Support NeoGAF

[PaintTinJr]

What do issues between Sony and Nintendo have to do with them integrated fast I/O?
S

Not just fast; lower latency is the key(IMHO), and from what we know going by the Nvidia RTX IO technical stuff that is nowhere close on latency (because of PCIE latency transporting data between IO card and GPU card) and from what Tim Sweeney has said, no one else has a comparative solution, and even if they did have a discrete card solution for the PC, they certainly won't have one available for APU integration at console power constraints, and ready to go now, for Nintendo to integrate into a console they'll want to launch in less than two years (IMHO).

So yeah, they'll have to go to Sony, or hope Sony let someone like Toshiba(that Sony have close ties to) be the company to value-add and sell the tech on.

 

[Loxus]

Textures that are behind the player would not normally be rendered. That's what occlusion culling does.

Horizon Zero Dawn is a good example about what I'm talking bout.

Horizon Zero Dawn load chucks of the map to both have less things in RAM and also less work for the GPU, but is limited my HDD speed.
The PS5 on the other hand will take this concept to a whole other level.
If you have a game that turns 180 in half a second, like most games, behind me or off screen would have to already being rendered in some form.
I could be wrong though.

 

[Pedro Motta]

Except most of that list came true.

Prove it.

 

[onesvenus]

Horizon Zero Dawn is a good example about what I'm talking bout.

Horizon Zero Dawn load chucks of the map to both have less things in RAM and also less work for the GPU, but is limited my HDD speed.
The PS5 on the other hand will take this concept to a whole other level.
If you have a game that turns 180 in half a second, like most games, behind me or off screen would have to already being rendered in some form.
I could be wrong though.

Almost every game does the same. You usually do frustum culling to avoid the unneeded GPU work and a coarser culling to know what you need and don't need in memory.

You are right that with the PS5 I/O being so good you will be able to remove things from memory more aggressively , though.

 

[By-mission]

.

 

[MasterCornholio]

Except most of that list came true.

Except FUD is false. Or are you claiming the PS5 is an overheating noisy as heck 5TF system that doesn't have RDNA2 CUs in it?

And I forgot that many games were supposed to be 1080P on it, the SSD would be variable and that backwards compatibility would be broken.

Maybe im looking at the wrong list.

 

[Lysandros]

Demons Souls not having RT would bother me if they hadn’t shown the game yet. But it’s the best looking game releasing this year so... complaining seems odd.

Specially when other games have RT.

I agree but there was really no need for misleading or confusing info about it from a studio of the caliber of Bluepoint. They should clarify situation and say it straight; question of integrity.

 

[Thirty7ven]

I agree but there was really no need for misleading or confusing info about it from a studio of the caliber of Bluepoint. They should clarify situation and say it straight; question of integrity.

Seems to me like it was Sony PR that skipped a beat, so I wouldn't blame BluePoint.

 

[PaintTinJr]

The UE5 demo DID have real-time ray-tracing (GI and shadows), the only difference being that it was software-based and not hardware-accelerated (which still looked incredibly impressive, wonder how much of a difference you're gonna see with hardware-accelerated triangle-based RT). The UE5 demo had a VOXEL-BASED representation of all the geometry in the scene for large-scale light transfer so it's less intensive on the hardware since it's not tracing all the triangles on the model, but it's more of a simplified version of the scene geometry.

Inside Unreal Engine 5: how Epic delivers its generational leap

Epic's reveal of Unreal Engine 5 running in real-time on PlayStation 5 delivered one of the seismic news events of the …

www.eurogamer.net

So Demon's Souls could be using a software-accelerated non-triangle-based RT solution (I could be flat-out wrong on this and it could turn out to be hardware-accelerated, I'm just guessing lol), but that still means the game has real-time ray-traced shadows and global illumination.

You are technically correct, but saying it is software-based and isn't hardware accelerated (in UE5 demo) isn't consistent with why a description like that would have been used in the past.

Historically, software solutions for real-time rendering were considered inferior, because without hardware acceleration to offload the task, this was an additional drain on general purpose (CPU/RAM) compute resources, that then typically needed scaled back (eg software renderer for Quake 2, versus Opengl/Glide GPu accelerated on an old Pentium 120Mhz )

The async compute is hardware accelerating the algorithms on the PS5 and the inferior notion of software based is equally misrepresentative, because accelerating general purpose algorithms on GPU compute provides an additional benefit of removing redundant brute forcing, leading to more intelligent higher order solutions, that provide better results for the same computation - which Carmack and Sweeney have been advocating for, which makes sense as they began their careers prior to 3D accelerators, and miss the ability to flexibly approach the graphics problem, even beyond what shaders allowed.

 

[Killer Sakoman]

I already pasted this but this is the speech-to-text in english that they translated. It's not an error in the translation

In addition to that, I've asked the guy from the other article, the one claiming it has RT and he told me he might have understood it wrong. He has asked for a clarification to Sony and is waiting for an answer. I wouldn't take that as granted

Demon's Souls has a better technology than RT. It is called " you know".
Anyway, the game looks better than Spider-Man MM which has RT. So, missing RT does not mean bad graphics. At the end, the game is using fully real time lighting and shadows with tesselated textures that are self shadowing. That's why it looks incredible. Some scenes are really good that they look like a fake ubisoft E3 demo.

 

[Arioco]

While I'm not spanish, my spanish chops are ok. Happy to translate what the interviews say, with proper context. First, the one that says Demon Souls has no Ray Tracing

Confirman que Demon’s Souls no tendrá raytracing en PlayStation 5 | LevelUp

LEVEL UP platicó con Gavin Moore, director creativo del juego y miembro de SIE Japan Studio

levelup.com

Original



Translation



This does lead to believe that there is no Ray Tracing on the game, contradicting previous statements and Sony themselves.Now, the interesting bit as that another "interview" from the day before completely contradicts this.

Así se ha creado Demon’s Souls: conociendo el primer gran exclusivo de PS5

Entrevistamos a Gavin Moore, director creativo del título en SIE Studios, encargado de coordinar tanto al equipo japonés como a Bluepoint Games.

as.com

Original



Translation



This one shows that there is Ray Traced global illumination, from my understanding of what he said.

I'm a Spanish native speaker and I can say your translation is absolutely right.

As I understand it the interview makes no sense not because of your translation, but because the interviewer made a mistake, or the dev didn't understand the question. They ask if Demon's Souls use RT, and the developer answers It does not. But I think what the interviewer meant was "Does DS use RT REFLECTIONS? "( "Reflections" being the key word here), or at least that's what the dev understood he was being asked, and that's why he answers "Nope". We already know RT can be used for many things, reflections being just one of them, but it can also be used for audio, shadows, global illumination or even full RT like the Minecraft demo running on Series X. And I think that's why the devs say the game uses a form of RT global illumination in the second interview, they just meant the game doesn't use RT reflections, not that it doesn't use any form of RT at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if the question asked by LevelUp wasn't clear enough, it's a Spanish site after all, our English leaves a lot to be desired. It seems clear to me the dev thought he was being asked about RT reflections, and that's why both interviews are contradictory, the devs are just answering different questions.

 

[BatSu]

Spoiler

 

[SSfox]

Ryse 2?

It won't Even surprise me tbh, MS always been just following Sony's path, Forza was created only to counter GT, then they tried to created an uncharted like when they see the success of the franchise but didn't work out so they bought TR2 time exclusivity, and with gow hype and success now it wouldn't surprise me they want to make another ryse which is the closest thing to Gow they own.

 

[Duchess]

What does the RD following the names stand for?

 

[MasterCornholio]

The date makes sense because Sony is lifting an embargo on the 6th.

 

[Mr Moose]

What does the RD following the names stand for?

Release date (I didn't know either lol).

 

[FunkMiller]

Ryse 2?

Ryse Again?
Ryse Higher?
Rysen?

 

[GermanZepp]

 

[saintjules]

 

[sircaw]

Ryse Again?
Ryse Higher?
Rysen?

I see when your going with that

Ryzen rdna3

 

[FunkMiller]

The Rock and The Block.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'm a Spanish native speaker and I can say your translation is absolutely right.

As I understand it the interview makes no sense not because of your translation, but because the interviewer made a mistake, or the dev didn't understand the question. They ask if Demon's Souls use RT, and the developer answers It does not. But I think what the interviewer meant was "Does DS use RT REFLECTIONS? "( "Reflections" being the key word here), or at least that's what the dev understood he was being asked, and that's why he answers "Nope". We already know RT can be used for many things, reflections being just one of them, but it can also be used for audio, shadows, global illumination or even full RT like the Minecraft demo running on Series X. And I think that's why the devs say the game uses a form of RT global illumination in the second interview, they just meant the game doesn't use RT reflections, not that it doesn't use any form of RT at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if the question asked by LevelUp wasn't clear enough, it's a Spanish site after all, our English leaves a lot to be desired. It seems clear to me the dev thought he was being asked about RT reflections, and that's why both interviews are contradictory, the devs are just answering different questions.

Calling this now.... DeS does have some RT, and this has been a translation issue.

Cue a lot of “yeah, but” responses when Bluepoint clarify.

 

[DarkParadise]

Nvm, it was fake.

 

[sircaw]

Nvm, it was fake.

i better edit then, good

Xbox fanatics at work again. Geez, do they ever stop, Riky talk to your crowd please,

 

[Arioco]

That's exactly what I meant. The devs tells one interviewer Demon's Souls doesn't use RT reflections, but tells the other that they do use a form of ray-traced global ilumination. At this point I'm afraid only the devs know if they mean a hardware-based GI o just a software-based one like Nanite. In any case it seems clear to me that they were just answering different questions, and that's why we can find it a bit contradictory.

 

[yewles1]

You are technically correct, but saying it is software-based and isn't hardware accelerated (in UE5 demo) isn't consistent with why a description like that would have been used in the past.

Historically, software solutions for real-time rendering were considered inferior, because without hardware acceleration to offload the task, this was an additional drain on general purpose (CPU/RAM) compute resources, that then typically needed scaled back (eg software renderer for Quake 2, versus Opengl/Glide GPu accelerated on an old Pentium 120Mhz )

The async compute is hardware accelerating the algorithms on the PS5 and the inferior notion of software based is equally misrepresentative, because accelerating general purpose algorithms on GPU compute provides an additional benefit of removing redundant brute forcing, leading to more intelligent higher order solutions, that provide better results for the same computation - which Carmack and Sweeney have been advocating for, which makes sense as they began their careers prior to 3D accelerators, and miss the ability to flexibly approach the graphics problem, even beyond what shaders allowed.

Imagine finding a way to put these algorithms on the dedicated RT hardware to get even MORE performance optimization...

 

[ToadMan]

Spoiler

Ubi gonna Ubi.

But to be fair to them they have a big opportunity - 2 new consoles, a new round of lockdowns and people stuck at home thirsty for content.

On top of that the early adopters of Xsex literally have no games apart from third party stuff at launch, PS has one notable exclusive and a couple of others that may be decent.

On top of all that CP2077 is still held hostage in some corporate server.

Ubi can win big - these games will be released no matter what state they’re in.

Let’s see if they bother to patch them that much post launch.

They delayed FC6 at least. There is still some level of quality control at Ubi even if it’s absent in their recent communications about BC and Res/FPS!

 

[bitbydeath]

Controller hype intensifies.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Controller hype intensifies.

I get mine Monday. Can't do anything with it but I'll do some high quality 60mp photos lol

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Thought that wasn’t happening until next week?

I can 100% guarantee there are PS5s hitting the streets

 

[Thirty7ven]

Controller hype intensifies.

How can you not be excited for this? This is rare stuff, it’s not exactly the standard console upgrade we usually get.

It really looks like this could be the “Nintendo moment” for PlayStation, where the experience relies just as much on the interface.

 

[MasterCornholio]

I can 100% guarantee there are PS5s hitting the streets

Not console was stirring not even the PS5.

Really can't wait to see people talk about the thermals and the noise that it makes.

 

[Gudji]

I can 100% guarantee there are PS5s hitting the streets

And here I still have to wait 19 more days (if my country doesn't get locked down).

 

[Moridianae]

I can 100% guarantee there are PS5s hitting the streets

Broken street dates?? By whom? Certainly not major retailers.

 

[Mr. PlayStation]

Gawd i was literally searching for this to show it to someone who explained to me that global illumination isn't ray tracing usage in the demon's souls isn't having ray tracing thread.

 

[Darklor01]

I can 100% guarantee there are PS5s hitting the streets

Legal methods?

 

[Moridianae]

Legal methods?

Certainly not.

 

[Bittermich]

Demons Souls not having RT would bother me if they hadn’t shown the game yet. But it’s the best looking game releasing this year so... complaining seems odd.

Specially when other games have RT.

Flight Simulator would like to have a word with you.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Legal methods?

Certainly not.

The beginning of next week I expect more stuff to start leaking before embargos lift.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Flight Simulator would like to have a word with you.

Got no time for a game that almost doesn’t react to what you do. What you gonna pull next? Myst?

Cyberpunk on a high end PC should look better but the game might not even release this year.

 

[smallpotatosan]

I guess we won’t hear much over the weekend. RT GI/shadow is hard to detect without comparison. I guess Sony will just let it pass

 

[wvnative]

Does anyone know where I can buy that WD SSD for PS5? Can't find a place to actually buy it.

 

[jroc74]

Beat me to it.


So....what exactly are ppl arguing about again?

I dont think any game has claimed to be full pathed, full except that Minecraft demo.

Like HD is 720p to 1080p

4K doesnt mean native.

When companies use descriptive words like native, full.....then let's talk about lies.

 

[geordiemp]

The beginning of next week I expect more stuff to start leaking before embargos lift.

Well if you have one and have no embargo you can leak to your hearts content. We look forward to your impressions.

Once consoles arrive in warehouses, its human nature, consoles will be in players hands early.

Sony should know this and allow embargoes accordingly, otherwise informatin will be leaked anyway.

 

[Cobenzl]

No one’s said anything about the 3D audio and HRTF intergration. I’d imagine the Astrobot game would feature that too. Anyone picked up on leaks associated with that?

 

[THEAP99]

No one’s said anything about the 3D audio and HRTF intergration. I’d imagine the Astrobot game would feature that too. Anyone picked up on leaks associated with that?

I'm wondering i hope we hear about the audio soon.

Lucy from IGN tweeted this past week though that "playing astrobot with headphones and the dualsense on is the closest I've ever gotten to an amusement park in my house" so I think that bodes well, no?

I think we'll hear about it this week hopefully.

Also, people are saying the ps5 doesn't come with HDMI 2.1 CABLE now

 

[DarkParadise]

Even Xbox fanboy Tom Warren is amazed by the Dualsense controller.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Well if you have one and have no embargo you can leak to your hearts content. We look forward to your impressions.

Once consoles arrive in warehouses, its human nature, consoles will be in players hands early.

Sony should know this and allow embargoes accordingly, otherwise informatin will be leaked anyway.

I believe thats why the Nov 6th target date of embargos we have heard Sony knows things will leak.

Even if I had one right now and online play wasnt working right now and was only able to mainly play Astros and waiting on some next gen patches and able to play some games in boost mode that was turning older games into a whole brand new experience while it being virtually silent and insanely fast I wouldnt be able to openly say due to a promise I made.

I will have some impressions coming on Friday though

 

[xacto]

Feels very quiet and subdued today or is that just me, no spider-sense tingling atm.

I am having a very insecure moment because Demon's Souls might not be ray-traced. I am floored. I don't think I will ever buy another Sony console again. I might give up console gaming and buy a PC. My existence is shattered.

I would like to have a steamed salmon and some veg rice bowl now.

 

[geordiemp]

I believe thats why the Nov 6th target date of embargos we have heard Sony knows things will leak.

Even if I had one right now and online play wasnt working right now and was only able to mainly play Astros and waiting on some next gen patches and able to play some games in boost mode that was turning older games into a whole brand new experience while it being virtually silent and insanely fast I wouldnt be able to openly say due to a promise I made.

I will have some impressions coming on Friday though

That is brilliantly funny, your whole first paragraph is correct and being serious about being careful about sharing infoa nd being discrete.

And then the punchline, I will share impressions on Friday.