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[Rusco Da Vino]

Who at epic is saying this demo would not be possible on series x?

Tim Sweeney, CEO & Founder of Epic Games. He said this demo is not possible without Sony hardware. Sure you can do the deductions for yourself.

Read it here

“It’s also a lot of polygons being loaded every frame as you walk around through the environment and this sort of detail you don’t see in the world would absolutely not be possible at any scale without these breakthroughs that Sony’s made.”

Face the reality, and stop your concern trolling that you are pushing since yesterday. Give it a break.

 

[BadBreathOfTheWild]

Your post started out really well. Too bad the last paragraph had to show your preferences. The engine here is amazingly innovative, both for visual fidelity as for developers. The fact at this point is, that we do not know how it runs on the XSX. To attribute this achievement solely to the PS5 is premature.

And if you can't see the obvious partnership between Epic and Sony here, I don't know what to tell you. Epic is trying to make their own engine look as awesome as possible so that it gets wide adoption. Sony is trying to make the PS5 look as powerful as possible, so they sell more consoles and games.
If say Crytek would partner up with Microsoft and Xbox, the same thing would happen. Talk about the velocity architecture, the breakthroughs that MS made, advantages over PC, all of those would be brought to the forefront.

It's not that they are lying. They are using words in a way the emotionally hype up the masses. Look how many people think that billions of triangles are being rendered in the demo, while in reality it's around 30 million. People latch onto big numbers and big words without understanding, and then the false understanding spreads around, creating unrealistic hype. And that ultimately sells.

I have zero interest whatsoever in console wars, petty tribalism and weird forum politics. There’s no hidden implication behind anything I’ve said. I’m buying both and I hope Microsoft make in roads this generation so that they stick around and keep the competition up.
If you think what I’ve said somehow slights XBX or unduly praises PS5, that says more about you and what you’re sensitive to, for whatever reasons.

I also don’t care about how “the masses” misunderstand or misinterpret anything. Both Road to PS5 and this UE5 demo were technical presentations, and they were both very clear in what they were saying for anyone paying attention.

You’re writing like a politician. I care about what those in the industry say, now about what or how other people think. That’s weird and doesn’t interest me.

 

[Uzupedro]

Yeah, you are not wrong, but there was a clear use of clever words to make us think it would be a bigger game or studio, it is innocence to think about their goodwill, even more considering the timing, it was on the same day as the inside xbox. And I'm also excited about the game, it's just boring to think that it could be something more exciting in the magazine itself.
And on the subject of OPM, yes, I also expect something similar.

To be fair:
1, Edge didn't really hype it up and in fact the clue 'the next generation rises' is literally correct as the editor said (Ascent = rise)
2, I have a soft spot for isometric games from the 16-bit era and Ascent looks good.
I expect PSM's OPM's hands-on with PS5 games will also be from smaller devs and Indies.

 

[BadBurger]

Tim Sweeney, CEO & Founder of Epic Games. He said this demo is not possible without Sony hardware. Sure you can do the deductions for yourself.

Read it here


Face the reality, and stop your concern trolling that you are pushing since yesterday. Give it a break.

I wonder what was special about the PS5 hardware. Maybe the throughput of the SSD? Doesn't it also have more memory throughput or bandwidth or whatever?

 

[Mod of War]

I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:



You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up.

Next time drop us a line before posting this. Check your DMs.

 

[Insane Metal]

Next time drop us a line before posting this. Check your DMs.

Done! Sorry I didn't talk to you first.

 

[Neo Blaster]

GG boys

Am I reading it correctly? Is Dictator, a master race warrior and Discord gang member, saying resolution doesn't matter anymore?

Oh, boy, that UE5 demo is still delivering.

 

[Mod of War]

Done! Sorry I didn't talk to you first.

No worries, information has been verified.

 

[Neo Blaster]

No reasoning. Sometimes things are just different

Jesus, easy on that spin, you're almost turning inside out.

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

I wonder what was special about the PS5 hardware. Maybe the throughput of the SSD? Doesn't it also have more memory throughput or bandwidth or whatever?

SlimySnake explained it very well here

Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

And Microsoft to make Software (with its achievements and failures). Yet MSFT software for Visual Studio is much worse than Sony (ICE) one. For console development. Think about it.

www.neogaf.com

 

[Fake]

Insane Metal almost had a heart attack after Mod of War ask for PM.

 

[icerock]

Am I reading it correctly? Is Dictator, a master race warrior and Discord gang member, saying resolution doesn't matter anymore?

Yes he is saying that, this is directly a quote from him from the DF article. Avoid the 'negative reaction' bit thrown in there lol

Meanwhile, the dynamic resolution with a modal 1440p pixel count has also drawn some negative reaction. We have access to 20 uncompressed grabs from the trailer: they defy traditional pixel counting techniques. When the overall presentation looks this good, this detailed, with solid temporal stability (ie, no flicker or shimmer frame to frame), resolution becomes less important - the continuation of a trend we've seen since the arrival of the mid-generation console refreshes. As we said almost two years ago now, next-gen shouldn't be about 'true 4K', the game has moved on and put it frankly - GPU resources are better spent elsewhere.

Will be interesting to see how they compare next-gen multi-platform games, numbers like resolution, frames, most people can understand. But, when you have to pause a frame and compare it to a native 4K image produced on a PC by zooming in, then it's only strengthening the case for consoles.

 

[Neo Blaster]

The implication by some gamers and journalists that Sony and Cerny have gone to the effort and expense of making PS5’s IO so much faster than what has ever been (in the context of throughput and latency in the entire storage to GPU cache pipeline) for no tangible benefit over a cheap conventional setup, and without enabling them to do anything new or significant is utter lunacy and staggeringly arrogant ignorance when a game engine architect and engineers from a platform agnostic highly successful technology company is literally telling you it is vital to what they have demonstrated, and have actually gone out and spent years developing to demonstrate it.
Those people are the ones that should be casually dismissed. They are not talking from any position of authority. They can only see things through the lens of how things have always been done. They’re journalists and not technology innovators for a reason.

Remember: Epic could have used XSX or PC, but instead they used PS5 to show the demo. That's certainly telling...

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Question about smart delivery. If there is no time limit:

- This kind of guarantees that next game games will cost exactly the same as current gen games right?

Otherwise what's stopping me from buying the "cheaper version" and unlocking the more expensive version for free??

- would that then also mean that price reductions for games will be done at the same rate and time for Xbox games across both gens?

Otherwise again, I can just find the cheaper copy that has a bigger discount and get the more expensive copy free.

I could see games beyond 1 disk to be like $5-10 more than now, the rest should be $60, I guess.

I'm not a 3D artist, but that to me sounds off by several orders of magnitude, especially when you consider models are also compressed in the SSD.

You should at minimum need 3 floating point numbers per vertex. I found for example in Maya models each of those floating points are 4 bytes, so in total 1 vertex costs 12 bytes.

Then you need to map faces (triangles) to the vertices, which should cost in the region of 6 bytes each as far as I could find.

Since the overwhelming majority of triangles reuse the same vertices, we might be talking about perhaps 1.5 billion vertices for a 1 billion-triangles model, or even closer to the number of triangles (is there a formula to generalize it)?

So you should have (1B x 6) + (1.5B x 12) = 6B + 18B = about 24B bytes, or 24GB

Again, this is all uncompressed. Tools like Draco and Open3GDC can easily reduce model sizes by a factor of 30-50, so we would really be talking about 800MB.

Wonderfully explained, thank you!

How so? Didn’t he just say the PS5 ssd is not an advancement, just different?

Btw NX gamer just published his video on the demo. I bet you he did not ignore the part the ssd plays in streaming all that complex geometry so quickly. Will watch soon.

Edit: and here it is....lunacy that DF didn’t cover the ssd aspect and how it works with the engine. I mean Sweeney and co went on and on about how pivotal it is to all this. Lol, it’s conspiratorial but it’s as if there is a concerted effort to take focus off the ssd, I mean seriously.

Amazing video there, and yes, they've tried so hard (DF) to skip the most critical part, SSD + i/o.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Will be interesting to see how they compare next-gen multi-platform games, numbers like resolution, frames, most people can understand. But, when you have to pause a frame and compare it to a native 4K image produced on a PC by zooming in, then it's only strengthening the case for consoles.

On a high end PC you will be able to have higher framerates and take effects implementations to their limits. You can always do more there, if you have the configuration needed.

But it will be interesting to see how XSX and PS5 perform relative to each other when implementing U5 tech. What will be the give and takes, we will have to wait to know.

 

[Ptarmiganx2]

That Ghost thing was awful. Another open world game full of collectibles.

Making the 18th iteration of Halo and Horizon is much more innovative! Rumor has it Microsoft will add 2 new tracks and 3 cars this year!

 

[psorcerer]

That’s the idea apparently. But I’m not sure if there is anything preventing triangle per 4 pixels for example. Less detail, but the 4K crowd will give it a tick. Also other overlayed objects can be 4K then too etc.

But with smart upscaling it’s likely a moot point anyway.

Triangle per pixel is inefficient.
At least 1 vertex per 4x4 is ok.
The fact that the noise was even seen in the UE5 demo implies that it's at least 2x2 per vertex.
Btw, "wider" hardware means it needs more pixels per vertex. Not less.

 

[Dr Strange]

Epic And Microsoft Aren’t Saying Whether That Unreal PS5 Demo Can Run On Xbox Series X [UPDATE]

Epic Games’ impressive Unreal 5 tech demo revealed earlier this week was running on a PS5 development kit. Whether it can also run on Xbox Series X remains a mystery.

kotaku.com

I didn't hear about June 10 for Series S. Where did that one come from?

Jeff grubb has said.

 

[Gamernyc78]

I have zero interest whatsoever in console wars, petty tribalism and weird forum politics. There’s no hidden implication behind anything I’ve said. I’m buying both and I hope Microsoft make in roads this generation so that they stick around and keep the competition up.
If you think what I’ve said somehow slights XBX or unduly praises PS5, that says more about you and what you’re sensitive to, for whatever reasons.

I also don’t care about how “the masses” misunderstand or misinterpret anything. Both Road to PS5 and this UE5 demo were technical presentations, and they were both very clear in what they were saying for anyone paying attention.

You’re writing like a politician. I care about what those in the industry say, now about what or how other people think. That’s weird and doesn’t interest me.

Dont worry, thts his way. He always trys to paint himself as this "neutral" gamer taking no sides just using logic but I've seen him "like" some Microsoft schilling posts lol so we know what the real agenda is.

 

[Three Jackdaws]

Epic And Microsoft Aren’t Saying Whether That Unreal PS5 Demo Can Run On Xbox Series X [UPDATE]

Epic Games’ impressive Unreal 5 tech demo revealed earlier this week was running on a PS5 development kit. Whether it can also run on Xbox Series X remains a mystery.

kotaku.com

Jeff grubb has said.

Yeah it's interesting that Microsoft are not commenting on whether the Series X could run that demo, I think it can but it would certainly struggle on certain elements most notably the fast flight sequence towards the end, that's not a knock on Xbox but I think the tech demo was designed to show the PS5's strength which was the insane I/O of the SSD. Sweeney said he didn't want to comment on whether the Series X would run that demo or I think he was being vague, some people took that to mean he didn't want to give Sony and PS5 a bad wrap or because he was in some sort of marketing deal with Sony and this to me doesn't make sense for severel reasons. It's most likely that the Series X could not run the demo like the PS5 did and he didn't want to mention it because he didn't want to sound bias towards the Playstation. It's not a good look for 3rd party devs to pick sides. But that's just my interpretation and I guess it's all up to speculation.

 

[Gamernyc78]

I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:



You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up.

Awesome analogy and explains it well for the naysayers, oblivious or just concerned trolls. PS5 is just a much more thought out, out of the box and efficient system.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Who at epic is saying this demo would not be possible on series x?

Possible you can run a similar demo but with fewer triangles streaming so is possible you see some differences compare to that demo.

 

[Metroiddarks]

Yall remember this?:


Well, It turned out it was just '' The Ascent '', that isometric game revealed on Inside Xbox.
I particularly liked what was shown of the game, but I don't know if it was worth the hype they made for the magazine.

Possible the best game I saw the last week in that Inside Xbox.

 

[Radical_3d]

I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:



You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up.

Well. There it is. No matter what green team wouldn’t get it, as some of them even think that all of this is cheap and their “2080ti console” would cost more than the “2070 console”. But they are different machines that operate on a very different manner, and they are built allocating the cost in different components. This is not new, anyways. It’s what devs have been saying months so I don’t expect anyone to change their opinion.

 

[Gediminas]

I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:



You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up.

sounds powerful.

interesting, no one is commenting it :/

 

[pasterpl]

Remember: Epic could have used XSX or PC, but instead they used PS5 to show the demo. That's certainly telling...

exactly, it is telling....who have more $$$ to epic

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I his defense, pushing triangles is inherently parallel, regardless of the size of the triangles. LOL

I can guarantee that AMD and Nvidia will be bringing forward some of the widest designs ever seen in the GPU space in the short term, and they will perform just fine.

What has been demonstrated is one software approach that utilizes a lot of data movement over a wide pipe. I think next we'll see an approach based on achieving the same visual fidelity while using a lot less data. We'll need to compare the end results to see where things fall.

To mimic that you would need at least 16-24Gb of VRAM and around 32-64GB of RAM to compensate for the ancient design of current PC's.

 

[yewles1]

I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:



You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up.

A certain rendering engineer may be redeemed in the future, methinks...

 

[FranXico]

sounds powerful.

interesting, no one is commenting it :/

Only indies on Twitter matter.

 

[Ptarmiganx2]

It will not increase pixel count, whoever says that is full of it. And in all honesty I have yet to see anyone say such a crazy thing. Everything else you say is legit.

Regarding Increasing Ram, it becomes a fools errand at some point, you cannot keep going in that direction. Load times would increase exponentially without tackling the entire pipeline for improvement, new Quality of life innovations like suspending and resuming gameplay also become impossible.

A balanced future is the right path.

It’s almost as if one of the two manufactures was at the forefront of driving the industry forward, even if it is difficult to show fully on the spec sheet. Maybe that Cerny guy knows something?

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Knowing that what was seen in the UE5 demo did not fit in RAM and should be sent directly by Streaming ... I think it should have been clear since the SSD (and all the IO) will be quite relevant. It matters little how much RAM XSX may have. The IO will make a difference. It is a different architecture, and there is nothing like it. Therefore, it cannot be compared with anything from the past, nor can it be programmed as in the past. Pretending to make any kind of comparison is rubbish. I understand the need, but it cannot be done.

Only the results can be compared (yes), and they can be better, the same or worse, but the way of doing it is totally different. The basis of both may seem the same, but at the same time it is not. Many will find it difficult to understand this, but they will realize it over the years. PS5 is already a benchmark in the creation of new architectures on PC. Too many bottlenecks are on PC today, and they are fated to go away. PS5 has none. Even the size of the SSD is designed for it. It is not chosen at random.

I hope Google has done a decent translation.

Yup, they need more years to understand it. For that very reason (simplicity, superior hardware) I can see more and more publishers and indies jumping in to make PS5 exclusives, or at least timed exclusives as it's way more time/money sufficient and would definitely dominate as usual. Who would want to be making 5 versions of the same game for one less popular ecosystem?

 

[Ptarmiganx2]

On another note guys....how about that Ghost of Tsushima reveal today? From the past trailers I honestly expected them to push the game out further and finally announce it was actually a PS5 title, but it's all PS4 and looks AMAZING. Of course, I can see some differences with that UE5 demo from yesterday, but still. This thing looks IMPRESSIVE. As long as it performs in game like we're seeing in these trailers.....just.....WOW. I am so hyped for this game. I was REALLY waiting for TLOU2 but the "leaks" have tempered my excitement a good bit (unfortunately I wasn't able to avoid spoilers, at least the written kind). I'm STILL hoping that the leaks came from an earlier version of the game and story but we'll see.

In any case, I'm still hyped for TLOUS2 and getting more hyped for Ghost of Tsushima by the day! Anyone else?

Me watching the 'State of Play' today!

That is how you close out a generation! I just have to find time to play both titles!

 

[Ascend]

You are always talking in such a vague way. Instead of giving “hints”, why do you not precisely state what you want to tell? This would help a technical discussion.

Maybe because I want you to think rather than mindlessly repeat PR drivel.

 

[zubairali2]

I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:



You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up.

the last part of that quote reminds me of what jason schreier tweeted back in march

 

[Metroiddarks]

A certain rendering engineer may be redeemed in the future, methinks...

 

[IntentionalPun]

I swear a lot of you are just completely ignoring how scalable Epic claimed the engine was.. how you could make a game targeting "next gen high end consoles" that works fine on a cell phone.

That's the huge news for developers to me. It kind of squashes the notion that you have to ignore older hardware to really take advantage of the massive I/O of the PS5 SSD... and completely contradicts what some of you are saying about developers ignoring other systems in favor of PS5.

 

[DaGwaphics]

To mimic that you would need at least 16-24Gb of VRAM and around 32-64GB of Ram to compensate for the ancient design of current PC's.

Where do you need the VRAM? On your neural network or on the final render machine?

The size of the datasets you are storing controls the storage bandwidth you need, final quality isn't necessarily tied to the actual asset in storage at this point. Many ways to skin the cat as they say.

Any way you look at it, the UE5 demo was quite nice, best thing we've seen so far.

I swear a lot of you are just completely ignoring how scalable Epic claimed the engine was.. how you could make a game targeting "next gen high end consoles" that works fine on a cell phone.

That's the huge news for developers to me. It kind of squashes the notion that you have to ignore older hardware to really take advantage of the massive I/O of the PS5 SSD... and completely contradicts what some of you are saying about developers ignoring other systems in favor of PS5.

Scalability is a dirty concept in these here parts, partner.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Where do you need the VRAM? On your neural network or on the final render machine?

The size of the datasets you are storing controls the storage bandwidth you need, final quality isn't necessarily tied to the actual asset in storage at this point. Many ways to skin the cat as they say.

Any way you look at it, the UE5 demo was quite nice, best thing we've seen so far.

It's to have them sitting around ready to be used there instead of directly streaming from any kind of SSD. My current SSD is 3.5GB/s and will never manage to do that because of all the bottlenecks on PC. So the RAM would be the initial placement for potentially calling in new assets of specific range, then the VRAM is to work directly with them as PS5's RAM is actually a VRAM, or let's simply say that both PS5 and XSX theoretically have no traditional RAM's. Cache scrubbers are insanely critical here as well and you'll still face some stalls in traditional PC and XSX methods so you would expect frame drops or stutter.

 

[Ptarmiganx2]

Well, last trailer didn't feel right to me, but probably because it's on easy mode. It looks extremely easy, I hope it's as hard and punishing as GOW at max difficulty. Naughty Dog games are pretty hard anyway, so they bring the joy of accomplishment pretty well. I'm getting the highest possible version preorders from both!

You are a brave man! Max difficulty is no longer in my repertoire now that I’m in my 40’s. Although I can afford the multiple broken controllers much easier than in my younger years.

 

[3liteDragon]

Again with the 100GB

I made a post about this earlier if anyone remembers, see how quick people fall for these marketing skins? This is what I’m talking about.

 

[Audiophile]

Again with the 100GB

They're touting software functionality as if it's something Sony won't be able to match by a different name or method with their own APIs. The only hardware functionality detailed so far that gives MS an advantage in this specific area is hardware blocks that accelerate sampler feedback.

Also, the actual amount of data being moved through the pipes is 2.4GB/s and the resulting amount of data coming out after decompression is up to 4.8GB/s. He seems to think it's 4.8GB/s being moved and even more will come out after further decompression.

I constantly see MS touting software and api variations of features as being some Xbox-exclusive capability and these guys lap it up. "Xbox Velocity Architecture" for eg. is a great piece of branding and Sony would do well to take a leaf out of their book went it comes to these sorts of names. Things like "DirectX Ray Tracing" on Xbox somehow being an advantage over just "Ray Tracing" on PS5. In reality, Sony will have the same core functionality by a different, less flashy name and based on precedent, their APIs will likely do a slightly more efficient job of it. DirectX has come on leaps and bounds and without a doubt it makes sense for MS to leverage it on Xbox. But touting it as an advantage when it comes to the end result is just marketing fluff.

Instead of just "a fast ssd and i/o", Sony should call it the "Rapid Data Engine (RDE)".

And instead of "Tempest 3D AudioTech engine" it should be "Tempest Audio Path (TAP)".

 

[Rusco Da Vino]

I have something for you guys. Regarding PS5 x XSX. It's from someone in the industry and this is how he sees these consoles:



You can ask mods to verify where that piece of opinion came from if you want, I'm not making it up.

Can you share if he/she is a 1st dev or 3rd dev with access to both consoles hardware?

To put it in context.

 

[FranXico]

I swear a lot of you are just completely ignoring how scalable Epic claimed the engine was.. how you could make a game targeting "next gen high end consoles" that works fine on a cell phone.

No. Nobody is ignoring that. Some people are ignoring that the demo showed something the PS5 excels at. It could perfectly run on the XSX, and maybe at 4k, but not with the same amount of detail at some points. And taking into account how that demo was designed, we are still going to see better examples sooner or later.

The portability and scalability of Unreal Engine is a feature it has had for a long time.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Did somebody see this? EA can't help it.

Smart Delivery is essentially Cross Buy. They are both there, and optional for the Publisher.

 

[FranXico]

Smart Delivery is essentially Cross Buy. They are both there, and optional for the Publisher.

Sshhh... don't take away the mystical appeal of marketing buzzwords.

 

[pasterpl]

Why Is Epic Cheerleading PS5 And Being Weird About Xbox Series X With UE5?

Epic debuted Unreal Engine 5 on PS5, and went out of its way not to mention Xbox Series X at all. What's going on?

www.forbes.com

 

[yewles1]

Oh you know this old tale... involves a removed article and such, just mundanely stuff here and there, not really worth going on a "Hunt" for details over...

 

[Ptarmiganx2]

NX Gamer chiming in.

Wait did he just say tflops are no longer the primary determinant of power this generation? With the PS5 having double the throughput the power crown doesn’t seem as obvious now...does it?

 

[IntentionalPun]

No. Nobody is ignoring that. Some people are ignoring that the demo showed something the PS5 excels at. It could perfectly run on the XSX, and maybe at 4k, but not with the same amount of detail at some points. And taking into account how that demo was designed, we are still going to see better examples sooner or later.

The portability and scalability of Unreal Engine is a feature it has had for a long time.

Maybe you didn't read the convo almost directly above my post about how devs are going to just make PS5 exclusive games?

 

[Metroiddarks]

Oh you know this old tale... involves a removed article and such, just mundanely stuff here and there, not really worth going on a "Hunt" for details over...

Oh the Crytek guy