You have literally a thousand games that represent you. How many white gay tough guys are represented in games? Name me five
It doesnt matter to me how many games I have that "represent" me. I dont even play Overwatch anymore TBH (hardly ever anyway). Soldier not being a "tough guy" anymore is what bothers me.
Gay guys can't be tough?
Blizzard really nailed it with this one.
Here we go again with misrepresenting the argument.
Sexuality is the biological drive for reproduction. That means that the default is heterosexuality, biologically, because that is the only way for reproduction to truly work, which in turn develops into heterosexuality being the default culturally. That means that showing heterosexual behavior is seen as normal (within certain limits, obviously), and other forms will be frowned upon, justifiably so. Showing two heterosexual people kissing will not be seen as weird and is therefore not 'confronting', but all the others are, because they are not the biological and cultural standard.
I've explained this multiple times. I have no problem with gay people living their lives as gay people. I have a problem with idealizing and idolizing that way of life. It's really simple.
Are you a gay tough guy?
Arkage said:Witness Greek and Roman society, and weep at them giving no fucks despite heterosexuality still being "the default."
Same sex intercourse with prostitutes, slaves or war captives was considered totally acceptable as it did not threaten a freeborn’s masculinity as long as the Roman citizen took the active role in penetration. Same sex activity amongst soldiers of equal status was punishable by death.
To an extent yes, protagonists and game icons do reflect real people, even silly things like Rayman has traits taken from real people. However you can easily argue that the sort we see these days as in Overwatch is an overmarketed and fixated, almost obsessive approach that shines through as being a sort of "what CAN'T we do with this character?" rather than a character design made by taking an unabashed idea you like.Does the charcter HAVE to look like you.
Does the charcter HAVE to have the same sexual preferences.
Does the charcter HAVE to have the same personality style.
Do you even need to relate to the charcter?
To an extent yes, protagonists and game icons do reflect real people, even silly things like Rayman has traits taken from real people. However you can easily argue that the sort we see these days as in Overwatch is an overmarketed and fixated, almost obsessive approach that shines through as being a sort of "what CAN'T we do with this character?" rather than a character design made by taking an unabashed idea you like.
The "you" was referring to "you" the player, specifically. Not a generalized "you" as in human. You can fully well enjoy a game such as Rayman, Bayonetta, or Mafia 3 despite the character looking nothing like you, personally. That was the point of the post.
I'm not for shaming gays. I already said that. That I am against propagating gayness doesn't mean I want to shame the ones that are gay.So because a thing isn't a cultural norm, the culture is justified in shaming said thing. This is moral relativism at its worst. Interracial relationships used to be incredibly culturally transgressive and were shamed to the extent of typically killing the minority participant. Was the culture justified in this action since it was breaking a "default"? Witness Greek and Roman society, and weep at them giving no fucks despite heterosexuality still being "the default." It is especially ridiculous when paired with your premise that anti-gay culture is founded upon biological defaults, in an apparent attempt to justify the shaming on something outside of cultural relativism. It's certainly not the case in nature that the animals which express homosexuality get "shunned" by their group. The shaming of gay culture is premised upon the religious consequences of the action (i.e. burning in hell) and the belief that it can "spread" like a disease. Both horribly misguided. God didn't say "Lo, I shall destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because their population will eventually dwindle due to not producing enough offspring, thus deflating their economy! Let's destroy them to... get it over with faster?"
I don't know the details of the story of the Overwatch character. That is actually quite an interesting backstory. The thing is though... Would it have more value if it was a partner of the opposite sex? Would it have less? I doubt it... So... Yeah. There is that.You're confusing the idea of normalizing with idealizing. And insofar as you could claim it's idealized, it's always done within the broader framework of "consenting adults get to love who they want and their happiness should be paramount," not "being gay is better than being straight, fuck straight people, yea!" as if it's some sort of zero-sum game. It especially absurd to make this kind of claim when the current topic is about a fucking side-story video of a character briefly mentioning how he wasn't a good person to his male partner. Jesus Christ dude.
It is hard to compare Greeks and Romans to us given drastically different morals in general.
Ihttp://katehon.com/article/truth-about-homosexuality-roman-empire
https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/truth-about-sexuality-ancient-greece-and-rome261012/
https://www.ancient-origins.net/anc...n-law-and-banning-passive-homosexuality-00832
How did you quote me on that lol. I didn’t even post that
Hm not sure sometimes when I write a post and then delete it and then write a new one I get pieces of the old one.
I'm not for shaming gays. I already said that. That I am against propagating gayness doesn't mean I want to shame the ones that are gay.
Just like someone being against gun control is not somehow pro mass shootings.
Or just like someone being against open borders doesn't necessarily wants to beat up immigrants.
Or just like someone being anti-feminist doesn't necessarily mean they want to rape women.
I don't know the details of the story of the Overwatch character. That is actually quite an interesting backstory. The thing is though... Would it have more value if it was a partner of the opposite sex? Would it have less? I doubt it... So... Yeah. There is that.
As for normalization vs idealization... Let's use a small branch or product of feminism as an example here... In order for women to become normalized in the army for example, they need to be idealized first. What does that mean? It means that the lesser physical strength of women needed to be downplayed, and standards needed to be lowered in order to allow women to pass certain tests to be able to join. And after they joined, they would be deemed as equally capable as the men that are in the army. It was the idealization of women that was required in order to attempt to reach normalization of women in the army. Ultimately it didn't really work, obviously, but that's another story.
It's not so different with LGBT. Relationships in general are hard. It's definitely not easier if you're a homosexual. There are many more things to take into account and to work through. To pretend it is the same as a heterosexual relationship, you might argue it's a normalization, and I'm sure there are exceptions to everything, but in reality it is an idealization, because the issues are downplayed in an attempt to show things as the same as (sometimes even easier than...) the heterosexual relationship when in reality they aren't.
Dude we know it's IN YOUR OPINION. SMFH you just said it, don't backpedal or apologize for stating your thoughtsPersonally not at all. I have never played a video game and thought or cared about what race or sexuality a character is. People that worry about these things generally aren’t gamers, but people looking to make a talking point for their agenda IMO.
It’s a strange hypocracy to be for children being exposed to things of a certain nature ok yet in countries where younger people are given in marriage it’s considered backward and barbaric.
What good comes out of masturbation, fornication, artificial contraception or homosexuality?
Give me one good thing that isn’t rooted in self gratification or selfishness.
You don't have to know exactly where I draw the line either. It's not as if I need your approval for my views. You can ask and I will tell you. But it doesn't seem like you like nor really want the answers, and honestly, I don't care if you do or don't. Just know that we'll be going further off-topic if you want to pry. As for the sodomy laws specifically, I don't think it's hard at all to know what my stand would be on that... I don't care what someone does in their bedroom as long as they're not harming anyone or anything else.Again, you play fast and loose with words like "force" or "propagate." I don't know where you draw the line on any myriad of gay issues (sodomy laws, marriage laws, adoption laws).
You think being neutral is a good thing? Where the ones that were 'neutral' in Nazi germany doing a good thing? And no I'm not saying gays are like Nazis, before I get accused of that too. The point is that being neutral is not always the correct position. Additionally, I don't care about gay marriage. If they want to get married, it's their life. I do disagree with whatever institutions being forced to marry gays, and I am definitely not for gays adopting children, although there are a few exceptions, because, you know, life is complicated.Maybe you're against gay marriage and gay adoption but you're OK with gays having sex. That really doesn't put you on team "neutral" as far as civil rights and sexual discrimination is concerned.
Sexual orientation shouldn't matter for certain jobs, although for some jobs it inevitably matters. Examples?And the fact that you use the word "propagate" makes me think you believe gayness essentially spreads like a disease. That the more it's talked about, the more people will turn gay. Does propagation mean simply a wider acceptance level in society, to the point where your sexual orientation shouldn't matter? Because if so, that is something that is on it's face something we should obvious strive for.
It's not that simple. It's that black and white thinking that allows these issues to escalate. That "us vs them" mentality is extremely destructive.Gay marriage is an obvious issue: you're either for it or against it.
Do you guys read what you post afterwards? It is cringe af to come from the op to this last page to see how the thread derailed... and this veiled prejudice some have is disgusting
"Oh my God, this manly guy is gay" Dude... Their reading is more natural than half the representation for Gays in any industry at least.
Most gays are not those feminine eccentric guys, but normal dudes that simply like other man. Deal with that, this is reality.
Yooo that's rape wtf is wrong with you?Force whatever you like Blizzard I'm still gonna make him hump girl characters.
Like i said, most people, not everybody, but i admit that my wording was bad. I didn't mean to say that people want to play a character who's exactly like themselves. What i meant was men will often pick a male character and women will often pick female characters, if given the choice.
Looks like there's no hurry to learn to play Overwatch.
This isn’t even necessarily true. You’re projecting. You don’t speak for anyone else.
You think being neutral is a good thing? Where the ones that were 'neutral' in Nazi germany doing a good thing? And no I'm not saying gays are like Nazis, before I get accused of that too. The point is that being neutral is not always the correct position. Additionally, I don't care about gay marriage. If they want to get married, it's their life. I do disagree with whatever institutions being forced to marry gays, and I am definitely not for gays adopting children, although there are a few exceptions, because, you know, life is complicated.
Let me elaborate, since apparently everything I say is vague... If a kid is left an orphan, and the only people willing or able to take care of the child is a gay couple, by all means. The problem is when children are seen as some sort of commodity. If you're in a gay relationship, by default you forsake the possibility to have children. That you require other means to do it is a testament to what I said previously, about these relationships being more complicated than heterosexual ones. And tie that to the fact that LGBTs are more likely to have mental issues than heterosexuals, and straight people simply should be higher on the priority list for adopting children than gay people. Yeah, you don't like that, but that is what is required at this point. Whether their mental health issues are caused by society or not, it is not in the best interest of the child to go with people that are more likely to have mental health issues. And yes, everyone should actually go through a mental check before being able to adopt, but that's another story for another time.
But rather than me giving the issues regarding gay couples raising children, I'll let this article to the talking;
Millie Fontana – Growing up with two mothers forced me to be confused about who I was and where I fit in the scheme of the world
https://www.ntd.com/mother-forces-s...ights-at-risk-for-offering-choice_262028.htmlSexual orientation shouldn't matter for certain jobs, although for some jobs it inevitably matters. Examples?
I doubt many men would feel comfortable getting a massage from a gay dude.
I doubt many women would feel comfortable with a trans woman as their gynecologist.
In fact, let's go further than that, because once again you nitpick a word to pretend I'm vague and then you associate it with the worst possible meaning in an attempt to paint me as some kind of demonic gay-hater.
A man, independent of sexual orientation, is seen as a threat if he works with children in day care. People are quick to assume he's a pedophile for working there. It goes as far as people calling the police if a man is standing somewhere near a park where children are playing. But do people care enough to speak up about that? That seems to be a much bigger issue since it affects a much larger portion of the population, including gays. But no. They don't. Because the media is too busy demonizing men because of feminism, and praising women and the LGBTQ movement specifically. Do you see why it's a propagation now? It has nothing to do with seeing being gay as some sort of disease.
And lastly, I will simply refer to this article again;
https://www.ntd.com/mother-forces-s...ights-at-risk-for-offering-choice_262028.html
It's not that simple. It's that black and white thinking that allows these issues to escalate. That "us vs them" mentality is extremely destructive.
Simple question. Why should a University be able to turn down someone that does not qualify since they don't have the necessary criteria to study there, but, a Church should be forced to marry gay people, even though they do not qualify to the standards set by the Church?
Why can a disco turn down whomever they wish by whatever stupid standard they hold, but gay people are not allowed to be turned down for their marriage?
Why is a church free to turn down marrying anyone, but not gays?
And no I'm not religious nor do I like churches. But the point is, if you want to get married as a gay couple, go ahead. But don't force someone to marry you that doesn't want to marry you. What is so difficult to understand about that? I have constantly said this, and I'll say it again. Imposing things on others is generally bad.
And now you can tell me whether I'm for or against gay marriage, since it's such an obvious issue according to you.
I memed about Soldier being gay a while ago and I got what I wanted.
Now you gotta tell us whether he's a top or a bottom. This is important to me, someone who doesn't play the game. (Considering buying the Soldier nendo now though.)
STOP HAVING FUN!!!Force whatever you like Blizzard I'm still gonna make him hump girl characters.
You're extremely good at nitpicking the things you want to reply to, and fully ignoring whatever would be difficult to reply to. And then you claim that everything I say is easily disproved. You basically completely ignored the article of the girl raised by lesbian mothers. And despite the point of the other article being a perfect example of queerness being forced upon a child, you twist it as if that's a problem with heterosexual parents, despite the mother obviously being a huge pusher for queerness, against the child's own will.*stuff*
https://pjmedia.com/faith/2017/02/23/lgbt-group-announces-plan-to-invade-church-space-in-ohio/churches aren't forced to marry gays if they don't want to
Videogame industry has been pandering to one group or another for its entire history. Don't get upset when it isn't your group getting the reach around.
You're extremely good at nitpicking the things you want to reply to, and fully ignoring whatever would be difficult to reply to. And then you claim that everything I say is easily disproved. You basically completely ignored the article of the girl raised by lesbian mothers. And despite the point of the other article being a perfect example of queerness being forced upon a child, you twist it as if that's a problem with heterosexual parents, despite the mother obviously being a huge pusher for queerness, against the child's own will.
As for;
https://pjmedia.com/faith/2017/02/23/lgbt-group-announces-plan-to-invade-church-space-in-ohio/
Let's see what other excuse you make up for that one.
But don't expect me to reply anymore. Can't really have an honest debate with someone that is being purposefully dishonest in order to demonize someone else.
Who is making this a big deal?It looks like out of 29 playable characters they only have 2 that are LGBTQ so I'm not sure why this is any kind of big deal. If anything they should do a lot more.
This isn’t even necessarily true. You’re projecting. You don’t speak for anyone else.
Most people can relate to male, female or gay characters. But like i said that doesn't change the well-known fact, that males often pick male characters and females often pick female characters. (i.e. World of Warcraft, US servers, ~26% are female gamers (https://kotaku.com/study-shows-which-video-game-genres-women-play-most-1791435415) -> https://realmpop.com/us.html).
Who is making this a big deal?
It's only the insecure LGBTQ community who make this a big deal. It's usually them who demonstrate their sexuality and rub it to the faces of others.
There's this assumption that if a character hasn't come out and confirmed their sexuality it automatically means they are straight. You do the same and assume only 2 characters are LGBTQ but how do you know this? Is it confirmed that all the others are straight? Is it because you think straight people don't tend to make their sexuality a big deal (which contradicts your post)?
Simply put, who do you like to fuck should not be an important part of your character, unless it's a dating game or there is a story where the sexuality of the characters matter. Nobody cares otherwise. And if it seems i make this a big deal right now it's because i'm tired of the pandering and virtual signaling. That's the part that is a big deal for me, not the characters themselves.
There's a 10 page thread on it right here and I've read plenty about it all over the internet. Seems like almost everyone is making it a big deal. It was a pretty notable event.
I don't see how they are insecure. I think it's pretty cool if Overwatch wants to be a sort of vocal LGBTQ focused game and I think it's awesome if the community completely embraces that.
If Overwatch sets itself up prominently as a supporter of the LGBTQ community then that's brilliant.
It more or less fits things that people have been asking for. The franchise is relatively young so it's not like anyone is rewriting or changing well established characters and franchises.
For sure, a characters sexuality is not important. For us. For some people that is a big deal and I am fine with Overwatch being the game that lets them have that.
A new franchise with a specific vision of diversity and inclusion that they never tried to hide. They hear their fans demanding LGBTQ characters and they oblige. Good. They should stick to their vision and they should cater to their actual fans. They aren't rewriting history or messing around with established characters.
Is it "virtue signalling"? Hell yes. Is it pandering? For sure.
That's OK though. This game always set itself up that way and it's cool that they are doing what their fans want. The fans seem real happy about it too.
Non-straight people kind of do have a need to make some kind of "big deal" about their sexuality to set themselves apart from the majority anyway.
Otherwise people will just assume they are straight.
Why would they set themselves apart from the majority? If a straight person wants to date a gay person, than the gay person can tell the straight person that he/she is gay as soon as the straight person approaches him.
True but in a society where straight is the norm and the majority is it really any surprise at all that people who are not straight see that as a big component of their identity?
Given that it is a big part of their identity does is not then make sense that they would want to express that openly?
That expression of identity then sets them apart from the majority, right?
This seems pretty normal to me. That someone who is not part of the majority or the norm likes to express that in open ways.
Glad to see at least some of us in here understand the difference between individuals living their own lives and institutional/systemic pushing of an agenda to idealize a minority.Why is being gay a big part of their identity that at the same time must be expressed in every possible way? What does change in a relationship, which is not a romantic relationship, between a gay and a straight person? How does being gay alter such a relationship? What does a gay person expect from others, when he or she is gay and they're not in romantic relationship?
If you are gay. That's okay. If you are straight. That's okay. If i don't want to fuck you, i don't need to know if you're gay because it changes nothing for me, for you and between us.
There's a difference between expressing and living your life the way you want, which is totally fine, compared to telling everybody that you're gay and expect others to change because you assume you're different.
So you don't discuss your other romantic relationships with your friends? Why is it weird a homosexual person may wanna discuss his/hers just as openly without weirding people out? I had a gay friend who came out much much later and used to tell us about this or that gorgeous blue eyed girl he was going on with only to eventually tell me yeah those were all dudes, I just didn't feel free to discuss that with you guys at the time. It's pretty sad to have to live like that.
I originally thought making Solider 69 gay was a bit silly but Blizz can do with their characters whatever. After 10 pages of discussion here I now fully support Blizzard in their decision and wish their whole Overwatch roster turns into a veritable LGBTQ+ circus. Bring it on!
Funny thing is that I was posting myself on previous pages, so what you accuse me of is a bit funny. You must have followed the discussion really carefully if you were not blinded by the gold usernameIt's always appreciated if someone makes a post without even knowing what people said on any of the 10 pages. But at least you're a gold member, so even if your posts don't add anything to the thread because you obviously didn't read the posts, i gave you a like.