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[GHG]

None of those games sold. The Last Guardian was a ps3 game and was mostly forgotten by everybody. All of the other games you mentioned play more like movies and we've had those games before. It is literally what people that don't play videogames will play. Gravity Rush isn't for everybody but I guess it is an ok game and not safe? (if you aren't into Japanese games which isn't so niche anymore)

GT was a fucking masterpiece a few generations ago so I don't know why you'd bring that up when trying to prove there are better games now. Or GoW.


You think scores matter? Have you SEEN a modern review? Or the current state of videogame reviewers and similar sites?

He isn't wrong, while I enjoyed quite a few games this gen it has been pretty stale outside your random JPN game.

I think you are misunderstanding my point, this isn't about whether games are successful or not, the games listed serve as a counterpoint to the notion that all Sony does is pump out "safe" games. It's simply untrue. The more popular games/franchises get all the press but there's a lot of other games they produce and they flesh out the portfolio and provide breadth. Of the games listed there are very few third party publishers pumping out games like those and the perseverance to continue to publish games like that in today's climate should be applauded.

GT was an example of a risk being taken - taking a tent pole franchise and doing something entirely different with it. Whether you like it or hate it is a matter of taste but it went in a direction that no other console focused racing game had done previously. It's basically a heavily sanitised version of iRacing.

When I say "highly rated", it's not just review scores. Games like GoW and Uncharted don't get as successful as they have been by review scores alone.

 

[Outrunner]

Also, people will be more open and less reluctant to spend money on MTX if they didn't have to pay for the game but got it as part of a cheap subscription service.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

When I say "highly rated", it's not just review scores. Games like GoW and Uncharted don't get as successful as they have been by review scores alone.

You remember what I said in my first post? Gaming is normal/mainstream now. Market that and add an exclusive sticker to something that lets you kill things and it will sell.

 

[GHG]

You remember what I said in my first post? Gaming is normal/mainstream now. Market that and add an exclusive sticker to something that lets you kill things and it will sell.

Yep that's true... As long as the game is also at least reasonably high quality. You can't fault a publisher who creates games that appeal to the masses while also encouraging creativity outside of the core money makers.

There are still plenty high quality experiences to be had outside of the mainstream, you've just got to cut through the chatter to find them. Thankfully some publishers are still willing to fund and publish games that don't necessarily appeal to the mainstream while further afield the indie scene is as strong as ever.

 

[Xenon]

Itt people forget how mobile, moba, and morpgs affected the industry. The biggest damage this industry has been done by companies trying to hook up a treadmill directly to your wallet. In this aspect Jim is always ignored what other companies have gone and blamed it on Microsoft. Feeding fanboys as well as playing off of social issues has been his bread and butter. This Thread is definitely the feast.

 

[Poop!]

Looks at Sony owned studio first party games for the PS1.... oh wait.

 

[YoungPokeMonster]

I don't understand. Msoft makes game available for $9.99 a month and you can play their latest games for 1 week and then cancel, yet Msoft made gaming bad.

They put out true backwards compatibility where old games actually run better, for free, yet Msoft made gaming bad.

They opened up their games to Steam and shut down Epic Games Store, yet Msoft made gaming bad.

They dedicated constant updates to Halo 5 including free maps but made one PvE mode kinda P2W, yet Msoft made gaming bad.

They brought about cross play support to 1st party titles, including Minecraft, and are bringing 1st party titles to Nintendo Switch, yet Msoft made gaming bad.

I feel like, at this point, people dunking on them are just lazy. The fight is elsewhere, not with Msoft.

 

[cryptoadam]

Ill play this game. Lets take a long view and apply the butterfly effect.

MS comes into the console biz and essentially releases a PC. They then introduce XBOX LIVE, charging for online play.

MS makes money and sells a lot of Live Subs. So now all of a sudden there is a push for online play, paid for via subscription. Nintendo and Sony see how much these subs bring in and axe their free online play and start charging. Now online subs are a big business, a guranteed revenue for almost doing nothing (aside from maintaing the insfrastructure). Of course to keep those subs going you need online content. So console games are being pushed more and more towards online. If all games have online modes well that incentivizes gamers to pay for a sub.

Now that paying for online is normalized and gamers prefer online games lets introduce the next way to monatize this. Lets add in DLC. So from the outgrowth of paid subs and online gaming we get MTX.

So in a round about way you can say its true. Now before anyone attacks me just playing devils advocate. All of this probably would of happened at some point without MS. But it can't be denied that MS introduced paid subs to the console space, which opened up the doors for this MTX hell we live in. Mobile gaming played a very big role as well so lets not leave them out. But MS opened the door. I am sure Sony or Nintendo would of done the same at some point, but we don't live in that alternate reality.

 

[mckmas8808]

It behooves first party publishers to provide top quality productions that make their consoles worth buying. Nintendo and Sony have both produced amazing games to sell us on the PS4 and Switch. Microsoft, however, is different. Microsoft has decided to act no better than a grasping third party "AAA" publisher. Even worse, it set the tone of a generation and contributed - perhaps more than any other company - to the nasty normalization of excessive monetization. It's Microsoft's fault that videogames are bad.

thelastword thoughts?

But what if I don't think video games are bad?

 

[Rien]

But what if I don't think video games are bad?

Then your WRONG!

 

[*Nightwing]

I kinda agree (completely agree with the points presented just not on conclusions), but I still am bitter and bring the divergent point back to making day 1 patches becoming the norm instead of pushing back broken games release dates that are not ready to ship. Once this can of worms was opened, and the industry saw we as consumers were OK with it, console gaming adopted PC gaming's "best effort" level of quality of experience, instead of what had been the norm on consoles of it having to work 100% as described and now we have microtransactions and the whole lot. And I agree MS is the biggest proponent in making this happen, but believe the blame is solely on us as consumers by not stopping it by voting with our wallets.

 

[Kusanagi2086]

He's sucking on the EA and Activition dick. To think I used to listen to this moron. Critical thinking opened my eyes to the bullshit he's spewing. I just wish I could do it to roll in money.

What the fuck are you on about he has in fact made several videos on EA and Activision detailing their shitty practices, including a long video on Bobby Kotick (activision CEO) and what a royal douchebag he is.

So what you are claiming here is not true

EDIT: Quite a few in this thread are assuming what he is saying without watching the video, which only makes you seem moronic maybe we can discuss his points instead of having people here just shitting on him before actually watching the video.

 

[Petrae]

Microsoft may have played a part in getting the ball of shit rolling, but there’s plenty of blame to go around— especially in the pay-to-play-online department. Sony and eventually Nintendo (after Iwata’s passing) both gleefully bought into the concept and forced it upon their customers. All three platform-holders should be constantly and heavily criticized for it, but that doesn’t happen because it’s the new standard.

There’s a fair point (with supporting evidence supplied by Jim) about Microsoft’s first-party efforts and their aggressive monetization. Everything about the XBO early on was wrong, from the messaging to the monetization, and Microsoft has occasionally tried to reverse the damage this caused... but the dearth of quality first-party games in general hasn’t helped.

Jim’s obviously got some anti-MS sentiment, which is fine. It’s just his take. I don’t agree with everything he’s said, but I credit him for at least supplying some substance behind what he presented.

I kinda agree (completely agree with the points presented just not on conclusions), but I still am bitter and bring the divergent point back to making day 1 patches becoming the norm instead of pushing back broken games release dates that are not ready to ship. Once this can of worms was opened, and the industry saw we as consumers were OK with it, console gaming adopted PC gaming's "best effort" level of quality of experience, instead of what had been the norm on consoles of it having to work 100% as described and now we have microtransactions and the whole lot. And I agree MS is the biggest proponent in making this happen, but believe the blame is solely on us as consumers by not stopping it by voting with our wallets.

When friends ask me why this is my final console generation, the foisting of huge-ass Day One patches— along with the time required to install a game from disc to hard drive— is a big reason why. Having to wait 30-60+ minutes to play a game that I just bought because of these steps is always fucking infuriating. Console gaming basically became PC gaming, with patches and crashes and other shit that always kept me away from the latter.

Console gaming used to be so simple and so (relatively) immediate, and that’s why I loved it. Now it’s constantly a waiting game, or a game of managing your available storage space, or worrying that getting knocked offline (especially in the case of the Xbox One) may affect what games you can play... and I’m tired of it. I won’t fork over $500 to do this shit again next gen. I’m cashing out.

 

[Foamy]

He must have purchased Crackdown 3.

 

[thelastword]

Very good video by Jim here, Truth+Hilarity combined...…..

Pretty much, all he said is on point......Coalition looking for praise for not putting Microtransaction in their game, when the current system is just as tiring and convoluted...The industry wholeheartedly shitted on Microtransactions, especially the way MS implemented it......You buy a game for $60 and it feels like a $20 dollar game, where the good stuff, even features is hidden behind a pay to Upgrade, pay to be viable, pay so this becomes easier...…Then they leave you feeling like a second class citizen by paying for a barebones game for $60 where they make grinding a chore.......They had this implemented in all their games, Halo 5, Forza 5, Gears 4, Forza 7.......And yet, do you know how much the ultimate versions of these games cost $99.99 and up.....

MS said they made more money in Halo 5's multiplayer Microtransactions, than prior games DLC's...…..Anyone thinking MS is a good guy and just want to give you Gears 5 to enjoy for a $1 can't see the forest for the trees...…

The bit on Super Lucky's Tale, Crimson Dragon and Lococyle with it's live action cutscenes were hilarious.....Sometimes you have to enjoy the humor in the truth....

 

[mckmas8808]

I kinda agree (completely agree with the points presented just not on conclusions), but I still am bitter and bring the divergent point back to making day 1 patches becoming the norm instead of pushing back broken games release dates that are not ready to ship. Once this can of worms was opened, and the industry saw we as consumers were OK with it, console gaming adopted PC gaming's "best effort" level of quality of experience, instead of what had been the norm on consoles of it having to work 100% as described and now we have microtransactions and the whole lot. And I agree MS is the biggest proponent in making this happen, but believe the blame is solely on us as consumers by not stopping it by voting with our wallets.

I'd rather have a day one patch, instead of waiting an additional 6 months for the game to launch. And I think most people would agree with me.

 

[Kacho]

But what if I don't think video games are bad?

Ok, this is epic.

 

[oagboghi2]

He isn’t wrong.

MS has embraced these monetization schemes far more than Nintendo/Sony have

 

[joe_zazen]

Genuine question, why does Jim Sterling get off being negative all the time?

Shit childhood in a poverty stricken & gutted part of UK l am guessing.

 

[ROMhack]

Shit childhood in a poverty stricken & gutted part of UK l am guessing.

Oh damn, wasn't aware of that.

 

[JLB]

Yeah, it's easy to be immersed when people are passionate. I don't like JS much but it's definitely something that works in his favour.

Indeed. I disagree almost always with him, but he is a great storyteller. Kudos for him, thats a quite valuable skill.

 

[Neff]

Just noticed resetera locked the thread. I do wonder just how much influence MS PR has over there.

Resetera struggles with heated debates, so it tries to avoid them. It struggles with debates in general, actually, unless the majority opinion is Era-approved.

 

[petran79]

They have ruined Windows gaming. Windows 95 had Internet Explorer integrated into the OS and messed the system. 25 years passed and they still havent learned, doing the same things with Windows Store and Gamepass.
Had they made any external client even like Ubisoft and Origin, things would be much better.

 

[zeorhymer]

he has in fact made several videos on EA and Activision detailing their shitty practices

That's the issue. He's already said that other publishers are the death of video games. I don't care to click on his bait for views. I've watched his echo chamber and it's the same thing over and over again. Publishers are bad, they steal your money, vote with your wallet, yada yada. His points have been "discussed" multiple times and it's the same thing. Businesses are in the business to make money. Right now, he's basically the guy who yells at kids to get off his lawn.

 

[joe_zazen]

M

Resetera struggles with heated debates, so it tries to avoid them. It struggles with debates in general, actually, unless the majority opinion is Era-approved.

Are they open with the ownership and/or revenue structure? It seems like a couple hundred thousand in ‘investment’ would be decent money spent by MS or whoever. I mean, if i was MS, i’d want my message dominating at places like that and reddit.

 

[Azelover]

MS helped bring this whole microtransaction idea to fruition, but I don't think they deserve to be singled out for the whole phenomenon.

Apple is more guilty imo, the "gacha" culture really took off after we got the App Store. But anyway, I only care about how to solve the problem at this stage. We let it happen, too. The phenomenon wouldn't exist if people didn't agree by spending their money on it.

 

[joe_zazen]

That's the issue. He's already said that other publishers are the death of video games. I don't care to click on his bait for views. I've watched his echo chamber and it's the same thing over and over again. Publishers are bad, they steal your money, vote with your wallet, yada yada. His points have been "discussed" multiple times and it's the same thing. Businesses are in the business to make money. Right now, he's basically the guy who yells at kids to get off his lawn.

Corporations are basically immortal psychopaths, so they do tend to ruin things like democracy longterm. The same probably holds true wrt videogames.

 

[zeorhymer]

Corporations are basically immortal psychopaths, so they do tend to ruin things like democracy longterm. The same probably holds true wrt videogames.

But I'm dependent on these psychopaths for my internet and Googles and vidya games.

 

[JoeyWestSide]

The belief that publishers have much more control in games than is reality is too damn high. Even platinum was like, canceling Scalebound was more of our fault than MS's. And for the past, what, 2 years now they've been open about supporting the game that devs want to make. Gotta start blaming the devs for both the good and bad, not just the good and blaming publishers for the bad. Marketing for sekiro? Overall good. Marketing for fallout? Pretty terrible. Credit and blame where its due.

 

[ruvikx]

Everyone is talking about microtransactions, online paywall & all the tralalala commonly associated with the "evils" of modern gaming. But here's the biggest one from my chair here: resolution bump with the PlayStation Pro/One X which gave devs an easy antialiasing solution + lazy visual upgrade & sells 4k TV's because gamers want "muh bestest version of the game". Meanwhile the base consoles were given a shorter shelf-life & shittier unoptimized versions of the biggest games, for the first time ever.

Sony did that first. Xbox followed in their footsteps with the X. Any talk of 60 fps as mandatory? No way, just "increase that resolution because we want 4k TV's to sell more". When I'm looking at a video game running at 20/30 fps on a so-called "Pro" console (i.e. supposedly an improvement) with a resolution increase designed solely to push 4k TV sales, I feel inclined to tell the industry to go fuck itself.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

They have ruined Windows gaming. Windows 95 had Internet Explorer integrated into the OS and messed the system.

hah not much to ruin. I remember playing DOOM and it running fantastic in DOS, and when Windows 95 came out, it was touting all this gamer friendly stuff, and it couldn't run that game for shit. i think until the late 90s the only games I ever played on Windows were interactive CD-ROMs like the Monty Python thing that was basically a crappy version of what eventually would be known as a website.

 

[Bryank75]

What I always have in the backof my head is that if 360 was never a thing PS3 would have been far more like PS2. They would have kept backwards compatibility because they wouldn't have had that pressure to compete...

 

[Neff]

Are they open with the ownership and/or revenue structure? It seems like a couple hundred thousand in ‘investment’ would be decent money spent by MS or whoever. I mean, if i was MS, i’d want my message dominating at places like that and reddit.

I doubt Era is a MS utopia any more than GAF has ever been a PlayStation stronghold, despite it being accused of exactly that many times over the years.

I didn't get the impression that Era was particularly more inclined towards Xbox than other platforms, and I do remember MS getting their share of heat when deserved.

Both forums have had their dedicated console warriors, maybe some with dubious/professional intent, but the idea that either ever received direct funding of any kind from one of the big three honestly never crossed my mind.

Not saying it couldn't happen, but still. If such sponsorship ever did happen, and come out publicly, it would look very, very bad for both parties.

 

[Nikana]

Slow news week eh Jim.

 

[joe_zazen]

But I'm dependent on these psychopaths for my internet and Googles and vidya games.

Me too.

I doubt Era is a MS utopia any more than GAF has ever been a PlayStation stronghold, despite it being accused of exactly that many times over the years.

I didn't get the impression that Era was particularly more inclined towards Xbox than other platforms, and I do remember MS getting their share of heat when deserved.

Both forums have had their dedicated console warriors, maybe some with dubious/professional intent, but the idea that either ever received direct funding of any kind from one of the big three honestly never crossed my mind.

Not saying it couldn't happen, but still. If such sponsorship ever did happen, and come out publicly, it would look very, very bad for both parties.

Social marketing, fwi hear, is always done through external agencies. You’ll never get direct connections now like in the good old days when MIcrosoft was caught sending letters from dead people to congress decrying the unfiar DoJ monopoly harassment.

 

[bigDdestruction]

MS charging for online I'll never forgive. We as gamers should've nipped it in the bud the second it started to happen but here we are today with everyone wanting a piece of the pie.

 

[Boss Mog]

Actually Jim, it's the fault of mentally ill degenerates such as yourself.

 

[bobone]

Is Gaf ever going to stop giving this man views and lip service.

His content is trash.

Opinions can be wrong people.

 

[Shai-Tan]

MS helped bring this whole microtransaction idea to fruition, but I don't think they deserve to be singled out for the whole phenomenon.

Apple is more guilty imo, the "gacha" culture really took off after we got the App Store. But anyway, I only care about how to solve the problem at this stage. We let it happen, too. The phenomenon wouldn't exist if people didn't agree by spending their money on it.

yeah the history of this started in mobile. Even before that I was playing browser games that employ similar manipulations. If I would single out anyone in consoles it’s EA with that All Madden ALL FIFA shit in a multiplayer game

 

[Stefan.North]

It's Japans fault XB360 didn't sell over 100mil units.

It's Phillips fault Sony even became console manufacturer.

It's Capcom's fault Dead Phoenix, instead of becoming new Star Fox, became... dead.

It's Knuckles fault they ever made Shadow the Hedgehog.

It's my grandma's fault Wii Sports became a thing.

 

[thelastword]

It's the lies people tell themselves to feel better. The "cinematic game" meme is nothing more than that. If Gears 5 was a PS exclusive, people would call it a cinematic walking simulator because at some points you have to walk, it has cut scenes and it's third person over-the-shoulder.

I don't know, but it seemed that there was more cutscnes and slow walking sections in Gears 5 than Sony's games...….The beginning of the game, I thought things would never get rolling...….Things got underway in LOU much much faster than in Gears 5......

Is Gaf ever going to stop giving this man views and lip service.

His content is trash.

Opinions can be wrong people.

Absolutely, just as your opinion of him can be wrong...…..I usually appreciate the opinions of people who can articulate the point they're trying to make.....I think Jim was pretty adept at his attempt......Kudos to Jim.....

 

[joe_zazen]

It's Japans fault XB360 didn't sell over 100mil units.

It's Phillips fault Sony even became console manufacturer.

It's Capcom's fault Dead Phoenix, instead of becoming new Star Fox, became... dead.

It's Knuckles fault they ever made Shadow the Hedgehog.

It's my grandma's fault Wii Sports became a thing.

Who fucked up the bumper on my Forester?

 

[Pejo]

Is Gaf ever going to stop giving this man views and lip service.

His content is trash.

Opinions can be wrong people.

Which of his arguments exactly do you have a problem with?

 

[Explosive Zombie]

It's interesting how much of this thread is clearly from people who didn't watch the video. And on top of that I even saw someone claim Jim does this stuff for Youtube views, even though his Youtube channel isn't monetized and he survives on Patreon... le sigh.

I think the title is a bit clickbait but I feel like it's also hard to deny Microsoft didn't lead the charge in getting gamers to shill more cash for their games. At the very least in the console market this is true and since he's comparing them to Sony and Nintendo it's hard to deny his argument isn't based in the console market. We're well aware Sony and Nintendo have exclusive prestige titles that don't feature predatory microtransactions and both have excelled at adding free content to such games post release. They both realize their games sell their consoles whereas Microsoft isn't trying to sell consoles any more, they're now trying to sell you a gamepass subscription and those microtransactions are where they hope to make up the difference.

Think about it this way, if someone asks why you're buying a Switch or PS4 the answer is simple "I want to play Breath of the Wild, Bloodborne, Mario Odyssey, God of War, etc." with an Xbox One X the second you name a single exclusive the question becomes "why not take your 4-500 dollars and spend it on a new video card for your PC?"

 

[Kusanagi2086]

That's the issue. He's already said that other publishers are the death of video games. I don't care to click on his bait for views. I've watched his echo chamber and it's the same thing over and over again. Publishers are bad, they steal your money, vote with your wallet, yada yada. His points have been "discussed" multiple times and it's the same thing. Businesses are in the business to make money. Right now, he's basically the guy who yells at kids to get off his lawn.

Yes businesses want to make money of course they are but he was pointing out why squeezing every last dollar out of your customers with microtransactions and shitty business practices will eventually drive people away.

And just take a look at the state of the industry it's a fucking mess right now or have you been living under a rock these last couple of years, just this week Bethesda was caught doing more shady shit with Fallout 76.

Do you really support this shit ? do you wanna see more these things happening ?

 

[Kusanagi2086]

I'd rather have a day one patch, instead of waiting an additional 6 months for the game to launch. And I think most people would agree with me.

I don't I rather have developers take their time making their games the best they can be and one of the main issues with several releases these last couple of years are publishers rushing games out.

So we get games that are half broken with a fix later approach I don't want this shit you are literally arguing for developers to rush their games out the door, in a broken state christ almighty the stupidity with this argument boggles the mind.

If CDPR wants to delay Cyberpunk 2077 for sixth months for additional polish I am all for it.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

The industry is totes in a bad state, think about how Shadowkeep for Destiny 2 is the first time EVER Bungie was able to delay a piece of Destiny content because it wasn't ready. Under Activision nothing could ever be delayed, all deadlines had to be met, this is the same reason BLOPS IIII title makes no sense, each I was meant to represent a pillar of the gameplay, but there's 3 modes, not 4! Because we can't delay the game if the campaign runs into trouble! Bungie was big enough to break free of Activision and survive on their own, but most companies aren't, Microsoft, EA, Activision and so on are responsible for obscene developer graveyards due to their practices and they're not failing due to their actions, either, there is no karmic retribution for how much they suck the life out of the gaming industry because there's always someone smaller than them who can take the fall.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Which of his arguments exactly do you have a problem with?

I think it's the general pattern of being provocative going all the way back to his reviews in Destructoid. I don't have that much of a problem with his content but it does share with other YouTube punditry a style over substance that has a lot in common with cable news, talk radio; ie staking out a bold position, playing to an audience with insufficient research behind it

That said I don't want to single him out. The YouTube media complex is built on it.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I think it's the general pattern of being provocative going all the way back to his reviews in Destructoid. I don't have that much of a problem with his content but it does share with other YouTube punditry a style over substance that has a lot in common with cable news, talk radio; ie staking out a bold position, playing to an audience with insufficient research behind it

That said I don't want to single him out. The YouTube media complex is built on it.

He's provocative but then backs up his claims in his videos, so I'm not seeing a lack of substance. It's weird because all of Youtube is titled provocatively the difference between Jim and everyone else is he isn't actually surviving on clicks and his backing for being so provocative is more compelling. I say all this as someone who's gotten pissed at the guy easily because I believe some of his agendas cloud his mind, but still it's true.

 

[Tsukumo]

Cleanprince, downward thrust level of clickbait. Oh, Jimmy.