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343 Rescinds Job Offer to Halo Community Member Over Forum Post
- Thread starter VivaciousJazzy
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Jeff Kaplan didn't rant about Blizzard, he ranted about a game that he played with blizzard employees who KNEW that he was right about what he was bitching about (even if it was ranting).
You're talking apples and oranges, Jeff wasn't in the game development community, Blizzard was still a relatively small, virtually autonomous developer. The issue here isn't even that some guy posted 'everyone should lose their jobs' - it's that he posted everyone AT THE COMPANY HIRING HIM should lose their jobs. That is very different. It's not a tasteful statement either way, but there is a mile of difference between the two.
coughlanio
Member
I think 343 could and should have let this slide, unless the harassment claims have a basis in fact. Saying that, I don't blame them for wanting to steer clear either.
A couple more posts from the guy. To be fair he's not getting pissed at 343 for this and blames himself.
And another post he just made on Beyond:
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/1...ion/page-295?view_ignored=986627#entry986627
And another post he just made on Beyond:
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/1...ion/page-295?view_ignored=986627#entry986627
Seems weird a dude would shit all over something he holds so dear to him...
Maybe holding people accountable will reduce toxicity in gaming culture. Too many privileged boys assuming as long as they write a well thought out and sincere apology the world bends to their expectations.
Maybe holding people accountable will reduce toxicity in gaming culture. Too many privileged boys assuming as long as they write a well thought out and sincere apology the world bends to their expectations.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
We should all criticize the things and people we hold dear, but not because we're trying to "shit" on it but because we want them to be even better.
Calling for everyone to lose their jobs doesn't do that.
Just going off the original comment displayed (the one about jobs and whoos-its), I just don't see any issue with 343 abstaining from hiring the guy. I mean, I know a lot of companies out there will like check your facebook and other social media accounts prior to hiring so I wouldn't find it too much of a stretch for a game company to check forum posts at a place dedicated to their game. I think I do agree that it probably should've been found sooner, which might've prevented himself getting in this weird pickle he's in with his old job/home gone.
If the other stuff said about the dude is true (I say "if" because he seems to deny it in the forums cross-posting), then I don't think I'd fault anyone bringing this to light which "made them win" either. What if the person that made the anonymous account was someone who was harassed by this person? I think that it's probably a reasonable assumption that they'd want people to see how vile a certain person could be (Again though, if what was said is true).
If the other stuff said about the dude is true (I say "if" because he seems to deny it in the forums cross-posting), then I don't think I'd fault anyone bringing this to light which "made them win" either. What if the person that made the anonymous account was someone who was harassed by this person? I think that it's probably a reasonable assumption that they'd want people to see how vile a certain person could be (Again though, if what was said is true).
It certainly feels like that last sentence is true, but I guess maybe he had to address it to some people who were sort of in the know to keep it from getting too awkward? (swing and a miss)
This feels like good advice.
His position was basically untenable.
People at 343 would have known about his comments disparaging colleagues work. He had no chance showing such arrogance.
HR did the right thing nipping him in the bud. He was a potential problem after those comments were discovered.
Hopefully he does learn from this.
Halo forums. "EVERYTHING IS BROKEN" since 2002.
Fata1moose
Banned
Welcome to the Halo community.
ForkNetwork
Banned
FTFY
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
I know that 3 legged goat guy from bnet.
SomeRandomWeirdGuy
Member
Being critical of something you like isn't something people should question. Undying loyalty to brands and franchises is ridiculous
Hawk269
Member
This is common however. I have been on forums for musical acts and some of the proclaimed biggest fans tend to be the most critical. Even a few people that love LG OLED's and would recommend them to others they tend to blast them for issues with firmware updates. Sometimes the biggest fans of something are also the most critical.
In Marketing you are taught there is no such thing as brand loyalty, only brand preference. This being the case even if people think they are 'loyal'. With the way so many fans deserted Microsoft since Xbox One, it makes sense.
down 2 orth
Member
Looks like the message here is we should all self-censor.
Not surprised that it originated from Microsoft.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
The people who are the most critical usually are the ones that truly love or care about the thing or person in question.
You can only be truly critical (as opposed to just shitting on things unreasonably) when you truly know and care about the subject. People who just devotedly love anything and everything about something just love the "idea" of the thing, they don't really love the actual thing, because they couldn't care less about the thing improving and becoming better.
That is Zoba/Twilight Gap. Didn't believe he was 3 legged goat from back in the day.
This isn't a matter of wiggle room. Talk shit about the people that you are looking to employ you? That is a one person fail. Of epic proportions. If nothing else, common fucking sense would ward you of from doing dumb shit. If you don't even have that, you have no place on any team. Especially a team that can see what you really are, and how you conduct yourself. No loss for 343.
My MO online is, "don't be a jerk". Most of GAF's rules can be boiled down to this, FWIW. It may require some self-censorship (particularly for jerks) but I'd argue that' a good thing. We should all take a moment to consider if we're meeting a minimum level of basic decency with our discourse.
From the follow up posts a little ways up, it sounds like this guy realizes he fell short of that standard, where it really counted.
Jack The Nipper
Banned
If they could have talked to him I feel reason could have been had. I am sure he is aware be doesnt know who works there. So logically he can't say his idea makes sense. No one can
I'm sure there are employees there that feel the games aren't good or what they want too.
His statement illogical for sure,and we don't know this guy too. And even if we do its still self perspective as to how we or each individual feels. There is no answer to this
I'm sure there are employees there that feel the games aren't good or what they want too.
His statement illogical for sure,and we don't know this guy too. And even if we do its still self perspective as to how we or each individual feels. There is no answer to this
OrbitalBeard
Member
This is the case within many passionate communities.
Yes there is. This isn't rocket science.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
A couple more posts from the guy. To be fair he's not getting pissed at 343 for this and blames himself.
And another post he just made on Beyond:
http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/1...ion/page-295?view_ignored=986627#entry986627
Glad to see he's apologized. I feel like if he had listened to the response and tone of a few of the people in that July thread, it would've all turned out differently.
There is always room for discourse and not everything needs to be super-edgy turbo boosted vitriolic hyperbole 24/7. If I'm at 343 and i see that... that's how he was working with others, examples of him talking to peers and a glimpse of what he thought of his almost coworkers (everything is shit/vomit/the worst ever?) He said he's an ex-Treyarch employee, he should've known better.
That's been my takeaway. Looks like he learned his lesson, based on the form post above. It's a shame it had to go down like this, but I think he'll be a better person for it.
Head.spawn
Junior Member
Well that's debateable though, if he worked at Treyarch, one of the premiere AAA studios regardless of your perspective on their games, there stands a chance that he did know some of the employees or they knew him. There's a bit cross-over in the industry i would think.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'm seeing a lot of people defending the person. The issue is not criticism, the issue is saying that everyone at 343 should lose their jobs. Seriously, you can criticize a person and be fine without being an ass about it.
Nothing about self censoring just understanding conducting yourself in a professional manner when you want to work in certain industries especially if you connect them to forum personas and your real life.
Do you think any Sony devs would put up with the same thing? Someone they've offered a job to, shitting on his co workers?
Neverwinter27
Member
I know the current generation are being raised by Internet personalities like Pewdiepie, but this isn't a minimum wage retail job you're looking to work for. It seems like the only way to step out of one's bubble is to get shoved out of it as a wake up call to reality.
down 2 orth
Member
Well, he made a stupid post on the internet. It was sarcastic, but it wasn't harassment. I think it's pretty cold to expect someone to lose their job for what he said, even if that is what has become the norm. I would have respected 343 much more if they gave him another chance instead of making an example of him.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Companies arent self help seminars. They surely had other qualified applicants on deck and went with one intelligent enough not to shit on his potential coworkers for internet points.
They did talk to him, he obviously neglected to mention his online conduct. If you go to someone after the fact and say "yea, so we saw your posts saying none of us deserve our jobs here" of course the person will suddenly sound reasonable and apologetic... that's not sincere, they'd be looking to save themselves.
Not knowing the people personally is completely irrelevant. He worked in the industry. He somewhat understands the work they do. Do you think his evaluation of the audio-engineer who's work he said makes everyone else working in the field "want to snap their neck" hinges on whether he knows that person's real name is Dave or not? He shat on practically every single aspect of every single person's work there. He may like Halo, but he clearly didn't like 343i, or the people it is comprised of. It's not beneficial for them to hire someone who basically resents the entire team for not being Bungie, whether they continue to say that out loud or not.
Uh, a company has to pick one out of tens of candidates to give them money to bring a positive benefit to their company, and they selected this person.
If that person turns out to be a negative detriment because team members felt don't want to work with this person because of past comments, the company has all rights to hire another candidate, or just not hire.
What sucks admittedly, is that 343 retracted after he got the offer and prepared to move. In this case 343 is being quite inhumane and should be slammed for this.
Eh, I don't think it was a vindictive response from 343. I imagine their thought process was that they were looking for someone who doesn't have a flair for hyperbole to be their community manager, and this person proved to not be that type of poster.
Also, it reminds me that Stinkles, who is 343's community manager, used to write some pretty fucked up stuff in the OT section of this board related to Muslims. I very clearly recall him calling all Afghans savages. I wish something happened about that too, but I suppose a company's brand image is more important to it than Islamophobia
Can't find the exact post but this is close:
Dude. The company has a work force to take care of already. And everyone of those individuals has a legitimate right to be pissed that this guy would be allowed into their workplace. No way in hell he should be walking in after saying that they should all be unemployed. Karma is a bitch like that.
As someone once told me, you can't walk around this world being an asshole all the time. There are millions upon millions of smart people out there, so why hire a smart jerk when you can hire a smart nice person?
Tough way to learn a lesson, but looks like he is handling it professionally. Hopefully he behaves better going forward.
Tough way to learn a lesson, but looks like he is handling it professionally. Hopefully he behaves better going forward.
down 2 orth
Member
I mean, yeah I agree with you. Microsoft doesn't care about their employees, that's why they fire so many of them all the time.
The guy was throwing out criticism, and it was phrased in an obviously unprofessional way. But it wasn't phrased to his employers, and I don't think what he said was beyond reproach for someone who wasn't an employee at the time. It was an easy call to make for 343, but giving him another chance would have been more respectable in my opinion. The company obviously saw something in him that set him apart from other candidates in the first place.
Bobo Dakes
Member
Look at ALL of the posts in this thread calling 343 sensitive and or petty. A course on this subject is definitely needed. "Mind what you say online", "digital footprint", all of it is necessary because no matter how obvious it may seem to you, CLEARLY it isn't to everyone else.
Yeah, sounds like someone you want to have on your team in a stressful environment.
I was giving 2 month grace period before the bitching started.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Frankly the fact he applied for a job with them after all that makes me question his judgement.
The likely process was that they saw the stuff he'd made before and he also performed well in a tech evaluation they gave him, then the posts and harassment came up. There's nothing respectable about overlooking a potential hire's animosity toward people already in your employ.
Something I don't see discussed often enough is studio "culture". In short, this is the need for everyone to bond together. It's a close knit family. Game creators and studios are similar to submarine crews having to operate together in a small space, save not having gone through a life evaluating process together (boot camp). Even the "chilliest" of work places still requires your family to be less hostile.
I think in this situation, his comments were perfectly acceptable from the position of someone on the outside looking in, with no intention to ever try to be a peer, but he himself admitted this was a lifelong goal. If this was his goal in life, he clearly lost sight of it, as many people do, in the moment. It's unfortunate, but he did this very thing.
He fucked up.
And he admitted it.
I don't believe they did the wrong thing either. It's not about "thick skin" or "getting over it" but rather, "you never get a second chance to make a first impression." He would be entering this family, trying to go from outside to insider, all the while people maybe talking about "this guy". All the while, there may be borders and walls put up simply because of his actions, and they would be right. The vitriol of the internet has no place in a studio. Yes, constructive criticism is welcome, but the number of times I've seen straight ignorance hidden by a weak veil of "constructive criticism" would make me rich if only a dime an instance.
This is a lesson for you, myself included, in all aspects of our lives. Be who you are, always. Do not be apologetic... but remember you're not bulletproof. Being responsible for who you are is how you become an adult. Be ready to put people in their place for being assholes but be prepared to get rocked when you impede on the fostering of their growth.
I wish him the best however and hope he grows from this, if even in this simple aspect of his life. Not getting his dream job is justified, not ever getting a job... maybe not.
I think in this situation, his comments were perfectly acceptable from the position of someone on the outside looking in, with no intention to ever try to be a peer, but he himself admitted this was a lifelong goal. If this was his goal in life, he clearly lost sight of it, as many people do, in the moment. It's unfortunate, but he did this very thing.
He fucked up.
And he admitted it.
I don't believe they did the wrong thing either. It's not about "thick skin" or "getting over it" but rather, "you never get a second chance to make a first impression." He would be entering this family, trying to go from outside to insider, all the while people maybe talking about "this guy". All the while, there may be borders and walls put up simply because of his actions, and they would be right. The vitriol of the internet has no place in a studio. Yes, constructive criticism is welcome, but the number of times I've seen straight ignorance hidden by a weak veil of "constructive criticism" would make me rich if only a dime an instance.
This is a lesson for you, myself included, in all aspects of our lives. Be who you are, always. Do not be apologetic... but remember you're not bulletproof. Being responsible for who you are is how you become an adult. Be ready to put people in their place for being assholes but be prepared to get rocked when you impede on the fostering of their growth.
I wish him the best however and hope he grows from this, if even in this simple aspect of his life. Not getting his dream job is justified, not ever getting a job... maybe not.
Sorry, but you have no idea just how close the other candidates were in the running. There could have been like 7 85% favourable candidates to his 86% (or even dead equal, but a call has to be made at some point).
It was only not phrased to his employers because they weren't his employers yet, and it was so recent that its quite likely they were already his "prospective" employers at the time. What he was throwing out was not constructive at all, and basically just amounted to "all this is shit, and all of you at 343i suck".
They may have seen something in him at the time, but it's not as clear in what they see in him now. They see something in their current team though, and so it's not worth the risk introducing someone so potentially toxic into to mix. You could lose your current talent that way.
I think the reason Multi didn't get the job is because 343 does care about its employees and isn't willing to subject team members to someone who obviously can be a hot head. It wasn't an isolated incident, there are multiple examples that are too recent to ignore.
Twilight Gap
Member
It was not my intention to throw one of my peers under the bus, therefore I'm retracting my statement. His response to the situation should speak more to his character as a professional than my interactions online, which have been candid.
Furthermore, the website in question is currently a small open platform and the aforementioned comments other than the one in the OP should not be taken outside of context.
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