joe_zazen
Member
I'm sure the people working at Sony and Nintendo are all true, passionate gamers
Oh what a wonderful world to live in where there's companies not out to make money
duh.
i laugh at all corporate dupes. Actually i cry.
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The Verge: Xbox Series S (7.5GB usable RAM, 4TF GPU, Up: Same CPU)
- Thread starter Thirty7ven
- Start date
- Rumor
duh.
i laugh at all corporate dupes. Actually i cry.
martino
Member
People forget crysis.
If xbox first party do it this way there will be no problem.
We will have the answer with halo soon.
And if it's not showing that , then we can worry
(and i will the first to). For now they have benefit of the doubt.
Ps5 will be lead but not because of Lockhart.
And in an unlikely scenario where Lockhart make them in front of ps5 sales it's possible xsx would be lead downscaled on the two others.
McHuj
Member
It would be 10 GB total.
5 2GB GDDR6 chips. at 14 Gbps this gives you a BW of 280 GB/sec on 160 bus. This is exactly half of the XSX bandwidth. They can't go lower in chip count as the bandwidth woudl start dropping too much. 5 chips on a 160-bit bus is probably the optimal cost point.
The entire SOC would be really tiny as well. I can see them hitting a $199 pricepoint. $249 tops.
It's disappointing that the BW and CPU will be slightly weaker than the XSX as that could cause some problems in the future.
5 2GB GDDR6 chips. at 14 Gbps this gives you a BW of 280 GB/sec on 160 bus. This is exactly half of the XSX bandwidth. They can't go lower in chip count as the bandwidth woudl start dropping too much. 5 chips on a 160-bit bus is probably the optimal cost point.
The entire SOC would be really tiny as well. I can see them hitting a $199 pricepoint. $249 tops.
It's disappointing that the BW and CPU will be slightly weaker than the XSX as that could cause some problems in the future.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
It doesn’t matter how typical something is, I was providing the official definition for ‘usable ram’.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
joe_zazen
Member
thick abstraction layers, permanent backcompat, need to code for streaming, old hardware....it all adds up when it comes to design. You are probably right that xss in and of itself wont matter, it is all the other stuff.
from a business pov, it is a good choice. The most profitable and popular games do not push the boundaries of anything except possibly netcode.
Psykodad
Banned
So, native 4K/30fps is bad, but a cheap 1080p console is good now?
The mental gymnastics are all over the place.
I'll stand by what I said, if these rumors are true and Sony will price PS5 digital in between Lockhart and XSX, or maybe even between Lockhart and PS5 Disc (if XSX will be the most expensive), MS might just as well cancel their next-gen.
It'll be a PR nightmare for them.
The mental gymnastics are all over the place.
I'll stand by what I said, if these rumors are true and Sony will price PS5 digital in between Lockhart and XSX, or maybe even between Lockhart and PS5 Disc (if XSX will be the most expensive), MS might just as well cancel their next-gen.
It'll be a PR nightmare for them.
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bitbydeath
Gold Member
. If you say so.
If you're so confident, avatar bet?
Against a rumour?
Anything can change. It may not even exist at all.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Then should be an easy bet for you.
Lockhart is is indeed real and has 10GB of RAM
Vs
Rumor not true.
1 month.
bitbydeath
Gold Member
Sure, why not.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Deal.
Psykodad
Banned
All PS5 games are already running at native 4k though. Lol
01011001
Banned
no they don't. Sackboy Adventure, or whatever it's called, runs at 1512p
fran.fernandez
Member
Poor Xbox, they are so afraid of ps5, they sound like Dreamcast now, bad dreamcast
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joe_zazen
Member
idk why people keep bring up pc as if it proves baselines don't affect game development. Expensive gaming pcs are always under utilised and never optimised for. So yes, those people running $500 laptops do have an effect on what $3000 gamerguy gets to play in the future.
Psykodad
Banned
My bad, almost all PS5 games so far.
Completely forgot Sackboy Adventures was a thing.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
But having 2 consoles is not some huge optimization task compared to having to target a myriad of PCs. And developers DO in fact test on a wide range of PCs and target different levels. PC development gets brought up, because... it's relevant here.
And thanks for deleting the part of my comment where I indicate I wish Lockhart didn't exist and it will have an effect. Nothing in my post indicated I wasn't aware that $500 laptops have an effect on high end PCs. Kindly get lost with that shit.
If it sells like hotcakes it's gonna be a good thing for devs... if it flops it could be a disaster for Microsoft as devs might tell them to fuck off having to support it. But I doubt it will ever be that big of a deal; scaling is built into these engines already even if they are targeting ONE hardware platform.
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joe_zazen
Member
short attention span on my part, didnt read whole thing. Sorry.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
What I don't understand is, you believe it will have 7.5GB of RAM? Somewhere in the system they will have put a 512MB chip? And also in the article they clearly say:
Since we know that XSX has 13.5GB of RAM for gaming, don't you think that 7.5GB of RAM in case of Lockhart will also be for gaming?
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jackets with pockets
Banned
Microsoft will ruin next-gen.
I hope that Sony does not have something like this in their sleeve.
EDIT: I also hope that noboby buys or supports Lockart and it will end up slowly withering away and gladly forgotten.
I hope that Sony does not have something like this in their sleeve.
EDIT: I also hope that noboby buys or supports Lockart and it will end up slowly withering away and gladly forgotten.
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IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Not a big deal, just was frustrating lol
My take on this is that I wish this shit didn't exist but also don't think it's that big of a deal. I think people overstate how much games are going to be "designed" in ways that only could be done on next-gen hardware. The biggest thing would be if it has an SSD as that can cause your asset streaming to be designed quite differently. But designing around GPU power? We have games that are pretty damn graphically impressive that could scale down to PS3 hardware. And things like lower memory bandwidth matter less because the assets can be smaller on this machine. Even the I/O could be lower, just has to not be an HDD.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
If MS are hellbent on releasing a Series S, I HOPE they make an absolutely clear statement that the Series S is the port-down machine, i.e the Series X is the main platform and baseline for their next-gen system development. It needs to be a 100% clear-cut statement, no wiggle room, and set the record straight.
Because while there are even people here concern-trolling and doing bad faith arguments Lockhart will hold back Series X, to be perfectly honest...there is no definitive statement from MS on this to shut down any of those concerns, either. All of the hype and goodwill they've built up for next-gen has been through the XSX; if they either outright go forward internally or let a narrative dominate that Lockhart/Series S will be their main focus, all of that hype and goodwill will be lost. Literally all of it.
I still say there are logistical reasons to not release Lockhart, in fact some of those are the same reason I have doubts with Sony's dual PS5 SKu strategy, too. But at least in Sony's case the only thing different between the two models is a disc drive. The differences between XSX and Lockhart/Series S are MUCH more pronounced and that increases the threat in bad production allocation for one device over the other while leaving demand unfulfilled, risking a loss of sales.
In other words, if a PS5 buyer wants a PS5 and the disc unit isn't there, they probably won't be too fussed to buy the Digital Edition. Same experience, just no physical media. Plus Sony could always just release a disc drive reader in the future if Digital Edition owners want physical media without needing to purchase the disc PS5. If a XSX buyer wants a XSX but it isn't there, they're presented with a Series S and might choose to pass since there are very specific things one could want out of XSX that Lockhart/Series S can't provide. The risk is, if there's a PS5 around instead, that would-be XSX buyer could very well just pick up a PS5 instead and never look back. In the case both XSX and both PS5 versions are gone, they could just opt to wait until one of them is back in stock, and still refuse buying a Lockhart/Series S.
That's the genuine concern here. Let's face it, the vast majority of launch day and launch-period console buyers are hardcore/core gamers who aren't necessarily price-conscious, if the value is there. XSX presents the value. PS5 presents the value. Lockhart/Series S might present value to more casual types, but they don't make up the vast majority of console buyers within the first year or so. I get the feeling MS is trying to replicate the Wii here, where that's the only home console in history which appealed to casuals right off the bat, in addition to hardcore/core gamers.
But, the Wii did this by providing a playing experience NO OTHER CONSOLE had up to that point. The concept was just so novel and fresh that it drove adoption to the platform immediately. As far as we know, the Lockhart/Series S is just a weaker XSX in the same traditional console form factor, so where is the hook for casual gamers besides a cheap price? Where is the hook for hardcore/core gamers, for that matter, who we already know aren't as price-conscious at the start of a new generation?
Is it GamePass? Maybe. But GamePass will also be on XSX, and it's already on the XBO S and X to boot. The Wii had a unique hook that was exclusively its own. I get the feeling MS's hook with Lockhart/Series S is to push it as a subscription box to their "Netflix of gaming", i.e GamePass. The question is, will that be enough for casuals?
Personally I don't actually think so, but if they paired GamePass with a roll-in to other film/television subscription services like Netflix, Hulu, HBO MAX etc....that I actually CAN see being a big hook, but only if they could manage a way to subsidize the normal subscription cost for such services into a marginal cost on top of GamePass's fee. But, what streaming service would actually be willing to do this? That's something where you'd want your own streaming service to roll in to push, with your own vault of content. Oddly enough Sony's in a better position to do that than Microsoft.
So overall, I just don't see what besides being cheaper Lockhart/Series S brings to the equation. I'm looking at this in terms of what hook is there to incentivize casuals AND hardcore/core gamers the way the Wii did almost 15 years ago. Price alone was not the main reason the Wii did as well as it did. MS will have the hardcore/core-appealing 1st-party games for sure this time around, but those games will also be available for (and play better on) the XSX. Again, Nintendo (due to their vastly different architectures) had to develop unique software for the Wii and NDS, but that also made each platform appealing enough for many to buy both. I don't want this to go into the "exclusives" argument that keeps getting brought up repetitively, but unique offerings between multiple platform offerings can go a long way, we've already seen this over a decade ago.
So yeah, I really hope MS knows what they are doing with Lockhart/Series S; I still think going exclusively with XSX is the better business plan for short-and-long term. I don't want to see them squander their big chance before the generation kicks off, and so far they've been on-point with messaging and keeping the spotlight on the Xbox Series X. That's best not just for us but for Microsoft as well.
Because while there are even people here concern-trolling and doing bad faith arguments Lockhart will hold back Series X, to be perfectly honest...there is no definitive statement from MS on this to shut down any of those concerns, either. All of the hype and goodwill they've built up for next-gen has been through the XSX; if they either outright go forward internally or let a narrative dominate that Lockhart/Series S will be their main focus, all of that hype and goodwill will be lost. Literally all of it.
I still say there are logistical reasons to not release Lockhart, in fact some of those are the same reason I have doubts with Sony's dual PS5 SKu strategy, too. But at least in Sony's case the only thing different between the two models is a disc drive. The differences between XSX and Lockhart/Series S are MUCH more pronounced and that increases the threat in bad production allocation for one device over the other while leaving demand unfulfilled, risking a loss of sales.
In other words, if a PS5 buyer wants a PS5 and the disc unit isn't there, they probably won't be too fussed to buy the Digital Edition. Same experience, just no physical media. Plus Sony could always just release a disc drive reader in the future if Digital Edition owners want physical media without needing to purchase the disc PS5. If a XSX buyer wants a XSX but it isn't there, they're presented with a Series S and might choose to pass since there are very specific things one could want out of XSX that Lockhart/Series S can't provide. The risk is, if there's a PS5 around instead, that would-be XSX buyer could very well just pick up a PS5 instead and never look back. In the case both XSX and both PS5 versions are gone, they could just opt to wait until one of them is back in stock, and still refuse buying a Lockhart/Series S.
That's the genuine concern here. Let's face it, the vast majority of launch day and launch-period console buyers are hardcore/core gamers who aren't necessarily price-conscious, if the value is there. XSX presents the value. PS5 presents the value. Lockhart/Series S might present value to more casual types, but they don't make up the vast majority of console buyers within the first year or so. I get the feeling MS is trying to replicate the Wii here, where that's the only home console in history which appealed to casuals right off the bat, in addition to hardcore/core gamers.
But, the Wii did this by providing a playing experience NO OTHER CONSOLE had up to that point. The concept was just so novel and fresh that it drove adoption to the platform immediately. As far as we know, the Lockhart/Series S is just a weaker XSX in the same traditional console form factor, so where is the hook for casual gamers besides a cheap price? Where is the hook for hardcore/core gamers, for that matter, who we already know aren't as price-conscious at the start of a new generation?
Is it GamePass? Maybe. But GamePass will also be on XSX, and it's already on the XBO S and X to boot. The Wii had a unique hook that was exclusively its own. I get the feeling MS's hook with Lockhart/Series S is to push it as a subscription box to their "Netflix of gaming", i.e GamePass. The question is, will that be enough for casuals?
Personally I don't actually think so, but if they paired GamePass with a roll-in to other film/television subscription services like Netflix, Hulu, HBO MAX etc....that I actually CAN see being a big hook, but only if they could manage a way to subsidize the normal subscription cost for such services into a marginal cost on top of GamePass's fee. But, what streaming service would actually be willing to do this? That's something where you'd want your own streaming service to roll in to push, with your own vault of content. Oddly enough Sony's in a better position to do that than Microsoft.
So overall, I just don't see what besides being cheaper Lockhart/Series S brings to the equation. I'm looking at this in terms of what hook is there to incentivize casuals AND hardcore/core gamers the way the Wii did almost 15 years ago. Price alone was not the main reason the Wii did as well as it did. MS will have the hardcore/core-appealing 1st-party games for sure this time around, but those games will also be available for (and play better on) the XSX. Again, Nintendo (due to their vastly different architectures) had to develop unique software for the Wii and NDS, but that also made each platform appealing enough for many to buy both. I don't want this to go into the "exclusives" argument that keeps getting brought up repetitively, but unique offerings between multiple platform offerings can go a long way, we've already seen this over a decade ago.
So yeah, I really hope MS knows what they are doing with Lockhart/Series S; I still think going exclusively with XSX is the better business plan for short-and-long term. I don't want to see them squander their big chance before the generation kicks off, and so far they've been on-point with messaging and keeping the spotlight on the Xbox Series X. That's best not just for us but for Microsoft as well.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
How can it be possible to do any raytracing on Lockhart (regardless of resolution)? The hardware doesn't seem to be strong enough to support it.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
There's no chance of RT on a 4TF GPU.
NullZ3r0
Banned
Do PC developers make a different version of their games for every video card and PC spec on the market?
There will be no One X or S in a couple of years. MS will kill those and tell people to move over to the Series A. Unlike past generations, the hardware this generation is a massive leap with the CPU and NVME storage. Games designed for next gen simply won't be able to run on these machines. Sony took the hardline route and said, they're not making anymore games for last gen consoles. Microsoft is being a bit more cautious, but is providing Lockhart to force the price-conscious people to upgrade.
That's the purpose of Lockhart. To get people off of the old technology. It's essentially a next gen replacement for One S/X. MS will make it cheap enough to get these people moved over.
Sony will respond with more aggressive PS5 pricing at $399 and $349 respectively. Don't buy the "value" argument. That's just a smoke screen to make the other guy come in at a higher price.
People buy smart phones and vehicles all the time. They won't be confused. This will be yet another product with a cheaper, low-end option.
The same way you explain to them that a 2020 4 cylinder with a turbo is faster than your 2013 6 cylinder. Newer stuff is usually more advanced than older stuff.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
What system would ship with 7.5 GB of RAM? That's not even physically possible with the GDDR6 these systems use.
If the speculation's correct, then the 7.5 GB is for games; 2.5 reserved for OS meaning the total system RAM would be 10 GB as (most likely) 4x 2 GB modules and 2x 1 GB modules for 10 GB on a 192-bit bus.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Do you want your consoles to be like PCs though?
bitbydeath
Gold Member
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Post! The bolded is super important! One must remember that this gen for MS started off to a bad start due to too much corporate thinking and policies. Why potentially do the same thing again with this next generation of console?
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
You have a point there, ah well I’m all locked in for the bet now anyway.
I'll go easy on you.
( I won't).
01011001
Banned
if it uses the same RDNA2 architecture it most likely will have RT hardware in every CU.
we know that AMD will release RNDA2 GPUs on the low end PC and Mobile sector that will lack the RT hardware completely, but let's assume that's not the case here.
if it still has RT acceleration that will absolutely be no issue.
if we look at how most games now handle RT effects like reflections, we see that they usually render these at 50% horizontal and vertical resolution (25% overall resolution)
a Lockhart game running at 1080p would basically run RT reflections at 540p, and on Series X where the game would run at 4K, the RT reflections instead would run at 1080p.
we also saw this in the early gameplay and trailer for GranTourismo during the PS5 reveal. there the game also ran at 4k with the reflections running at 50% on each axis.
and that's also how they work in Battlefield 5
so the RT performance needed if you lower the resolution from 4k+1080pRTR to 1080p+540pRTR also goes down by 75%
a 4TF RDNA2 gpu should therefore have no issue having RT effects that are scaled down to fit it's performance level.
John Wick
Member
Kumomeme
Member
huh....4tf gpu, slower cpu speed( i guess it slower than ps5?) and 7.5gb memory for games..ssd speed is same? i wonder what will happened later at midgen when both company release another stronger midgen refresh
for ms, there is 3 sku that devs need to optimize with one of it has 7.5gb memory over 13.5gb of base console...even this gen lot of devs still dont bother to release upgrade patch for stronger version ps4 pro/x1x and wonder how this will play out later..
everyone keep saying "reduce the magic slider" but for devs surely more than that....optimizing is not easy especially for smaller studio.
for ms, there is 3 sku that devs need to optimize with one of it has 7.5gb memory over 13.5gb of base console...even this gen lot of devs still dont bother to release upgrade patch for stronger version ps4 pro/x1x and wonder how this will play out later..
everyone keep saying "reduce the magic slider" but for devs surely more than that....optimizing is not easy especially for smaller studio.
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John Wick
Member
It has 10GB ram.Yeah, has to be fake. The OS will likely consume 2.5GB of that 7.5GB leaving a max of 5GB for games.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
The bolded is super important! One must remember that this gen for MS started off to a bad start due to too much corporate thinking and policies. Why potentially do the same thing again with this next generation of console?
Yeah, that is a potential worry here. I wonder if the influence of the Azure/cloud side could be factoring into them wanting to do Lockhart/Series S this soon. Personally if they were coming out with a Series S maybe a year or two after XSX I'd have no issues there and there wouldn't be any logistical/production allocation issues for MS either.
But all speculation is pointing to simultaneous launch and I personally don't like the sound of it. Series S/Lockhart just doesn't interest me as a next-gen platform at this point. Even PS5 Digital Edition kind of pushes that since I prefer physical media, but at least in that system's case it's more or less the same as the other PS5.
That all said, if Lockhart/Series S has some unique feature as a hook comparable to what the Wii brought back in its day, I'll warm up to it a lot more. And I think a lot of hardcore/core gamers probably would as well, since it would also still be getting the core games they'd want (like the Wii provided with TP, Red Steel etc.). Hopefully those versions would take advantage of Lockhart/Series S's unique gaming hook (if it has one, which I think is absolutely necessary because again, cheaper price alone isn't enough).
T-Cake
Member
I didn't mention my thoughts about the price, just that it would be a bargain at $199. I think it will be £249 so that would be $299. Happy now?
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plip.plop
Member
These specs really enforce the idea I had earlier that Microsoft was entering this next-gen on two fronts. The Series X was clearly made to compete with the PS5 and Series S was a response to Stadia. This thing has not been announced because Stadia is a flop and the market is not interested in this type of device. Shelve it Microsoft, the Series S is going to be this upcoming generation Kinect.
Schmick
Member
Totally in the same park as you. I dont own a 4k TV. This is a fantastic approach to next gen. Why exactly people are having issue with it is beyond me. This opens next gen to soo many people! Money for MS and developers to provide more services and games. This is a win win.
Further more I have never been so optimistic about xCloud having experienced PSN for PC myself. Its works really well. Maybe XSS combines it's hardware with xCloud.
Lol just had a thought... what if Sony later announced a PS5 lite?! Neogaf would explode!
Investor9872
Member
I'm fine with Lockhart having a "slightly slower CPU," but I'm most definitely NOT fine with Lockhart having a minus -6GB of RAM vs the XB Series X. Hell no!
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
There isn't any reason to put the power of XSX in a streaming device lol
Investor9872
Member
No. Not all.
IntentionalPun
Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
It's possible the idea is that it will come out in like 2 years, when MS essentially deprecates support for current Xbox One machines.
That might be why we haven't heard much about it. I think that's both confusing but makes some sense too. By 2020 I bet Lockhart actually COULD be a $200 machine. Just not sure how that works with dev support for the first 2 years of games.
But FWIW.. this IS it leaking.. and it's not the first leak of info about it.
I'm honestly hoping we haven't heard about it because MS is cancelling it lol
Psykodad
Banned
Yeah, got corrected on Sackboy.
Major titels still run at 4K though.
NullZ3r0
Banned
How does that affect games like Control that run with full raytracing on higher end rigs? Game still looks awesome.
The big change for next gen isn't even the GPU, it's the CPU and NVME drives. These two things will fundamentally impact next gen game design to the point where next gen games won't be able to run on previous gen consoles.
Sony and MS want as many people as possible to upgrade right away. Sony plans on attacking this problem by 1) Stopping all last gen game development cold turkey and 2) a really, really aggressive price point.
MS is being cautious by offering Lockhart to move price-conscious One S and One X owners to their next gen architecture. Lockhart is being designed especially for these people who can't afford a $400 console. Instead of having them on an older architecture, Lockhart is designed to be a machine at an impulse price point to get those people moved over quick. Otherwise, devs would be tempted to cripple next gen games design-wise to run on PS4 and Xbox One family consoles just to make money. Unlike previous gens, this isn't an option for Sony and Microsoft. They didn't build machines to run last gen games on newer engines. They want games designed for next gen.