenes spread over a 100+ hour campaign. You beat them in boss fights. They die and talk a bit about themselves, or someone else says something about them later, that's it.
 

Slater

Banned
FFXIV in no way uses the concept "better", in fact it uses it in the exact same way. In the end we're talking about characters who are wearing really cool armor designed to make them look unique and imposing, but beyond that they are just mostly soldiers who have different reasons to be there. Reasons which aren't always fully explored because they are supporting characters.

None of them in FFXIV ever "live up" to being a true Darth Vader villain or whatever expectations people have of them. They show up in a couple (literally a couple) of cutscenes spread over a 100+ hour campaign. You beat them in boss fights. They die and talk a bit about themselves, or someone else says something about them later, that's it.

We never fight Z or Drace tho. All 4 Legatus in XIV at least have a boss fight and are relevant to the story during it.
 

traveler

Not Wario
I said I wanted a new Matsuno Ivalice game in the OT, but, screw it, I'd take a full remake of 12, with the entire backhalf of the story redone. Complete and refine the original vision till everything about the game is perfect. So much potential in the setup of the game, and the fundamentals stay great throughout the hefty amount of content. Just a shame the script and narrative fall apart and leave the political intrigue behind as the game goes on.
 

MoonFrog

Member
Tbh I never got far in XII and wanted to give it another go in light of this remaster. I probably still will down the line, but this is a discouraging take.

I kind of held on to hope of XII being an intensely political take on Final Fantasy, which, well, if you're political actors are largely just window dressing to more rote JRPG plot than it isn't a particularly political game :p.

So I'd hope I'd walk away with a different impression or that there is strong political drama elsewhere in the story.
 
In light of FFXIII and XV.... XII feels 300% complete

Eh...

FFXIV in no way uses the concept "better", in fact it uses it in the exact same way. In the end we're talking about characters who are wearing really cool armor designed to make them look unique and imposing, but beyond that they are just mostly soldiers who have different reasons to be there. Reasons which aren't always fully explored because they are supporting characters.

None of them in FFXIV ever "live up" to being a true Darth Vader villain or whatever expectations people have of them. They show up in a couple (literally a couple) of cutscenes spread over a 100+ hour campaign. You beat them in boss fights. They die and talk a bit about themselves, or someone else says something about them later, that's it.

I do agree though that XIV doesn't really use the "Judges" concept in any interesting way.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
In light of FFXIII and XV.... XII feels 300% complete

No way, all 3 had issues. XIII felt the most complete but its story isn't what I call comprehensible.

XII had issues in the story when the party departs Rabanastre.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
No way, all 3 had issues. XIII felt the most complete but its story isn't what I call comprehensible.

XII had issues in the story when the party departs Rabanastre.
For me it fell apart shortly after you rescue Basch, around the Sandsea. The story doesn't get bad, it just... vanishes for a good while before suddenly resurfacing again

Out of XII, XIII, and XV, I think XII actually has the most glaring amount of missing chunks despite telling a more complete story than XV, if only because it's impossible to tell what was dropped in development or never left Matsuno's mind. With XV, even though it was told poorly, we at least know the general gist of what a complete game might have looked like.

I agree, to summarize:

FFXII: The story looks awesoooooo.... Huh where did it go?
FFXIII: It's complete but... What?
FFXV: Cliffnotes
Haha, basically
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
For me it fell apart shortly after you rescue Basch, around the Sandsea. The story doesn't get bad, it just... vanishes for a good while before suddenly resurfacing again

Out of XII, XIII, and XV, I think XII actually has the most glaring amount of missing chunks despite telling a more complete story than XV, if only because it's impossible to tell what was dropped in development or never left Matsuno's mind. With XV, even though it was told poorly, we at least know the general gist of what a complete game might have looked like.

I agree, to summarize:

FFXII: The story looks awesoooooo.... Huh where did it go?
FFXIII: It's complete but... What?
FFXV: Cliffnotes
 
Slightly off-topic, but this is exactly how I felt about Jihl and Rosch in FFXIII. Both of them die with almost no development, but I loved their designs and they struck me right away as interesting people.
 
Slightly off-topic, but this is exactly how I felt about Jihl and Rosch in FFXIII. Both of them die with almost no development, but I loved their designs and they struck me right away as interesting people.

Jill at least had some story. She was the antagonist for like a whole chapter of the game. Sazh's scenes with her are one of the most memorable parts of the story imo.

I literally do not remember Rosch at all.
 

Felessan

Member
None of them in FFXIV ever "live up" to being a true Darth Vader villain or whatever expectations people have of them. They show up in a couple (literally a couple) of cutscenes spread over a 100+ hour campaign. You beat them in boss fights. They die and talk a bit about themselves, or someone else says something about them later, that's it.
I doubt that any villain in FF14 will ever be of Darth Vader status, even Ascians does not fill this role, as FF14 more focused on complex relationship chart than one super-villain.
For what they are main cast of armored corps (White Raven, Baltazar, Nero) handled rather well with their stories. Yes, Nero (as only survived member) presence is not that big now, as there are already tons of other NPCs competing for screen time, but it still good to know that he was not simply discarded to oblivion as "previous expansion villain"
(one should remember that ff14 judges were a main force in Legacy, too bad that part is not available now, and 2.0 is only second half of the story)
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Jill at least had some story. She was the antagonist for like a whole chapter of the game. Sazh's scenes with her are one of the most memorable parts of the story imo.

I literally do not remember Rosch at all.

The problem with Jihl is
her unepic death, like... She just died by a small spell.
 

Kain

Member
Agree more or less, but I was more bummed by the lack of a threat on their part than anything. They were just mid-bosses at best, not even Gabranth was much of a threat.

Also you forget another judge (huge spoilers)

the leading man himself was one, so it's not a complete waste of potential right?
 
I agree its a wasted opportunity. The judges as characters present themselves as inherently interesting as soon as you see them. The armor, the voices, the power, the presence ect. makes the player want more instantly, at least in my case.

That said, The Judges were not the main characters or the central antagonist to be dealt with. They definitely left a lot to be desired, especially me and Zagabbath because he was bad ass looking and I was happy he survived. So Im not a hundred percent torn up they got skipped over a bit, but im not happy either.
 

SoulUnison

Banned
The problem with Jihl is
her unepic death, like... She just died by a small spell.

From the cutscene, it looks like she literally gets one-shot-insta-killed by what appears to be an off-hand basic "Ruin" spell, which is literally the weakest magic possible.
Maybe it was supposed to show us just how frail "regular" humans are, since the playable party is all l'Cie?

Then again, she jumps down from that platform that's easily 30 feet in the air and lands like it was nothing, then she faces down the entire party with a gun drawn on her and acts as though it's barely a threat...
Didn't stop it from being a massively disappointing anti-climax, though.
 
I really wonder what could've been had XII stayed on track with the original vision.

I wonder about this way more than I probably should. I think, if Matsuno was present for the entirety of the game's development, it would have ended up being a lot better in many aspects.
 

ULTROS!

People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
∀ Narayan;243227829 said:
I wonder about this way more than I probably should. I think, if Matsuno was present for the entirety of the game's development, it would have ended up being a lot better in many aspects.

It would have probably been released in 2010 too!

But then again, they shouldn't have made an ambitious story and world for this game because we all know what happens if you do that (see FNC).
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
∀ Narayan;243227829 said:
I wonder about this way more than I probably should. I think, if Matsuno was present for the entirety of the game's development, it would have ended up being a lot better in many aspects.
Same. It really does have a great setup, its intro is right up there with the best in the franchise, and the Occuria plotline is conceptually very interesting.

In my head I wonder if it would have tied into Tactics a bit more had he stayed... like St. Ajora, hints at what caused the calamity that got rid of airships and the non-Hume races, etc. I don't think we would have seen any of this regardless but maybe it would have at least been referenced (and maybe the Occuria had something to do with it). Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but I mean, the zodiac themes and the espers/Lucavi demons are there, so...

I think we would have seen some of Rozarria at the very least, both physically and as a larger part of the story. The Necrohol of Nabudis (I think that's the name) seemed like a really cool concept that was kind of pasted onto the game, too, so maybe it also had more of a role?

There's no way to know though. :/

Edit: Reading up on Ivalice's history, and the Cataclysm only happens 92 years after FFXII. I thought there was a much larger gap in time. Ajora would also likely pop up around this time, as mentioned by Agrias:

They say the ruins of a lost civilization lie buried beneath the streets of Goug, the Clockwork City. Relics from the age of Saint Ajora, when airships numerous beyond counting filled the skies, and men of iron walked city streets. But the art of crafting such things was lost—if it ever truly existed at all.

—Agrias Oaks

The intrigue continues...
 
I was disapointed by the Judges when the game came out on ps2, but part of this disapointement comes from the fact :

-They were super importent and a big part of the core gameplay in FFTA (and FFXII was supposed to be related to FFTA)

-They were heavily advertised by SE pre-release. So it made me think they would have a central role just like in FFTA (even maybe in terms of gameplay)


But in the end they were just some minor characters (save for Gabranth)

The same can be said for the Nu-mous : in FFTA, they were one of the main species, and I liked them a lot. So I expected them to be a big part of XII...but you only see them in 1 town if I remember correctly.
 
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