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[hariseldon]

I wasn't even talking about DOA.
But the argument that something isn't "for someone" is not exactly valid here. The criticism also goes beyond just design decisions in the games and looks at the messages sexualized designs send, holding content creators accountable. This is what triggers most content creators. Not liking their stuff is fine, but saying that their stuff has negative effects triggers defiant reactions. No one likes to hear that their content is sexist, because most people don't consider themselves sexist.
But the whiny reactions and complaints about "SJWs" are not good attempts at defending their art or justifying their decisions.
If they would try to understand what people criticize about their creations they would better be able to counter these arguments, because, obviously, not everything is valid. But they don't even try to do that, they don't even begin to think about the responsibility they have as creators of mass media.

The thing is, the negative effects you speak of are unproven. Rather they're a figleaf behind which you hide your authoritarianism. I see you have chosen to ignore my post where I point out the difference between criticising something in a proper critique and the preachy stuff that happens today - had you considered addressing that you'd perhaps understand that artists should be under no obligation to censor games for the sake of the outraged minority, for whom games exist not as an interest but a platform for activism.

 

[mcjmetroid]

Most people agree with him. It’s the vocal minority on social media that don’t. Give it another 5 years and we’ll be back to normal.

I hope you're right but my fear is this will get worse.
You know how we view the current older generation as racist and old fashioned sometimes.

I just hope that doesn't turn out to be us..

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

When I was a kid, mobs, in the form of angry parents, banned the Mazinger Z show from TV. They said it was violent and inadequate for chidren. Like those parents, the current twitter SJW mob are not consumers of the products they complain about. Companies have believed the faux sociology studies that speak about a "culture revolution" that never happened. There is no "new audiences" willing to buy their games. You cannot betray your fanbase in favour of people who are not interested in games but media manipulation.

As of now this developer and many after them should develop games as per their own vision and only care for their true fans, who are the ones actually supporting their business.

 

[angelic]

I also wasn't talking about Tekken. I was just talking about Soul Calibur, which is a franchise I like and have been playing for many years now. And for many years I have criticized the character designs.

Whichever game, you're still wrong. Your opinion is allowed, but the games arent for you. I don't lobby the makers of strategy games to show more titilation.

Quick rule of thumb, look at game, decide is this for me? If answer = no, then don't complain about it.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

The thing is, the negative effects you speak of are unproven.

This isn't a "do video games cause violence" debate. Its about cultural context and media effects.

Compare it to the advertising industry. It also sells us pictures and ideals and norms and feelings to associate with certain brands or products. Proving that this actually works is impossible on the individual level, yet, it's a trillion dollar industry.
Video games aren't advertisements, but they are also media products. The norms and values portrayed in video games influence us in the same way norms and values in ads influence us. It doesn't matter that we know its fantasy, just like it doesn't matter that we know that ads are ads. Our subconscious doesn't distinguish and constructs its own reality based on the stuff its presented with.

So the allegation is that sexist character designs in video games or certain "tropes" reproduce societal norms many people object against.
You can now say that you don't care about that, or you can argue that you don't think perpetuating these norms is problematic, but you can't argue that it doesn't have an effect because that would fly in the face of the very principle a trillion dollar industry is based on and thats a really, really tough point to argue and would require an ungodly amount of evidence to prove, because you would have to explain why advertising is supposed to have an effect people while other forms of media don't.

Whichever game, you're still wrong. Your opinion is allowed, but the games arent for you. I don't lobby the makers of strategy games to show more titilation.

Quick rule of thumb, look at game, decide is this for me? If answer = no, then don't complain about it.

Soul Calibur is the only fighting game I like. Its very much for me.

 

[hariseldon]

1 1.21Gigawatts You make a lot of claims without substance or proof. Advertising doesn't change anyone's morals. Advertising gets a brand name in front of you so that you're aware of it, and presents the object in a positive light encouraging you to purchase it. Personally I doubt a person's moral positions are as easily-swayed as their purchasing choices. I'd like to see some receipts for your claims please.

What exactly do you think these 'sexist' character designs cause? What undesirable behaviour does it elicit? Honestly your whole argument is built on sand, and continues to be a fig-leaf for authoritarianism. Surely, if the majority have made a choice that they're ok with it, a minority doesn't have a right to kick and shout and scream until it's taken away.

Further, you are still avoiding my point about how campaigning on this stuff has changed, and that's telling. Read my post on the previous page. I point out how we used to take the piss out of female armour and now instead we have humourless morons preaching - they lack the subtlety and the wit to make their point in an effective way. If you truly believed in your argument you'd not want people to be attacking devs on social media (doxxing etc) to get their own way, you'd want your side to engage in nuanced debate of the issues because you would have confidence that you could win by being right. Your side's approach instead is to shut down debate (or rather shout it down) and that's healthy for nobody. You are the metaphorical book burner and that's not a path I'd recommend travelling down.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

And for many years I have criticized the character designs.

You say that as if it meant something. Criticisms are like sharing your dreams. Nobody wants to hear about it, it really only affects and is of interest to you, and most of the time, they operate on weird dream logic which has no bearings on the real world outside your head. That's not to say that there aren't good, noteworthy dreams out there - it's just that people are incapable of telling if their dreams are the good kind or not and all seem to think their George Clooney covered in peanut butter dream is unique. It's not. We've all had that one. Sometimes, repeatedly. Like every night. Or so I've heard.

 

[JimmyJones]

I hope you're right but my fear is this will get worse.
You know how we view the current older generation as racist and old fashioned sometimes.

I just hope that doesn't turn out to be us..

I go to college with people a lot younger than me and they all seem pretty clued in on this shit. It will pass eventually.

 

[angelic]

This isn't a "do video games cause violence" debate. Its about cultural context and media effects.

Compare it to the advertising industry. It also sells us pictures and ideals and norms and feelings to associate with certain brands or products. Proving that this actually works is impossible on the individual level, yet, it's a trillion dollar industry.
Video games aren't advertisements, but they are also media products. The norms and values portrayed in video games influence us in the same way norms and values in ads influence us. It doesn't matter that we know its fantasy, just like it doesn't matter that we know that ads are ads. Our subconscious doesn't distinguish and constructs its own reality based on the stuff its presented with.

So the allegation is that sexist character designs in video games or certain "tropes" reproduce societal norms many people object against.
You can now say that you don't care about that, or you can argue that you don't think perpetuating these norms is problematic, but you can't argue that it doesn't have an effect because that would fly in the face of the very principle a trillion dollar industry is based on and thats a really, really tough point to argue and would require an ungodly amount of evidence to prove, because you would have to explain why advertising is supposed to have an effect people while other forms of media don't.





Soul Calibur is the only fighting game I like. Its very much for me.

Well you'll be a happier person if you accept it for what it is. It's not sexist, it's basically showing fantasy ultimate form versions of both men and women, with flesh on show for both.

 

[azz0r]

Its a game built on stereotypes, the fuck is this guy smoking

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

You say that as if it meant something. Criticisms are like sharing your dreams. Nobody wants to hear about it, it really only affects and is of interest to you, and most of the time, they operate on weird dream logic which has no bearings on the real world outside your head.

If these opinions are so irrelevant, why are so many people constantly throwing a fit over them?
Creators reacting to criticism of their work is understandable, but the general gamer reaction indicates that they perceive these opinions as something far from irrelevant.

 

[hariseldon]

If these opinions are so irrelevant, why are so many people constantly throwing a fit over them?
Creators reacting to criticism of their work is understandable, but the general gamer reaction indicates that they perceive these opinions as something far from irrelevant.

You mistake being irritated at the barrage of activism as throwing a fit. Again you're being disingenuous, and avoiding answering critique of your position that absolutely skewers you. Your debating technique is poor.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

If these opinions are so irrelevant, why are so many people constantly throwing a fit over them?

Frankly, your opinions are offensively stupid. I mean, you don't like the character designs in Soul Calibur 6. Great. You think the character designs are worse because the graphics are better? What now? You think people who like the character designs are pedophiles? Fuck off with that. I mean, you are welcome to have these opinions, but the people around you are graciously offering you a clue. You should take them up on the offer.

 

[Tiamat2san]

I don't "love" it, but I certainly have nothing against it. It serves a niche and contributes to the diversity among fighting games.

The issue I have isn't the content, but the obvious double standards with which it's judged.



Nah. I was banned from there for a week for daring to defend Valkyria Chronicles 4 against the false accusations of some western journalist hunting for controversy.

Banned for the assassin’s creed odyssey forced child situation

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

You mistake being irritated at the barrage of activism as throwing a fit.

Have you ever taken a look at Youtube where there dozens upon dozens of channels talking about nothing than "SJWs" and "Feminazis"? People make a living off of that. This is much more than "being irritated".

Again you're being disingenuous, and avoiding answering critique of your position that absolutely skewers you. Your debating technique is poor.

What critique? All people said so far was: "why do you care?", "these games aren't meant for you", "there is no prove that the media we consume affects the way we view the world" and "alleging sexism makes you the sexist".
Yeah... thats some high quality criticism.

Frankly, your opinions are offensively stupid. I mean, you don't like the character designs in Soul Calibur 6. Great.

I think they are sexist.

You think the character designs are worse because the graphics are better?

The designs were sexist all along, but better graphics allowed for more detailed sexualized depictions.

You think people who like the character designs are pedophiles?

Maybe a couple, but thats not the point here. The sexualization is the problem.
But also only in the context of the entire industry. The individual case is never the problem, but the overall trend is.

Fuck off with that. I mean, you are welcome to have these opinions, but the people around you are graciously offering you a clue. You should take them up on the offer.

People like sexualized character designs. So much so that they fight tooth and nails for them. Fine by me, but don't be butthurt when people call these designs sexist.
Liking something sexist doesn't make you a sexist, but acting like it isn't sexist does.

 

[WhiskeyDiver]

In the meanwhile, the western press applauds the display of more of our "core values."

Spoiler: Warning: NSFW

Not gonna lie, I laughed at that, because Kano's skellybone eye sockets have the look of "Oh shit! Not again!"

 

[hariseldon]

*sigh* ok I give up. Talking to the religiously-SJW is a waste of time. Go ahead, do your pigeon thing.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

I think they are sexist.

Okay, let's dive a little deeper here. Assuming you know the difference between sexist and sexy, how are the character designs sexist?

The designs were sexist all along, but better graphics allowed for more detailed sexualized depictions.

Oh, maybe you don't know the difference between sexist and sexy...

But also only in the context of the entire industry. The individual case is never the problem, but the overall trend is.

So you are saying that it doesn't matter what SC6 does, as the village is damned anyway?

People like sexualized character designs. So much so that they fight tooth and nails for them. Fine by me, but don't be butthurt when people call these designs sexist.

Again, you are confusing sexist with sexy.

 

[Tiamat2san]

This is all hearsay, tales from the ass. No proof, no figures, meaningless. While you're right to want swastikas in Wolfenstein, you can't say "women get paid less here". Where are the stats? And then the stats need context, in most of the world (women-opressing societies aside), the pay stats are skewed because of the extremes of the bell curve, more CEOs).

This is why so many arguments fail, the stats arent real, and even if presented, they have context and nuance.

In France women aren’ Paid equally.
I checked with my female colleagues.
But we aren’t afraid of boobs.
Hell, our symbol (marianne) shows a nipple while lifting our flag on a barricade.
Violence is often criticised but is not banned.
But we have our SJW too, I hate this.
You can’t say anything anymore.
Go Harada!

 

[Saruhashi]

I said this before, but the hypocrisy is what perplexes me the most. Everyone hates on sexy game characters, yet worship half naked and provocative pop stars, Instagram and Facebook models who use their bodies and sex appeal to garner attention and fans. Wow, that girl in doa is disgusting and too sexy, but that fake looking girl with the revealing booty shorts twerking on stage is my hero!!!

Consent.

As best as I can tell the issue is that your fictional characters cannot consent to be dressed that way.

Think of how many of these criticisms of videogame characters are presented as if the character is a real person.
It's even the same with NPC characters.

I don't know why that is but it seems to be at the heart of a lot of these criticisms.

I know for sure that if games started including stuff I don't like or I'm not interested in then I just don't bother with them.
There are plenty of genres and styles that just aren't my thing.

Others take a different approach on this whereby "it's not for me" equates to "it's exclusionary".
I just don't understand why though.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Okay, let's dive a little deeper here. Assuming you know the difference between sexist and sexy, how are the character designs sexist?

Ridiculously overblown sexual features and full on catering towards male fantasy stereotypes.

Oh, maybe you don't know the difference between sexist and sexy...

They aren't mutually exclusive, although I wouldn't call any of the designs in SC6 "sexy", they are just ridiculous.

So you are saying that it doesn't matter what SC6 does, as the village is damned anyway?

The industry as a whole has a long way to go. It's understandable that an industry that was historically mostly male and mostly catering to young male audiences shows these signs of creative biases.
The problem is never the individual product, though, but the overall messaging and imaging thats created.
Media effects work through mass and repetition. Just like seeing one Marlboro ad won't make connect the brand to the values of freedom and fun presented in the ad. But seeing hundreds and hundred of them over the course of decades will influence the way you perceive the brand/product.
In games its the same: Isolated sexist stories, characters or designs aren't the problem, but repeated problematic displays have an influence on the consumers and reproduce problematic norms.

Again, you are confusing sexist with sexy.

No I'm not.

 

[Saruhashi]

Ridiculously overblown sexual features and full on catering towards male fantasy stereotypes.

Can you break down exactly how that is sexist?

I hear what you are saying. Some character designs are crazy over the top. Some character designs are definitely intended to be interpreted as sexy. Some character designs are for sure just meant to appeal to male fantasy whatever.

How is any of that sexist though? It just doesn't match up for me that some artist drawing an exaggeratedly sexy woman is sexist.

Don't these games often have exaggerated male characters also?

 

[angelic]

In France women aren’ Paid equally.
I checked with my female colleagues.
But we aren’t afraid of boobs.
Hell, our symbol (marianne) shows a nipple while lifting our flag on a barricade.
Violence is often criticised but is not banned.
But we have our SJW too, I hate this.
You can’t say anything anymore.
Go Harada!

This is not evidence. The rest, correct.

 

[Shakka43]

Did Harada San just become... Problematic?

 

[Vampire On Titus]

This isn't a "do video games cause violence" debate. Its about cultural context and media effects.

Compare it to the advertising industry. It also sells us pictures and ideals and norms and feelings to associate with certain brands or products. Proving that this actually works is impossible on the individual level, yet, it's a trillion dollar industry.

That's not evidence of the psychological influence you're asserting. It could just as easily be the case that advertising doesn't shape values, it appeals to values shaped by personality type, upbringing, ideology, biology, etc. How much money the industry generates isn't paramount to this discussion. It's not like that's some smoking gun for proving your intuition. You're just asserting a social constructionist conception of reality, not proving it.

This isn't a "do video games cause violence" debate. Its about cultural context and media effects.

Yes it is. You just have to distance yourself from that obviously similar, also social constructionist, argument because it's been so thoroughly discredited. The major difference being that your claim is even more tenuous because a game like Grand Theft Auto is undeniably violent and a game like Dead Or Alive is only subjectively sexist.

The dichotomy you set up doesn't even make sense. Why would a discussion on the subconscious effects of video game violence be any less about "cultural context and media effects?" It of course wouldn't be. There's just study after study proving that argument wrong.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Ridiculously overblown sexual features and full on catering towards male fantasy stereotypes.

You've just described sexy, not sexist. The male characters are like that too. Voldo? Maxi? Astaroth? Zasalamel? How is it sexist to treat the male and female characters exactly the same?

They aren't mutually exclusive...

But they aren't related either. Sexy and sexist are two completely different concepts that you can't seem to separate in your head. If something is sexy, it is sexist? No. Just no. Only idiots would think that (and there are plenty of idiots out there, unfortunately).

The industry as a whole has a long way to go. It's understandable that an industry that was historically mostly male and mostly catering to young male audiences shows these signs of creative biases.

This is a different discussion for a different day, but there's a reason why this is the case and it isn't sexism. The industry has been one of the most accepting industries in existence, promoting female creators like Roberta Williams and transgender creators like Dani Bunten. Infocom, for example, had a woman design a for-women romance adventure game called Plundered Hearts. The idea that the industry was historically mostly male has more to due with the technological aspects of it rather than any sort of sexism. Sexism was FAR more common in other technological fields (it was rampant at IBM at the time), so if anything, the game industry was a leader in equality.

I'm just sick of people pretending like the game industry has been a boys club when it has always been an everybody's club. It's just that mostly boys showed up. It's not sexism when it is self selection.

The problem is never the individual product, though, but the overall messaging and imaging thats created.

Please elaborate on this. You go into it briefly below, but I'm specifically looking for what you think the messaging is that Soul Calibur 6 is sending.

Media effects work through mass and repetition. Just like seeing one Marlboro ad won't make connect the brand to the values of freedom and fun presented in the ad. But seeing hundreds and hundred of them over the course of decades will influence the way you perceive the brand/product.

I've always associated Marlboro with cancer. Maybe I'm just weird.

In games its the same: Isolated sexist stories, characters or designs aren't the problem, but repeated problematic displays have an influence on the consumers and reproduce problematic norms.

So you are saying that Soul Calibur 6, isolated from the rest of the game industry, is fine with its character designs? It is the "problematic norms" which are the problem with it?

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Can you break down exactly how that is sexist?

Its objectification based on stereotypical sexualization and fetishization.

I hear what you are saying. Some character designs are crazy over the top. Some character designs are definitely intended to be interpreted as sexy. Some character designs are for sure just meant to appeal to male fantasy whatever.

How is any of that sexist though? It just doesn't match up for me that some artist drawing an exaggeratedly sexy woman is sexist.

What do you think sexism means? Hating women? Thinking women are inferior to men?
Sure these would be special cases of sexism, but the term is much wider.

Don't these games often have exaggerated male characters also?

Yes.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Its objectification based on stereotypical sexualization and fetishization.

I hear what you are saying. Some character designs are crazy over the top. Some character designs are definitely intended to be interpreted as sexy. Some character designs are for sure just meant to appeal to male fantasy whatever.


What do you think sexism means? Hating women? Thinking women are inferior to men?
Sure these would be special cases of sexism, but the term is much wider.


Yes.

No. The term isn't "much wider". You are just trying to force your personal interpretation of a term to fit what you deem to be "problematic".


sexism
noun
sex·ism | \ ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm \
Definition of sexism

1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

However, you will desperately try to twist this and jump through logical loopholes to justify your silly view. Do better, mate.

 

[GreenAlien]

Edit: Deleted.. That might have been too close to a personal attack and I wasn't happy with it.

 

[Barnabot]

Why don't Harada create a SJW char so full of their shit that he/she is actually a bad guy/girl who promotes violence among people over some bullshit. Also make this char not self aware at all.

There you go!

Although it will never top Jim Kazama on the assholeness level.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

No. The term isn't "much wider". You are just trying to force your personal interpretation of a term to fit what you deem to be "problematic".

A dictionary reflects the colloquial meaning of a term. It never reflects the meaning in its entirety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
Here you can get a grip of the many facets of sexism.

sexism
noun
sex·ism | \ ˈsek-ˌsi-zəm \
Definition of sexism

1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex
2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

1. Is the real life effect.
2. Is the mechanism.

-> A design reflects the biases and stereotypes of the artist. If these biases and stereotypes are reproduced en masse they start to shape the societal norm and the people behind the "caricatures" are facing real life prejudice and discrimination.

Thats pretty much how anti-semitic propaganda worked as well. Imagine instead of Ivy there was a stereotypical jew in SC6. And then imagine if hundreds of games also had similar stereotypical representations of jews.
Now watch that unfold over the course of decades and you see how these stereotypes are internalized and jews start to face prejudice and discrimination based on it.

However, you will desperately try to twist this and jump through logical loopholes to justify your silly view. Do better, mate.

Come on, you cited a dictionary to assert the scope and depth of a term like sexism. And what you cited didn't even back up your position, you simply didn't understand it.

 

[BlackTron]

I think games like Soul Calibur pander to the ultimate fantasy stereotypes of both genders. Generally speaking, I think men are more affected by superficial appearances, whereas women like a bit more subtlety -into a male figure for other reasons as well. This is why Mitsurugi can be very attractive while wearing armor.

This is why men will send women dick pics en masse thinking they're getting somewhere. They assume the woman will, first and foremost, be into what they are, ie, superficial physical attributes.

I would say, make a game to "balance it out" with 80% scantily clad sexy men and 20% more conservative women, for the lady fighting gamers out there. Except, I think a title like Soul Calibur is already providing what both genders want in the ultimate fantasy of the opposite sex. This conceptual title would probably appeal mostly to gay guys.

And you know what? That's perfectly fine. Make whatever game you want, for whatever market you want. If the developers want to simply make a game that appeals to the widest audience, you get the fighting games we've been getting.

I want to believe that pandering to all the SJW's will result in lower sales because they aren't actually buying games. and that it will course-correct on itself. But wouldn't it be funny if the game companies doing whatever the SJW's want got bailed out by democrats so we all get to pay?

Actually, NO it wouldn't lol.

 

[Raph64]

Now that I think about it, I wonder if video game adverts like this would still be tolerated nowadays :

“ If you love super hits... Tekken 2 will burst you ! “

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Thats pretty much how anti-semitic propaganda worked as well. Imagine instead of Ivy there was a stereotypical jew in SC6. And then imagine if hundreds of games also had similar stereotypical representations of jews.
Now watch that unfold over the course of decades and you see how these stereotypes are internalized and jews start to face prejudice and discrimination based on it.

So, Ivy wearing sexy clothes is, in your mind, equivalent to a racist caricature?

Look, let's just get to the meat of the discussion... Why are sexy characters bad? Objectification, I think you said. Do you think that objectification of men is the same as objectification of women? And what is the point where the objectification would end and a character's design would be acceptable in your eyes? Is there a point where a character's design could be attractive but not be objectification?

 

[KormaChameleon]

Me too mate! We are tired of SJWs and the controlled left.

 

[nani17]

I'm sick and tired of SJWs "I'm offended by that song" you're in your mid 20s grow the fuck up.

 

[BlackTron]

So, Ivy wearing sexy clothes is, in your mind, equivalent to a racist caricature?

Look, let's just get to the meat of the discussion... Why are sexy characters bad? Objectification, I think you said. Do you think that objectification of men is the same as objectification of women? And what is the point where the objectification would end and a character's design would be acceptable in your eyes? Is there a point where a character's design could be attractive but not be objectification?

I think the meat is that scores of people just aren't comfortable with their own sexuality and we all have to watch them try to warp reality to adapt to their own psychosis.

I wonder how often most of these whiners and complainers actually get laid

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

So, Ivy wearing sexy clothes is, in your mind, equivalent to a racist caricature?

Your reading comprehension is lacking.
I described the mechanism.
Racist stereotypes in media shape societal norm through the same mechanism as sexist stereotypes in media shape societal norms.

The main difference in this comparison is that anti-semitic propaganda is deliberately designed, while sexist stereotypes are just the result of a historical bias in gender roles and norms thats reproduced by creators, especially in a male dominated industry.

Look, let's just get to the meat of the discussion... Why are sexy characters bad?

Sexy characters aren't bad. Only when that "sexiness" is based on stereotypical and sexualized portrayals.

Objectification, I think you said. Do you think that objectification of men is the same as objectification of women?

Depends on the context. What kind of objectification and which viewpoints and stereotypes are at play in the objectification.
Sexual objectification of men exists, obviously, but works a lot differently from sexual objectification of women.

And what is the point where the objectification would end and a character's design would be acceptable in your eyes? Is there a point where a character's design could be attractive but not be objectification?

No clear line. Which is why people want to raise awareness and make creators think about what they are creating and how audiences view it and how it might affect their thinking and whether or not thats a good thing or not.

Its also not like sexist designs are inherently bad. With the right contextualization they can be perfectly fine.

 

[Dr. Claus]

A dictionary reflects the colloquial meaning of a term. It never reflects the meaning in its entirety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
Here you can get a grip of the many facets of sexism.



1. Is the real life effect.
2. Is the mechanism.

-> A design reflects the biases and stereotypes of the artist. If these biases and stereotypes are reproduced en masse they start to shape the societal norm and the people behind the "caricatures" are facing real life prejudice and discrimination.

Thats pretty much how anti-semitic propaganda worked as well. Imagine instead of Ivy there was a stereotypical jew in SC6. And then imagine if hundreds of games also had similar stereotypical representations of jews.
Now watch that unfold over the course of decades and you see how these stereotypes are internalized and jews start to face prejudice and discrimination based on it.



Come on, you cited a dictionary to assert the scope and depth of a term like sexism. And what you cited didn't even back up your position, you simply didn't understand it.

Thank you for proving my previously made point, mate!

However, you will desperately try to twist this and jump through logical loopholes to justify your silly view. Do better, mate.

 

[Saruhashi]

Its objectification based on stereotypical sexualization and fetishization.

What do you think sexism means? Hating women? Thinking women are inferior to men?
Sure these would be special cases of sexism, but the term is much wider.

For me, I just go with the dictionary definition.

In terms of stereotypical sexualization I have always maintained that if you go out in any major city in the world on a Saturday night you will see people engaging fully and happily in that form of stereotyping. On both sides, really.

I'm not sure if it's fetishization though. A woman goes out in a revealing outfit and a guy thinks "she's hot" and goes to talk to her. 5 years later they are married and happily living together. That's a fetish?

Of course, in games that will be exaggerated but games are not reality and exaggeration is the norm across the board.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Your reading comprehension is lacking.

Not according to my SAT scores.

I described the mechanism.
Racist stereotypes in media shape societal norm through the same mechanism as sexist stereotypes in media shape societal norms.

You knew what you were doing. Irregardless, don't you think that there is the possibility that the media is a reflection of social norms rather than the originator of them? Do you believe that if you change the media, then you will change the social norms? If you do, then do you think it is the responsibility of media creators to design their media in such a way as to only send positive messages about society to others with the express goal of changing the thoughts and feelings of those who consume it?

Sexy characters aren't bad. Only when that "sexiness" is based on stereotypical and sexualized portrayals.

I'm not seeing the distinction. What is an example of a sexy character that is not based on stereotypical and sexualized portrayals?

No clear line. Which is why people want to raise awareness and make creators think about what they are creating and how audiences view it and how it might affect their thinking and whether or not thats a good thing or not.

Here's something I'd like you to be aware of. Ivy is not a person. Ivy is not a she. Ivy is an it. A literal object. It is an object that has been designed to appear as a human female. This is literally the opposite of objectification. This is personification. Ivy cannot be objectification because you can not objectify something that is already an object.

But, you could say that Ivy's portrayal leads others to objectify women. But how do you know? I mean, I don't. I'm very clear on the fact that Ivy is an object that has been designed by people for the purposes of giving human attributes to what is essentially a bunch of moving boxes. I don't confuse Ivy with my wife. My wife is a real person. So, if I'm not objectifying women, why do you think I am? Is it because you are the one objectifying women, and projecting that confusion of reality and fantasy on others?

Another thing you might not have considered is that our definition of sexy is BASED on the social norms. Back in Victorian England, showing a little bit of ankle was considered scandalous. And they had burlesque shows that were designed around showing legs covered in stockings. Could it not be possible that by changing the social norms to where you think is acceptable, we'll just create a new definition of "too sexy"? If Ivy's outfit is too far now, isn't it entirely possible, even likely, that we'll eventually reach a point where showing a little ankle is too far? What's the point of regressing society's freedoms if the core issue will just follow?

Its also not like sexist designs are inherently bad. With the right contextualization they can be perfectly fine.

Ok, I agree with you on this, but I suspect we differ on what. For instance, I consider a burka to be a sexist design (seeing as it is literally designed to reduce women to objects), but I think a burka could be appropriately used in a game about sexual freedom.

Can you give an example of a sexist design that you think is not inherently bad?

 

[Saruhashi]

I think the meat is that scores of people just aren't comfortable with their own sexuality and we all have to watch them try to warp reality to adapt to their own psychosis.

I wonder how often most of these whiners and complainers actually get laid

I wouldn't be so harsh but, yeah, sometimes I do wonder what the inside of a relationship looks like for some of these folks.

I laugh at that image of the Waypoint guy covering his eyes while playing Yakuza cos there is a woman in lingerie on the screen.
It's so weird though. I'd love to see that guy being forced to work as a bouncer at a popular nightclub for a Saturday evening. He'd freak the hell out!

Even for myself, I spend a lot of time in online bubbles then I might be out at a bar while visiting friends and the stuff you see is like... some of these conversations online about the appearance of women in games and the pandering to males feel disconnected from reality.

 

[BlackTron]

I wouldn't be so harsh but, yeah, sometimes I do wonder what the inside of a relationship looks like for some of these folks.

I laugh at that image of the Waypoint guy covering his eyes while playing Yakuza cos there is a woman in lingerie on the screen.
It's so weird though. I'd love to see that guy being forced to work as a bouncer at a popular nightclub for a Saturday evening. He'd freak the hell out!

Even for myself, I spend a lot of time in online bubbles then I might be out at a bar while visiting friends and the stuff you see is like... some of these conversations online about the appearance of women in games and the pandering to males feel disconnected from reality.

Maybe I'm harsh, but these people try to tell you how to live your life, then you're supposed to walk around eggshells on how to respond.

I say, GET LOST!

Maybe they do get laid, after pontificating over how much smarter they are because they met while studying economics at Yale over 17 expensive dinners.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little

 

[hariseldon]

I wouldn't be so harsh but, yeah, sometimes I do wonder what the inside of a relationship looks like for some of these folks.

I laugh at that image of the Waypoint guy covering his eyes while playing Yakuza cos there is a woman in lingerie on the screen.
It's so weird though. I'd love to see that guy being forced to work as a bouncer at a popular nightclub for a Saturday evening. He'd freak the hell out!

Even for myself, I spend a lot of time in online bubbles then I might be out at a bar while visiting friends and the stuff you see is like... some of these conversations online about the appearance of women in games and the pandering to males feel disconnected from reality.

I wonder how these fuckers would feel if they went to a beach or a swimming pool.. oh my god the objectification!

 

[Abriael_GN]

For a moment, I thought I was reading the wrong forum.

No clear line. Which is why people want to raise awareness and make creators think about what they are creating and how audiences view it and how it might affect their thinking and whether or not thats a good thing or not..

No, most people involved in this kind of witch hunt don't want to "raise awareness." They want creators to bow down to their personal arbitrary ideas of where that line is (which is normally all the way to the non-sexy side, as reviews of Dead or Alive 6 aptly prove), and to fully adopt their very specific way or thinking or bust.

The only "good thing" for the easily offended is for developers who come from different cultures which view sexuality in a different way to completely and unequivocally capitulate to theirs, in order to give them a political victory.

If the developers don't promptly do so or stray even a little from the mark, they're all kinds of bad things, and the personal attacks, calls for boycotts and for people to lose their job start to ensue. It's literally personal aggression and harassment.

Quite obviously, developers are starting to tire of that, and it was about time.

 

[Shai-Tan]

This isn't a "do video games cause violence" debate. Its about cultural context and media effects.

Compare it to the advertising industry. It also sells us pictures and ideals and norms and feelings to associate with certain brands or products. Proving that this actually works is impossible on the individual level, yet, it's a trillion dollar industry.
Video games aren't advertisements, but they are also media products. The norms and values portrayed in video games influence us in the same way norms and values in ads influence us. It doesn't matter that we know its fantasy, just like it doesn't matter that we know that ads are ads. Our subconscious doesn't distinguish and constructs its own reality based on the stuff its presented with.

So the allegation is that sexist character designs in video games or certain "tropes" reproduce societal norms many people object against.
You can now say that you don't care about that, or you can argue that you don't think perpetuating these norms is problematic, but you can't argue that it doesn't have an effect because that would fly in the face of the very principle a trillion dollar industry is based on and thats a really, really tough point to argue and would require an ungodly amount of evidence to prove, because you would have to explain why advertising is supposed to have an effect people while other forms of media don't.





Soul Calibur is the only fighting game I like. Its very much for me.

I don't have deep knowledge of the psychology of advertising but first pass reaction is that's a tendentious interpretation of it's media effects. Much of it is mundane like branding to make one slightly less indifferent between two or more nearly identical products. There's also a subfield drawing on evolutionary psychology which suggests these effects aren't unconscious they're exploiting the signaling of status, affinity to a group or identity, desire for sex, disgust response, moral triangulation etc

I did do reading about cultivation theory in games. In areas of social science that are difficult to investigate ideology fills the void. It may seem plausible but so did the theory that bad behavior in games indirectly affects social scripts that lead to real world aggression. It looks like the upper bound on such effects is quite small.

https://areomagazine.com/2018/08/30/feminist-frequency-and-the-truth-about-video-games/

edit: to be clear, yes social norms are mediated by culture - the question is how? Different theories need to be tested because it could turn out that popular culture is more of a reflection of prevailing attitudes than a difference maker. I haven't seen evidence of big cultivation effects in media and they have to be put in context of explicit discussion in person, in news, on social media that has much more obvious effects on attitudes than implicit cultivation or moralized narratives

 

[bilderberg]

Anyone finding sexy designs 'sexist' i feel have some deep rooted sexism within themselves they are projecting onto everyone else. The vast majority of us can look at a sexy character and thinking nothing else of it, where as these other people arguing "stereotypical objectifying fetishization" seriously have some issues they need to work out. Arguing big boobs is fetishization says more about you than anyone else.

 

[hariseldon]

Arguing big boobs is fetishization says more about you than anyone else.

Actually there's no way to win. Big boobs is fetishization, small boobs is paedophilia.

 

[Barnabot]

Anyone finding sexy designs 'sexist' i feel have some deep rooted sexism within themselves they are projecting onto everyone else. The vast majority of us can look at a sexy character and thinking nothing else of it, where as these other people arguing "stereotypical objectifying fetishization" seriously have some issues they need to work out. Arguing big boobs is fetishization says more about you than anyone else.

Actually there's no way to win. Big boobs is fetishization, small boobs is paedophilia.

 

[K1Expwy]

I think you meant they used to be careful about attacking cultures, but now under feminism, they have no issue attacking Japanese culture now.

Japan entered into a symmetrical conflict with the US. Aside from the details of that extensive topic, America didn't have a problem with them. Back to what I said.

In the 2000s I read stories about how certain Chinese celebrities would wear a dress pattern or would make a comment that could possibly be interpreted as being pro-Tibet or pro-Japan or some other issue. China's internet rage mobs would be furious and would force the celebrity out of the public if not the country.

So I'm not really sure whether feminism and intersectionality etc is the disease or the symptom, especially when all of it has existed for decades.

I just mean that Americans don't resemble John McClane in Die Hard anymore, they're more like the snooty German yuppies (but not as well-dressed)