rokkerkory
Member
All of the government shutdowns in recent history were when GOP controlled the congress. Shows you how disfunctional they are.
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Why wouldn't Democrats give Trump his wall to save a million DACA immigrants?
- Thread starter pramod
- Start date
Super Mario
Banned
From the VOX article posted above
To point fingers of who is at fault is a silly discussion anyways. Both parties were willing to take down the government to get what they want. The media will obviously never give Trump any credit, but he is a strong negotiator. You don't get to where he is without that.
Trump currently holds all of the cards and is playing it out for a strong Republican win. DACA is set to end. You lose leverage in that when you let the previous President introduce it via executive order. So now it either goes away, or a compromise is made. DACA going away gives the Democrats the most to lose. Trump has said good things about DACA recipients in multiple occasions, which leads us to believe that he has every intent of letting some form of that program stay. He's going to get funding for the wall, he's going to get funding for the military, and DACA is going to stay. Mark my words.
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pramod
Banned
So Democrats are finally giving in and open to give Trump some funding for his wall, just like I predicted...
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trumps-border-wall-monumental-waste-pay-deal-daca/story?id=52491461
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ublicans-broadly-like/?utm_term=.32788b3d5d06
My guess is Trump is still waiting for more concessions....I think he wants more than just 1.6 billion.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trumps-border-wall-monumental-waste-pay-deal-daca/story?id=52491461
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ublicans-broadly-like/?utm_term=.32788b3d5d06
My guess is Trump is still waiting for more concessions....I think he wants more than just 1.6 billion.
CampbellzSoup
Member
The wall will be built
deadscreensky
Member
Already been talked about here. Democrats have been offering funding for Trump's wall for quite some time now, but like we all predicted it didn't matter. Your prediction ended up being entirely wrong. Neither Democrats nor Republicans can negotiate with President Jello, because he'll tell you he's okay with an offer you're making and then stab you in the back a couple hours later.
Incidentally, Trump is so weird:
NYT said:
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I will never understand people who think Trump is a successful business person. He is a garish joke and has been his entire life. Please please please watch the Frontline on him.
He got to where he is because he appealed to the absolutely worst in Americans. He prayed on fear and racism...and it worked. I mean...just look at yourself.
rokkerkory
Member
And Mexico will pay for it!
Vicetrailia
Member
theclaw135
Banned
All this fuss over a wall distracts from the issues driving people to leave Mexico.
Not that I support the existence of the border itself. Unrealistic as it is to happen, I'm favorable toward admitting Mexico into the union as a state.
Not that I support the existence of the border itself. Unrealistic as it is to happen, I'm favorable toward admitting Mexico into the union as a state.
WaterAstro
Member
They offered that before the shut down, but Trump didn't want just the wall anymore. You can watch Schumer on CNN's youtube explain it.
Super Mario
Banned
Hate to break it to you, but every politician utilizes what you call "fear" to an extent. How do you get the people interested in your cause unless they fear they have something to lose?
We have a problem with illegal immigration, some of these people are terrible people who have murdered without remorse, Democrats refuse to do anything about it. Classic, first page Liberal playbook tactics you utilized here. We have no policy, and want to pander to our base, cry racism.
So the fact that illegal immigrants commit less crime than native born people means you should want more of them no? https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-crime-what-research-says
I'm sure you're pushing for police reform too if you believe this then
This is so unbelievably stupid.
“Some of these people are terrible people”
There are 4 murderers per 100,000 legal US citizens. That means there should be 480 murderers among the 12 million undocumented people in the US. Is that acceptable? What about 400. Do they need to be 10x better than native-born citizens? 100x better? So 4.8 murderers?
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StrikeNinja24
Banned
Fixed for accuracy. This is the same guy who isn't even allowed to open any more casinos, places where people literally come to hand you money, because he failed so hard at it. This is the same guy who would be worth more if he just threw his money into bonds and left it alone.
This is your master negotiator? What exactly has he negotiated since he's been in office?
golfham
Member
That’s a fine viewpoint to have, but keep in mind that Trump’s base is content with what he has done. Trump is one of the very few politicians who has actually kept his campaign promises. As a trump supporter, I am very pleased.
Obama caved every chance he got and failed to keep many of his campaign promises. I know because I supported him both terms and was letdown very early on.
Vicetrailia
Member
Democrats do something about criminals, it's called funding the police.
The video is racist propaganda, and only appeals to people who have those instincts. I shouldn't have to tell you how nonconvincing that is.
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CampbellzSoup
Member
Where is it racist? Well the left thinks everything is racist so.
golfham
Member
I don't know where you live, but in the real world Democrats have a reputation for defending criminals. It's easy to sit behind a computer and preach all this idealistic bullshit, but too many innocent people have been murdered by illegal aliens.
Do you really think anyone would care about illegal aliens (particularly those from Mexico) if they didn't commit so much crime? It doesn't even make a difference that they're Mexican. The argument would be the same even if they were white people from Sweden.
Since 2003, 25,064 people have been killed by illegal aliens.
From the GAO directly (link to the full report in one of the quotes below):
From The Hill:
Yeah many of them are probably good people, but too many of them are objectively bad--and they shouldn't have been here to commit their crimes in the first place.
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D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
What’s all that have to do with Dreamers?
I don’t think anyone is pro-illegal immigration. The question is usually how to best use the money to prevent it, and what to do with the people already here.
Also, none of my conservative friends have ever accused Dems of defending criminals, lol. Yay anecdotal evidence and ad hominems!
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Most of the discourse here has devolved into this, which in all honestly isn't that shocking.
golfham
Member
Because it was obviously their choice to be brought here illegally when they were kids
golfham
Member
Is my post really that offensive? I guess the truth hurts sometimes.
I was making a general statement about what I've seen for the last few weeks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Only recently, after Trump got rid of it. Also, the Dreamers can’t commit crimes, let alone murder, without losing their status. So that data isn’t relevant if you’re using it to suggest Dreamers are dangerous and that’s why they should be deported or why we shouldn’t renew the policy.
Oh please, don’t give yourself that much credit. Just because you throw around insults doesn’t mean the recipients are insulted.
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golfham
Member
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D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
Yes, one example is a very compelling argument for addressing hundreds of thousands of people.
Let’s ban guns too. And white supremacy.
Come on.
Lets also reform the police since they kill innocent people too, yet I don't see anyone here pushing for this at all
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Vicetrailia
Member
Note to everyone, verify the reports yourself. If an article has an agenda, check it yourself.
This is exactly what the federal report those misappropriated statistics say:
Go to the statistical source and check it yourself.
Now, tell me this: that 2003 statistic is not true, but if it was it has nothing to do with the wall. Crime = Wall? NO!
We don't have hoards of barbarians invading the country through Mexico, raping and pillaging. Maybe 3% of illegal mexicans are "bad". But if I verified each statistic I probably wouldn't find that conclusion.
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golfham
Member
I’d be all for that. No innocent person should ever be killed, and nothing can justify the death of one innocent person. This is my belief as I value life more than anything.
Compelling argument? Are we in court or something? We’re talking about life and death—the real world, and you don’t even show any empathy for the young girl I mentioned just like the politicians you fawn over. She’s just a statistic to you, and you assume we’re arguing, but we’re not.
Would you talk this way to the 2 year old daughter she left behind?
D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
I didn’t say I don’t empathize. I just said it’s not a reason to deport hundreds of thousands of kids due to the actions of 1. Making policy decisions solely based on single, isolated incidents would be insanity.
I don’t fawn over politicians.
If we aren’t having a discussion, then I guess I don’t really need to reply to you anymore after this? I thought that was the point of this thread?
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Super Mario
Banned
Even in the face of facts, which the Liberals claim to be so much for, they abandon them and call racism.
Again, playing cards that don't exist. Try harder.
If you were trolling, I would find that answer way more refreshing. Unfortunately, we know that's not true.
Vicetrailia
Member
I already showed how that statistic is wrong. The statistical SOURCE said the stats were from 1955-2010, with 90% coming after 1990. There is no mention of 2003 to whatever, making the 22-37% statistic unlikely to derive, and therefore wrong. That's not even looking at all of the articles data in order to see how they actually made comparisons. But again, having 50% of crime doesnt mean that we need a wall. It's symbolic.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-by-police-yes-but-no/?utm_term=.b6e7b2861944
Thanks for playing though. The stats show that it is disproportionate, rather than saying "less black people die by police than you think, so it's not a problem".
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I have a story and its something some of you need to hear. I was 7 years old when I came to the US. I'm of Asian decent and my family considered education the most important thing. We lost everything in a war that ravaged our country. My mother's sister had immigrated to the US years ago and told her to come, and so we did. My mom only wanted one thing that we get a decent education so that we can have a chance at life. We came thru a visa and stayed. For years, the four of us stayed in a tiny one bedroom apt. I shared a bed with my mother and brother while my dad slept on the floor. They worked jobs, any jobs they could get their hands on, with long grueling shifts. I didn't know any different in my life. I was only 7. I grew up eventually. I went to middle school and high school and was raised as any another person, or at least I thought. I considered my self an American. I knew no different.
But life had taken toll on them. They worked and worked in jobs and hours that are unfathomable. But we managed, we'd go out to eat every once in a while. I even got a GameBoy. My brother and I did good in school. But the years got harder. As we got older, we were able to do less. We couldn't drive, we couldn't work, and worst of all, we were told we couldn't go to college. How can that be? I've been here since 7. This is all I ever had. I knew no different. Highschool got tougher; I saw all my friends get jobs, and do extracurricular activities. But I couldn't participate. No insurance, no ID, no money, and no free time. I used what ever time I did have to just create small wireframes of websites on blank sheets of paper and then build them whenever possible at school and at my home computer. I got a cheap $30 classical guitar and I learned to play flamenco and jazz over the years. I got very good. Music was a great escape.
In highschool, I had some girlfriends. I could confide in them my secret. The one thing people don't understand about being undocumented is the overbearing shame. The guilt. And it hurts so much. See I thought I was American. Until one day they all said I wasn't. What did I do wrong? I thought I did everything right. I studied, I worked hard, and I was a good neighbor. Surely that's American? But it was never good enough. People called me names. They said I was illegal. I didn't let it get to me until it hit me at times where I was just by myself. Sometimes at the gym. Sometimes by my guitar. Sometimes to my girlfriends. Even my closest friends don't know and maybe never will.
Its hard to really express what its like to watch everyone go ahead of you. Even though you worked so hard, and mostly harder than them. But it was easier for them. Mistakes were amendable. For me, they were deportable. Money was easier. Living was easier. They all had cars, jobs, hobbies, friends, everything. And college was a possibility. For me, I was told I would never go. I didn't have anything, but just the will to keep working. It's all I could do.
There was a legislation that passed around when I graduated that let me go to college. My god when I found out I didn't know what to do. I was at a loss for words. I honestly didn't know how to process it. I applied to Universities in my state and I was accepted everywhere. So I chose the best. But how could I afford it? I couldn't. I wasn't allowed to hold a job. Or drive. Or serve in the military. I tried. But I ended up going. I had to survive one way or another. My mother emptied her bank account to send me to college to study engineering. And I studied hard. I got decent grades, it wasn't bad. But I needed to make ends meet.
See while in my free time in highschool and college, I honed my expertise in guitar, mixing and programming. I decided to open up a tiny tutoring and recording studio in my uni apartment. First it was slow, but I was good. I had to survive. So I did things cheap, but I did them well. I was a great teacher too. Soon enough, I was making rent from just doing that. I juggled engineering and making money by my dorm business. I eventually got my Master's as well. Right around this time, Obama created DACA. I must have cried for a solid hour.
Finally, someone thought I was just American enough to hear me. I hard worked and studied so hard. I could finally get a job. I did. I could finally drive a car. I do. I could finally get on an airplane. I fly all the time. What about my parents? The years had left them broken. Softer and weaker than I remembered. They spent it all on me and my brother. Time and the US had never been kind to them. But they were the nicest people you had ever met. For example, my father would give people around the neighborhood rides to the grocery if they were too old or unable. And my mom she would take care of all the neighbors kids. Sometimes they would pay her just a little. Its such a shame because she has a Master's. My dad had changed though. Someone had robbed him at gun point and told him to get out of this country. He was so afraid all the time now.
People think I'm some sort of edge case. Its not true. While at my university, I met so many Dreamers. And my god, they were all like me. They looked different. But that was it. We all had similar stories. The constant battles, the shame, the pain of living with this mark. The pain of knowing society actively hates you. It hurts so much all the time. but we survived. We kept working. And we worked hard; we studied hard. Most of us were engineers, doctors, scientists. Beautiful and intelligent people, just relegated to the darkest corners of society.
I married my girlfriend of 9 years, just a couple of years ago. She is a US citizen and freed my from these shackles. I have a great paying job, I contribute massively to taxes, and I had a great side business that employed people. Most of my friends don't know my story though. They think I'm just like them. They don't know. I'm too ashamed to tell them. And its true for a lot of Dreamer's. Some are brave to come out though. I truly hope you can all see how badly Dreamers need this. We're older now. We're contributors and we are survivors.
Why aren't we also American?
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Also this (Immigrants cause less crime):
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/us/trump-illegal-immigrants-crime.html
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/fact-check-immigration-doesnt-bring-crime-u-s-data-say
Astral Dog
Member
Its a philosophical wall
golfham
Member
I can appreciate that, and I empathize with your struggle. More power to you, and I hope you achieve(d) all your dreams, I will truthfully take what you said to heart. Illegal immigrants who commit crimes do folks like you a great disservice.
I will say that I appreciate this type of civil dialogue. What you're saying is far more compelling than most posts in this thread.
Vicetrailia
Member
Thank you for sharing.
dysonEA
Member
That article is about immigrants not bringing crime ... where’s the data on illegal imagrants and crime?
StrikeNinja24
Banned
Obama made the mistake of trying to be bipartisan. Was a complete waste of time to do so with a party who flat out said their goal was to make him a one term president.
Sadly, Democrats are in as deep to lobbying as Republicans.
However, is this why you vote for politicians? To get political wins? Stop making this into a sporting event. You spit in the face of the people like the poster above who shared his story with your support.
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D
Deleted member 12837
Unconfirmed Member
With all the crucifying of liberals for “appealing to emotion”, it’s fascinating to see it have a positive effect on conservatives, however small.
Thank you, Composer, for sharing your story.
Thank you, Composer, for sharing your story.
Mohonky
Member
This was pretty typical Trump play in business. Refuse to pay for services, hold out till the other party couldnt afford to fight any longer and just take whatever they can get to cover their costs and be done with it.
Trump knows he can play this to his base as Democats being the problem and get his stupid wall. It's a win win for him.
You are an American my friend, and unlike Super Mario and golfham, I’m going to actually fight for you because that’s what we stand for.
Stay strong. Keep telling your story and don't give up hope.
I’m really curious about what you think a pragmatic and compassionate thing would be to do with the DREAMers. It would be spectacularly cruel to kick out people who were brought here as children with no criminal history. You can’t possibly be that much of a monster.
Do you really think we would allow that to happen? The friends and families of Dreamers would protect them. Do you really think that decent human being would allow such cruelty?
pramod
Banned
I just read your story Composer.
Its a good story...i wanted to write a good long well thought out response but its late...so for now ill just say..from the perspective of someone who had to immigrate here legally...your parents broke the law by bringing you here on an expired visa.
Actually, screw it, I ended up not being able to sleep. I have so many things I want to say.
Yes, this was not your fault. I can sympathize with your plight. But your parents clearly broke the law. Sorry but I don't sympathize, or respect them. They cheated the system. They are selfish. They showed no respect for this country's laws, or the other immigrants who are also desperate for a better life trying to enter this country, but doing it legally.
It's because of people like your parents, who cheated the system, and because there are so many of you, that this country has such an anti-immigrant sentiment. It's because of them that it's almost impossible for people in many countries to obtain a legal visa, even just to visit as a tourist. Because the US government is so paranoid about people overstaying. And they have every right to be.
Am I being cruel? Am I one of those "fuck you got mine" assholes? That's fine if you feel that way. But I know many legal immigrants like myself are furious at illegal immigrants. It's human nature. How would you feel if you are standing in a line with a million people, and someone just jumps in front of the line? Can you blame us for complaining about unfairness?
But anyway, you are lucky. Your parents are lucky. America is an extremely compassionate country. That's why it's the greatest on earth. That's why Obama and even Trump wants to give Dreamers the chance to stay. Despite all of you breaking this country's laws, they still forgive you and accept you. But surely you must also understand why Trump, and people who support him, want something in return, whether it be a wall, or more enforcement, for legalizing the Dreamers? If not, how do we stop this endless cycle of people jumping in line and cheating or taking advantage of the system? What if everyone just decides to be like your parents, and bring their kids over and hide them in the shadows hoping someday the compassion of Americans will let them cheat the system again? It would be chaos. How can you have a civil society like that?
Its a good story...i wanted to write a good long well thought out response but its late...so for now ill just say..from the perspective of someone who had to immigrate here legally...your parents broke the law by bringing you here on an expired visa.
Actually, screw it, I ended up not being able to sleep. I have so many things I want to say.
Yes, this was not your fault. I can sympathize with your plight. But your parents clearly broke the law. Sorry but I don't sympathize, or respect them. They cheated the system. They are selfish. They showed no respect for this country's laws, or the other immigrants who are also desperate for a better life trying to enter this country, but doing it legally.
It's because of people like your parents, who cheated the system, and because there are so many of you, that this country has such an anti-immigrant sentiment. It's because of them that it's almost impossible for people in many countries to obtain a legal visa, even just to visit as a tourist. Because the US government is so paranoid about people overstaying. And they have every right to be.
Am I being cruel? Am I one of those "fuck you got mine" assholes? That's fine if you feel that way. But I know many legal immigrants like myself are furious at illegal immigrants. It's human nature. How would you feel if you are standing in a line with a million people, and someone just jumps in front of the line? Can you blame us for complaining about unfairness?
But anyway, you are lucky. Your parents are lucky. America is an extremely compassionate country. That's why it's the greatest on earth. That's why Obama and even Trump wants to give Dreamers the chance to stay. Despite all of you breaking this country's laws, they still forgive you and accept you. But surely you must also understand why Trump, and people who support him, want something in return, whether it be a wall, or more enforcement, for legalizing the Dreamers? If not, how do we stop this endless cycle of people jumping in line and cheating or taking advantage of the system? What if everyone just decides to be like your parents, and bring their kids over and hide them in the shadows hoping someday the compassion of Americans will let them cheat the system again? It would be chaos. How can you have a civil society like that?
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C
Composer
Thanks for sharing that story, it was very touching and powerful. I can't say I understand what it must have been like, but thanks for the lens into your life. I must say, though, that from a higher, less emotional and personal level, I agree with a country having and enforcing laws regarding immigration. I think the idea of a Wall is a childish idea; a simple, concrete structure that is more symbolic than it is practical, so I'm not on-board with that. I must ask you, what is your perspective about how to best handle people in your situation? We have seen that it isn't a good idea in any country to have completely open borders, as this opens the system to abuses and various kinds of trouble with locals, cultures, etc. Regardless of what we may like to think in rosy terms, not all people are good, and not all cultures treat all people the same. In my view it is all very complicated, and should be handled rationally and with care.