TeamGhobad
Banned
dont expect that til mid cycle. most games are gonna be crossgen for a loong time
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Rumor: PS5 devkits ~ 13 TFLOPS
- Thread starter onQ123
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dont expect that til mid cycle. most games are gonna be crossgen for a loong time
Stuart360
Member
Targeting 4k means the jump will probably be the smallest we have had between gens yet. People keep looking at the rumoured TF numbers then comparing them to the 1.3 and 1.8tf of XB1 and PS4, and drooling without thinking of 1080p vs 4k.
Next gen will be GOW at 4k/60, or slightly better looking than GOW at 4k/30. Which would still be great, dont get me wrong, but i just feel some people are going to be dissapointed.
LuvOfThaGame
Banned
I believe the dev kit, if true, is shooting above actual specs. 13, to me, makes me believe more in the 10-12 range.
SonGoku
Member
It could go either way (up or down). Just remember than most often than not early devkits feature lower GPU specs
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The Alien
Banned
Love me some Insomniac.
That'd be amazing (at least for XBox fans).
I was clamoring for that when they did Sunset. But now that spiderman was a crazy success the asking price would be huge. That also ignores they likely dont wanna be bought. Someone buying them would have to overpay on an already steep asking price.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Not for PS3 that was downgraded from the dev kit
Kenpachii
Member
Don't worry lots of buzz words like ultra PC power mega duper PC architecture 2.0,, 100k server mainframe raytracing tech, Faster then the fastest PC on ssd and GCI trailers of games that all get "optimized in the future" aka downgraded will make it easy for the fans to be hyped about lowish mid range pc hardware in 2020.
It's all about how you bring it in the marketing to the public.
thelastword
Banned
Here's the gist of it......
"HBM3: changing the formula.
HBM1 & HBM2 where two newcomers in the market, HBM2 fixed some limitations of the first gen. HBM1 like the maximum memory size, you still remember how the original Fury cards were limited to 4GB. Because the single package 1024bit module had a maximum size of 4GB by then. So to have 8GB of HBM1 you needed 2x 1024bit packages which will rise the cost for Fury.
HBM3 comes with more refinement, allowing higher size per package, faster clocks and more importantly, optional smaller bus at 512bit. This last bit is the game changer here, the narrower bus hit's the sweet spot to not require silicon interposer, here you can use a much cheaper organic interposer instead.
The HBM consortium decided this to widen the adoption of the standard more, by using a 512bit bus with the higher clocks the HBM3 allows, the new standard can achieve the same higher bandwidth with much lower cost by not requiring a silicon interposer at all.
How this can be implemented ?
The organic interposer we know is the same packaging material used today in MCM designs, like EPYC and Threadripper CPU's, and even regular Ryzen and Core CPU's, it can handle higher density routing than PCB with acceptable cost, that's why it's used to host the original CPU or GPU die, and reroute the die connections to the packaging where it's connects to the PCB.
HBM3 will not sit on the PCB like how GDDR are used now, instead it will sit on the same organic interposer as any other MCM design, so imagine Threadripper CPU package with on of the chiplets being replaced with HBM3 memory, now it's very possible with HBM3 without the addition cost of silicon interposer. This also allows lower Z-Height that what was when the silicon interposer was used. I used Threadripper as example here not because it will, we don't know. But because it uses the same organic interposer packaging that can allow HBM3 to be used.
Adding to that, Samsung also is trying to reduce the cost more by removing the buffer die which exists on all HBM chips and reduce the number of TSV's which will allow the chip to be used even in mainstream GPU's specially mobile ones where space and power saving is crucial. Removing the buffer die and reducing the TSV's will affect the total bandwidth but Samsung plans to increase the bus speed per pin to compensate. Current projections for these new cheaper HBM3's can reach 200GB/s compared to HBM2 current 256GB/s for the cheapest modules.
Long time to develop, coming in 2019/2020 timeframe:
Interestingly, this new lower cost HBM3 has been known for a while now but it seems we forgot about it, Samsung announced it back in 2016 along with GDDR6 but availability is only meant for 2019/2020 timeframe. So it will be interesting to see how late 2019 or 2020 APU's and GPU's will be. AMD can do marvels by then. Even HBM3 as L4 cache when the iGPU is not used can be a thing to think about if it's feasible."
Finally, this does not mean HBM3 will be inferior to HBM2 that high-end applications will not use it. It means HBM3 will allow more options including lower cost options, HBM3 will still be available in full 1024bit bus and requires silicon interposers where cost is not an issue like high-end applications. But also a lower cost option will be available to help with more market penetration where HBM's low power and size for memory bandwidth advantage is very important.
They changed a lot of PS3 specs though but the dev kit was weaker than the console
Detailed overview of PS3 development station vs. PS3 console
Originally posted by Gofreak elsewhere, but I thought it deserved its own thread: Translated from PC Express weekly: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/...2/kaigai199.htm SCEI and PS3 development kit schedule announced Sony Computer Entertainment held their yearly summary meeting...
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Yeah you're pulling this outta your butt.
SonGoku
Member
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
X at 6tf can do native or dynamic 4k most of the time. A 12tf system should be able to lock a native 4k no problem with power to spare.
From there it's all up to devs. Some devs like R* and ND focus on 30 fps, but kick ass visuals or scope.
I hope devs focus on 60 fps first. Making all games 4k/60 fps makes everything look better/smoother and that's without even boosting textures. Even dabbling with a Fallout 4 720p/60fps mod on Xbox was oddly nice looking for a Bethesda console game.
But then, not everyone has a 4k TV, so hoping for more visual options for gamers with 1080p tvs.
Will a 12tf system pump out native 4k/60fps at AAA polish and scope? Hopefully!
Silver Wattle
Gold Member
Can't we just start cramming all these random people saying shit "leaks" into a megathread?
Everytime I click on a new specs leak thread I am disappointed, the source is always shit.
Everytime I click on a new specs leak thread I am disappointed, the source is always shit.
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bitbydeath
Member
Yeah I think that is being looked at wrong.
People automatically go 4x power to get 4K so they divide the 12TF from the 4x and think well next-gen will only be 3TF games + 4K resolution but that isn’t correct.
As we know Cerny said we need 8TF for native 4K, and yes that was obviously directed at current gen games but the math doesn’t change.
That is really 8TF current gen in 4K + 4TF left over to bolster graphics, frame rate or whatever from what we have today, no additional math is required as it already incorporates 4K within the initial 6TF number.
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SonGoku
Member
thelastword
I want to believe but there are so many uncertainties with HBM3 being ready on time plus everything seems to be pointing towards GDDR6 with navi supporting it.
A couple of questions:
- What bandwidth can this cheap HBM3 with organic interposed offer on a 24GB setup?
- Can it even reach 24GB while staying at reasonable console prices?
- What if its not ready for mass production in time?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I thought Cerny said 8TF for current gen with the 4K being as consistent as the PS4's 1080p?
Edit: you snuck in the edit.
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SonGoku
Member
Devs developing and optimizing around ps5/snek hw changes everything
They can always drop resolution to 1400p/1800p or use dynamic rez if need be.
Stuart360
Member
Yeah but you just said it yourself, Cerny says you need 8tf just to run PS4 games at 4k, which means PS5 could run PS4 games at 4k with an extra 4-5tf to play with. So like i said, GOW at 4k/60, or a bit better looking GOW at 4k/30 is what we will get.
Stuart360
Member
Do the math yourself then, its not rocket science.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
And it should go beyond the extra 4tf.
Next gen systems will have much better cpus and faster load times (if true), So it should do even more than taking an existing Xbox One or PS4 and just bumping up the gpu.
SonGoku
Member
Not doubting but can you post comparison numbers for future reference
and from the looks of it insanely faster memory
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LuvOfThaGame
Banned
7.0108695652X
bitbydeath
Member
Yeah, I did the wrong figure at first.
4TF additional power is still a lot though.
AMD cards geometry and textures scale extremely well with resolution. They scale poorly with rasterization and post fx. This means that you will see higher geometry (which honestly I don't think will be very appreciated), much better textures (like RDR2 difference between X and One on steroids), but not much higher frame rate or AA. The AA part is fine since 4k makes things a little smoother thankfully
SonGoku
Member
Especially considering they will optimize around the new hw unlike X/pro
and they can always use dynamic resolution to push things further
Stuart360
Member
That 4tf combined with a better cpu will give GOW at 4k/60, Horizon at 4k/60, slightly better looking versions at 4k/30, like i said.
This is just the price of 4k, and people need to accept that before all the doom and gloom starts when we start actually seeing next gen games.
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SonGoku
Member
Nah, you are underestimating what can be done when games are developed from the ground up to take advantage of 13TF hw, if they target 30 fps the difference will be night and day
Not to mention they can use dynamic rez.
I meant the jump from previous gens since the poster i quoted thought they were 5x
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Stuart360
Member
Oh for sure most games will be 30fps. I was just using GOW and Horizon at 4k/60 as a reference to what the hardware could do with current PS4 games, i'm not saying we will get 4k/60 versions of those games. The fact of the matter is we are talking 'real world' performence of about 2 and a bit times PS4 when you take 4k into account. Games will look good, but they will NOT be anything like a jump people are expecting. There will be plenty of games next gen, by lesser studios, that look like PS4 games at 4k.
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bitbydeath
Member
Yeah, we do need to account for the total package like what can be done with the SSD speeding up the world around you will have a large impact on games as well.
Racing games in VR would be quite impressive, now with less vomiting!
thelastword
Banned
It's all in the link I gave......
I want to believe but there are so many uncertainties with HBM3 being ready on time plus everything seems to be pointing towards GDDR6 with navi supporting it.
A couple of questions:
- What bandwidth can this cheap HBM3 with organic interposed offer on a 24GB setup?
- Can it even reach 24GB while staying at reasonable console prices?
- What if its not ready for mass production in time?
Here's one more...
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/08/hbm3-details-price-bandwidth/
It will be low power, affordable and it will be ready.....The link above was penned since 2016, it was being worked on way before that......Samsung, Hynix are working on it and AMD has a product pegged with next gen memory in 2020....
SonGoku
Member
Ok so take horizon for example. The game was ported to Pro not designed around it
So say Horizon 2 targets 1800p at 30 fps developed from the ground up around 13TF hardware, the difference would be night and day not "slightly better looking versions".
Looking at specs:
- 3x GPU jump from PS4 Pro
- Developed around it vs Ported
- Massive CPU jump
- 4x the memory
- Much higher bandwidth
- GPU Arch improvements that give it better performance per flop compared to PS4
- Customizations and RT hw
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Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
Yeah if all these rumoured specs are true, $399 is out the window unless Sony wants to take a massive hit on each unit. Which I doubt.
Stuart360
Member
I edited that post because i hadn't finished and i clicked reply by mistake lol. But again you just said it yourself, the Pro, with double the gpu power, could only take a 1080p/30 PS4 game upto 1800/30, and thats a Sony first party game. Just think about the power needed to push that Pro version from 1800p/30 to 4k/60, get it?, and thats just a PS4 game.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Whether it's PS5 or Anaconda, it's not like game makers are going to ditch PS4 or XBox One. The new systems will surely be BC.
So isn't the usual argument that if a game has to run on the lowest denominator system, then the latest version will never get its full potential?
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bitbydeath
Member
So maybe 6-7TF to reach 4K and frame rate if bothered with (it probably wouldn’t be) would come out of the CPU.
That’d still leave 5-6TF worth of improvements. 7-8TF if hardware is greater than 12TF.
Stuart360
Member
Framerate is both gpu and cpu though, and when taking into account the 4k resolution, those spare 4-5tf will be eaten up fast. Like i said, there will be next gen games, from lesser studios, that look like PS4 games at 4k. Sony and its talented devs will produce better results like a better looking GOW or Horizon at 4k. Thats all we can expect though. Now if next gen was targeting 1080p, the results really could be something special with a 12+tf machine, but if the 6tf OneX targets 4k, 12+tf next gen consoles certainly will be.
SonGoku
Member
Doesnt say anyrhing about cheap HBM capacity (number of stacks)
Can somebody explain this to me, im confused
If each memory die is 2GB then how come 8 dies stacked add up to 64GB? wouldn't that be 16GB?
juliotendo
Member
Those specs are beefy but at the end of the day the specs were beefy on launch PS4 and Xbox One too — but remember how long it took to get developers to truly use the specs? Around 2 years... 2015 was when both platforms started pushing their true weight.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I remember differently. When XBox One and PS4 got released, people were already picking it part as Jaguar CPUs, low end gpus and TF compared to PCs. PS4 did better at "mid-range PC" I think. Xbox One was worse.
But your are right in devs usage. It always takes a few years to get going. I'd ballpark it takes to year 3 to see the first truly awesome games. Years 1 and 2 are usually up-ports.
SonGoku
Member
Horizon/GOW was designed around PS4 HW it was merely ported to Pro. There's a big difference between a port and a game designed from the ground up to take advantage of new hardware
Also what's stopping them from making Horizon2 1800p at 30fps (or any dynamic resolution combination)
Im not expecting 4k at 60fps, devs will stick to 30 fps as they've always done and use dynamic resolution when needed
SonGoku
Member
True but Killzone and Second Son were very impressive for its time, Ryze and the order too.
BF4 was not possible on the same scale on PS360
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I don’t think you’d be running into that same issue this time around since they will both be on the same architecture.
I think we’re going to be mighty impressed with the launch title graphics in comparison.
Of course they will get better over time as usual as the SDK, tools, and new rendering pipes mature, but I have a feeling we are in for a wow factor treat when revealed.
SonGoku
Member
So same as last gen then? They were quick to drop PS360 a year after the gen started.
Its 3x the pro
You are also not taking into account new arch efficiencies that make a GPU punch above its weight compared to previous architecture, NextGen arch customizations, FP16 (RPM) as base hardware means devs can develop around it to take advantage of it which is an extra 15 to 30% added performance depending of the scenario.
Stuff like this:
AMD patent could bring Nvidia’s variable rate shading to Navi and next-gen consoles
Nvidia introduced the feature to Turing late last year, but AMD looks like it's bringing VRS to its own mainstream GPUs
www.pcgamesn.com
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Smiles and Cries
Member
I was thinking of jumping ship from my PS4 to an Xbox next time because it would be good with my Switch
but hmmm might have to get both ...sigh
this is going to be expensive
but hmmm might have to get both ...sigh
this is going to be expensive
TechS3ek
Neo Member
i genuinely hope if they are planning to adopt Ray Tracing as the main feature for next gen visuals, they better be having a separate built in hardware for that otherwise half of PS5's power will be directly sucked by Ray tracing.. where we could easily enjoy 4K @60fps without Raytracing for all games considering the rumoured spec.
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SoulChamber
Member
That'll be very costly for most 3rd party publishers, especially smaller ones.
Most games are gonna be cross-gen'd for like 3 to 3 & a half years tops with PS4 & Xbox One in mind. It'll be that way until there's a significant install base to help offset development costs.
And don't expect price drops to happen for it for a long while. Sony needs all the profit that they can get.
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