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[Combichristoffersen]

No it isn't, at least not in real-world application. Out-of-order execution is great for running sloppily compiled code efficiently, unfortunately the fact that its going to receive ported code optimized to run on in-order hardware is going to undercut that advantage substantially.

What you see in the specs is a system designed to run Nintendo games in HD res, no more, no less. Nintendo's key franchise titles are not that processor intensive; which isn't to say they have less merit, its just that you don't need masses of computation to make a better looking mario, just a solid GPU.

Yeah, like I said, I'm no techhead. So what you're saying is that the Wii U CPU basically isn't particularly useful for code that isn't written exclusively to take advantage of the Wii U (i.e. first party games and third party exclusives)? Basically the Wii all over again, if so.

Maybe Nintendo doesn't want ports. Perhaps they want 3rd parties to create fresh games that employ the tablet.

It's nice to want things.

 

[tycoonheart]

You think Nintendo is "courting" 3rd parties? Look at the hardware. Look at the philosophy. It's clear that 1st party is the priority.

Maybe Nintendo doesn't want ports. Perhaps they want 3rd parties to create fresh games that employ the tablet.

 

[I NEED SCISSORS]

What a disaster on so many levels. I used to be optimistic about the Wii U, but now I actually feel a little ashamed that for one second I believed the PR lies of "full HD" and "best version". A simple venture into a Digital Foundry analysis will tell you that the console is markedly inferior. I wanted to believe that perhaps there was 'untapped potential' or 'hidden power', those words which we once associated with the PS3. But no, it appears that there is absolutely none, and these lacklustre ports really are representative.

At least with Sony's box we knew the specs going in, and so could make a fair assessment that the console probably did possess a bit more than it initially let on (ie. subpar ports). In comparison, Nintendo's vagueness and secrecy surrounding the specs - dating back to the first inklings of "Project Cafe" - should have raised alarm bells that it was probably going to have dogshit technology. It reminds me of when you ask a parent for ice cream and they say "we'll see" - it always means NO.

Going forward, I think my notion that it will be dead to 3rd parties within 3 years is becoming alarmingly more accurate. If it is struggling to keep up now, it stands zero chance when PS4 and Durango arrive (probably high fiving each other in an explosion of frothy exuberance at their ensured victory). Nintendo wanted to create another gen for themselves like the Wii, but I think their timing has royally backfired this time. It has ended up feeling like a massively lttp current gen console which won't stand the test of time.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Yet you are basing your disappointment on the secondhand information given here about the processor architecture that has not looked at ANY balance of the system, optimizations made in the packages, efficiencies in the engines that my be afforded by such a platform, etc.

Well, there's also software performance to examine.

 

[HAL_Laboratory]

Maybe Nintendo doesn't want ports. Perhaps they want 3rd parties to create fresh games that employ the tablet.

Absolutely, and the companies who take that route will be rewarded ten fold.

 

[Threi]

yea thats not even close to factual. tons of people hate motion controls. "Far Better" reflects personal preference and nothing more.

No no, it is quite factual. The reverse is true. Liking Dual Analog over IR aiming is a preference. Stating that IR aiming is superior to Dual Analog for First-Person Shooters is a fact. It is a mechanically superior control scheme.

No if's, and's, or buts about it.


Also, motion and IR aiming are two completely separate things. Surprised this far into this gen people still get them mixed up.

 

[SmokyDave]

But aren't you an iPhone gamer?

Yup. Do I care that it's (probably) the best selling smartphone? Nope. Do I get giddy when I see Unreal 3 games on the Retina screen? Yup.

Sales matter for the viability of continued software, period. As a Vita owner, I suspect you'll get to learn that in the next year or two if it doesn't pick up.

I'd rather concentrate on what I have rather than what I might not get.

Unless you care how the industry works, what philosophies are successful VS unsuccessful, what new trends are worth following or ended up being worth following, where the industry might be heading, where it's been, etc. There is a lot to be learned from sales. When I'm sitting in my living room playing games, I don't care. But when I'm shopping an idea to pubs, doing artwork for a studio or planning out a business strategy, yes, it matters for sure.

I know enough to know that there will always be a powerhouse out there for me, be it console, tablet or PC. That's all I need to know. I don't have longstanding franchise allegiances.

I think you're deluded. Vita's sales are extremely poor and unless they don't pick up soon you aren't going to have much content to enjoy on your Vita. But you know...dem specs.

If they stop making games for it tomorrow, it's still provided me personally with more value than my 3DS. Or any other handheld, for that matter and I own 'em all.

 

[Dark-Cloudz]

The only thing I'm learning from this thread is that people still say 'could care less'. That shit makes no sense.

 

[HAL_Laboratory]

Well, there's also software performance to examine.

Please, tell me what Wii U software you have examined first hand.

 

[djtiesto]

Personally, I couldn't care less. Maybe I'm getting old, but graphics just don't matter to me anymore. Give me a fresh game. Something different. Something creative. If Nintendo can provide me with that with the tablet, I'm happy.

Totally agree with you about graphics (I think it was after the DC where I stopped being really impressed by graphics), though I am not much of a fan of the tablet! I'm more interested in what Nintendo does with their core game mechanics than anything.

 

[jerd]

I'd rather concentrate on what I have rather than what I might not get.

Wait... this a defense of the Vita now?

 

[nullset2]

What are u waiting for Marcan, flip that bitch over and homebrew, homebrew like you've never brewed before

My goodness, this is the most beautiful post I've ever seen in my life. It's rife with philosophy and power!

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You think Nintendo is "courting" 3rd parties? Look at the hardware. Look at the philosophy. It's clear that 1st party is the priority.

That's not the message they've been sending for a year.

 

[tycoonheart]

Absolutely, and the companies who take that route will be rewarded ten fold.

No doubt about it. I hope, I really hope that rather than making half-assed ports, 3rd parties really study the Wii-U, and try to deliver games that creatively use the tablet controller. At the end of the day, I think most of us here just want to play good games. So it won't push the same quality the PS3/720 will, who cares? Give me a good game with a fun way to play it. All I need.

 

[moonbox]

AAAARGH!

I know that feeling, it's soul destroying. And then when they try to justify those idiotic words, it's death... Cold, dead, colourless, death...

 

[radioheadrule83]

Did the stellar sales of the Wii matter with regards to it's 3rd party software support? No.

To some extent, between 2006 and 2010, yes - it was well ahead in tie ratio and software dollars until then. It still has a respectible tie ratio.

Third parties didn't have confidence in it that's certainly true, and we are already seeing that may be the case for Wii U. Wii didn't get games it couldn't run obviously, and the same will be true of Wii U if the gap is too big. For me, if Wii U still gets a fair share of unique first and third party experiences debuting on it (like Wii Sports, SMG, NMH, Mad World, MH Tri etc) - I won't care too much personally.

If it has a four year span before going tepid, like the Wii, I'll already have another console anyway no doubt.

 

[Davey Cakes]

Totally agree with you about graphics (I think it was after the DC where I stopped being really impressed by graphics), though I am not much of a fan of the tablet! I'm more interested in what Nintendo does with their core game mechanics than anything.

Core game mechanics are great, but the tablet might grow on you. It makes for some really refreshing gameplay concepts. Nintendo Land alone sold me on its potential applications, at least in multiplayer games. The streaming is pretty neat too; I didn't realize the potential until I played the pad alone on my second floor while the Wii U was on the first floor.

Nintendo seems to split between traditional and non-traditional. They'll service both sides. The Wii was already a showcase for this. On one end you have Mario Galaxy, on the other, Wii Sports.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Absolutely, and the companies who take that route will be rewarded ten fold.

No More Heroes really set the world alight. Red Steel 2 as well. Lost Winds 2 certainly didn't experience cataclysmically poor sales, no sir. Sin & Punishment 2? Chart topper. A Boy and His Blob earned so much money everyone involved can retire!

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Please, tell me what Wii U software you have examined first hand.

I own Tekken Tag Tournament (which is a fine port from what I understand, I don't know) and Mario. I briefly played Nintendo Land (I bought a Basic unit). I don't know if I follow your point. Sure, a lot of the analysis I've seen is done by other people, but it can be verified. When I reference a Digital Foundry article, I think that's a little more substantive than referencing a buddy of mine who's worked on a game and assures me that everything's up to snuff.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

No no, it is quite factual. The reverse is true. Liking Dual Analog over IR aiming is a preference. Stating that IR aiming is superior to Dual Analog for First-Person Shooters is a fact. It is a mechanically superior control scheme.

No if's, and's, or buts about it.


Also, motion and IR aiming are two completely separate things. Surprised this far into this gen people still get them mixed up.

Movement is worse on the Wiimote/Nunchuk compared to a controller so overall it's debatable.

 

[SmokyDave]

The only thing I'm learning from this thread is that people still say 'could care less'. That shit makes no sense.

I've read a theory that suggests the phrase is deliberately sarcastic. It helps me sleep at night.

Wait... this a defense of the Vita now?

If you're referring to sales, there is no defense. They're abysmal.

 

[HAL_Laboratory]

That's not the message they've been sending for a year.

You're right, it's the message they've been sending for decades. It's no secret Nintendo makes their machines for Mario and Zelda. Doesn't mean they don't want 3rd party support, it's just not #1 on the list.

 

[moonbox]

The only thing I'm learning from this thread is that people still say 'could care less'. That shit makes no sense.

Indeed. It's so fucking retarded, honestly. It pisses me off to no end. It's just pure stupidity.

 

[Aeana]

Movement is worse on the Wiimote/Nunchuk compared to a controller so overall it's debatable.

In what way? You're using an analog stick regardless, and if the game you're playing has a small bounding box for the pointer, then it should essentially behave very close to a mouse. Earlier Wii shooters didn't have this, but it became more common to have a customizable bounding box which resulted in much tighter camera turning.

 

[Jak140]

Well at least for people who don't like the name, it looks like Nintendo dropped a Wii Deuce after all.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Yup. Do I care that it's (probably) the best selling smartphone? Nope. Do I get giddy when I see Unreal 3 games on the Retina screen? Yup.

You don't have to care but you're a smart guy so I know that you understand that the very reason you're getting all those great UE3 games on your iPhone is because the phone has sold so much.

Ask Blackberry users how many great game they're getting.

 

[GreggTheGrimReaper]

Haven't been reading the whole thread but if it's just for heat or power consumption wouldn't Nintendo be better off if they've opted for something like Tegra 3+ or a Snapdragon S4 Pro instead?

 

[Threi]

Movement is worse on the Wiimote/Nunchuk compared to a controller so overall it's debatable.

No it is not. Software developers impose limitations on Wii shooters (especially early ones, the later titles eventually made them adjustable) like slow turning speeds and large bounding boxes to get users accustomed to the new control scheme. It has nothing to do with any hardware limitations, like what dual analog has.


...this is horribly off topic btw

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Did the stellar sales of the Wii matter with regards to it's 3rd party software support? No.

That's only because there was such a yawning gulf between the Wii and two 'HD' platforms that presented legitimate cost-to-return concerns for games built around much higher capability, something that may come to bite Ninty in the ass for the next round of MS and Sony platforms, but not now against X360 and PS3. This time, there's very little to separate them, with some significant differences on Ninty's side this time (RAM, GamePad) despite the individual weakness of its CPU and higher price of its base hardware. There are fewer publishers around now and many are signalling a white flag on the traditional big third party AAA games that has typified this last generation...the same one that has spelled doom for more than dozens of them in the last few years. Flexibility of business models and pricing tiers coming from the platform holder, and cost of production will definitely factor more into this coming gen than specs ever did in ones gone by. This coming gen is not going to heavily resemble the current one, so, already, the rules have changed. Wii did not extend a hand to short-term expectations of capability and development investments already underway, but Wii U does. Ninty just doesn't want to aim higher at some nebulous and expensive target for specs that MS and Sony are perhaps looking at.

 

[Gahiggidy]

To the Wii U castigators...

What sacrifices would you have made to the system in order to have a faster CPU? A higher price? No Gamepad? Looking at just the basic sku, the ~$300 is going to just two things, the chip-set and the controller. No hard drive, pack in game, or even DVD licensing.

 

[Stulaw]

Wow this thread is going faster then Wii U CPU!


I'm here all night folks.

You used then instead of than.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[Interficium]

Absolutely, and the companies who take that route will be rewarded ten fold.

Just like they were with the Wii, right? Guys?? GUYS???

 

[Smiles and Cries]

The problem Nintendo has is their market aims. It seems to be a conscious choice.

To the enthusiast gamer, everything that's not as powerful as current technology allows is "gimped". It's a bit like an auto enthusiast who rails that a mass market consumer minivan is a piece of crap because somewhere in the world, there are Ferraris. It's true that the minivan is no Ferrari, so the enthusiast has a point - but he's also missing the point that the minivan's job is not to be a Ferrari. And in some ways, it's better... like cargo capacity, fuel efficiency, etc.

It's hard for me even with this news to see the Wii U's hardware as "Nintendo cheeps out on j00 suckers". Because Nintendo's goal was not to make a $500 console that was way more powerful than PS360 plus included an iPad. Again, their self-chosen path and problem is that they deal with the mass market. A $300 console (the base model) sounds like their absolute upper limit for MSRP, to not scare away the authentic mainstream audience. Within that price, their concept for the system included an expensive to develop, and not cheap to produce touch screen / motion sensing interface device.

Nintendo doesn't seem to have "gimped" on anything within the price range they had to remain within, considering the total components that make up the system. If the Xbox 360 had ha a cheaper CPU, it could have had more ram, for example. But there were specific priorities and they were followed. Wii U was designed with specific priorities and this is what we got.

The joke with the FUD being spread is that you still have ports like ACIII at launch, made in a rush, that effectively look and run about like the PS3 version of the same game. If people stopped and thought for a moment, they'd see that clearly, something in Nintendo's design strategy for the console is working. Otherwise that game would not exist on Wii U and if it did, never with that kind of port parity.

Edit: I would add that the most questionable thing in the entire matter IMO is Nintendo's very obvious entreaties to 3rd parties about Wii U being friendly towards them from a development and power standpoint. Obviously, working on the console involves some major strategic shifts and while that doesn't mean the hardware is bad, it probably does make Nintendo's official PR line sound like damage control. But then we have all those months and months of some 3rd parties saying the hardware is great, some griping it sucks, etc etc. Opinions, woohah!

I have been saying this for years, I fully understand Nintendo may live in their own world of Minivans vs Ferraris. But this may prove to be one of the stupidest moves Nintendo has ever made and by this I mean the current CPU.

I love my Wii U but if you don't feel cheated out of the promise it could have had with a viable level of power in the system that could at least support its OS and Features at a decent speeds without lock ups day one, you really don't like Nintendo much. This is a FAIL no matter how you spin it.

They don't have to be the oddball out every generation. You have fans that are no longer children, grow some balls and give them something they can play. I don't want to drive a minivan all my life just because Mario and Zelda Universe fit in the cargo space.

Before this summer my concern was IF the Wii U could get any support being so far behind the Next Xbox and Playstation but come launch you see clearly that the Wii U has much more to worry about forget keeping up with next generation hardware titles, can it even do current titles justice.

The 360/PS3 ports should not be struggling to match up no matter how new the hardware is for developers, it should have had enough wiggle room power so that the worst code would run better than 6-7 year old machines. This should be something they would want to do because it makes sense.

People will say these launch games are rushed and not coded for Wii U but what kind of 3rd Party support will they get in 2014 with this CPU issue? The only ones I can think of are those that cannot afford to make the transition to PS4/720. Meaning the Wii U is just getting by.

I never owned any other home console outside of Nintendo, Wii was a very hard 6 years because my gaming habits are changing. So I started playing games off Steam to get by.

I seriously have to buy the other boxes if I want to play any games beyond 2013. Keep my Wii U for Nintendo First Party games because there is no way in hell this Minivan Concept thing will run any PS4/720 titles.

Nintendo often proves skeptics wrong when they doubt Nintendo's understand of how to survive in this industry but if Wii U is not dead in 2 years, I will be asking what type of Voodoo shit does Iwata practice over there in Kyoto.

Let me get back to enjoying my launch games I got a huge backlog now :3

 

[SmokyDave]

You don't have to care but you're a smart guy so I know that you understand that the very reason you're getting all those great UE3 games on your iPhone is because the phone has sold so much.

Ask Blackberry users how many great game they're getting.

If the sexy UE3 goodness was piling up on the Blackberry, I'd buy one.

I suspect it's more to do with the viability of the hardware than the sales, but I'm happy to concede the point for the sake of conversation.

I'm not pretending sales are irrelevant, they aren't. Didn't really help the Wii when it comes to games that I personally care about though.

 

[Saint Gregory]

To the Wii U castigators...

What sacrifices would you have made to the system in order to have a faster CPU? A higher price? No Gamepad?

I can't believe that you asked this here.

If the sexy UE3 goodness was piling up on the Blackberry, I'd buy one.

I suspect it's more to do with the viability of the hardware than the sales, but I'm happy to concede the point for the sake of conversation.

I'm not pretending sales are irrelevant, they aren't. Didn't really help the Wii when it comes to games that I personally care about though.

Nope, but let's be really real here and just say that Nintendo could have built a system capable of rendering the Avatar sequels in realtime and still not get the necessary 3rd party support. Nothing is guaranteed so they took the route that worked best for their resources.

I'm not crazy about it but I bought the console even knowing that this was a possibility.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

In what way? You're using an analog stick regardless, and if the game you're playing has a small bounding box for the pointer, then it should essentially behave very close to a mouse. Earlier Wii shooters didn't have this, but it became more common to have a customizable bounding box which resulted in much tighter camera turning.

I haven't played any recent ones so that's probably it.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

You're right, it's the message they've been sending for decades. It's no secret Nintendo makes their machines for Mario and Zelda. Doesn't mean they don't want 3rd party support, it's just not #1 on the list.

They said several times that they wanted 3rd party support since is something they lacked on Wii and one of the main reasons the console died prematurely.

Not being #1 on the list is obvious, seeing the console and I doubt is even on the list.

To the Wii U castigators...

What sacrifices would you have made to the system in order to have a faster CPU? A higher price? No Gamepad? Looking at just the basic sku, the ~$300 is going to just two things, the chip-set and the controller. No hard drive, pack in game, or even DVD licensing.

No Gamepad, being able to play off the screen is cool but not worth the sacrifices in the hardware. Is even worst considering that's the Nintendo way of fighting against tablets on ppl houses, since I doubt ppl would use the Wii tablet for anything else except gaming since any other multimedia application is way better on a tablet instead of a bulky, low res and resisitive device.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Haven't been reading the whole thread but if it's just for heat or power consumption wouldn't Nintendo be better off if they've opted for something like Tegra 3+ or a Snapdragon S4 Pro instead?

It's for BC with Wii games too, not only heat/power consumption.

 

[richiek]

No More Heroes really set the world alight. Red Steel 2 as well. Lost Winds 2 certainly didn't experience cataclysmically poor sales, no sir. Sin & Punishment 2? Chart topper. A Boy and His Blob earned so much money everyone involved can retire!

ZombiU is getting postive word of mouth despite the mixed reviews and is the third largest community on Miiverse after Nintendo Land and New Super Mario Bros U. Also the community for COD Black Ops 2 is steadily growing as well.

 

[Diablos54]

Nintendo often proves skeptics wrong when they doubt Nintendo's understand of how to survive in this industry but if Wii U is not dead in 2 years, I will be asking what type of Voodoo shit does Iwata practice over there in Kyoto.

Um, you might as well ask now, cause that's not happening...

 

[Shion]

Did the stellar sales of the Wii matter with regards to it's 3rd party software support? No.

Wii got plenty of 3rd party support, where do you think all that shovelware came from?

 

[HAL_Laboratory]

I own Tekken Tag Tournament (which is a fine port from what I understand, I don't know) and Mario. I briefly played Nintendo Land (I bought a Basic unit). I don't know if I follow your point. Sure, a lot of the analysis I've seen is done by other people, but it can be verified. When I reference a Digital Foundry article, I think that's a little more substantive than referencing a buddy of mind who's worked on a game and assures me that everything's up to snuff.

The system has been out for two weeks. Has everyone forgotton about 360's RRoD issues? You guys act like Wii U is doomed.

 

[moonbox]

I've read a theory that suggests the phrase is deliberately sarcastic. It helps me sleep at night.


If you're referring to sales, there is no defense. They're abysmal.

I've read that theory, but the people who use the phrase go on to look up the rationality behind it after they've been criticised for using it to begin with. And they find this theory, and use it to justify their own usage of the phrase, despite the fact that prior to looking it up they only ever used the phrase out of ignorance, not sarcasm.

It will never be sarcasm, because it never was sarcasm, except when somebody criticised it.

It's just fucking stupid. Plain and simple. Fuck the fucking shit.

 

[Combichristoffersen]

Wii got plenty of 3rd party support, where do you think all that shovelware came from?

Ice cold.

 

[exmachina64]

The only thing I'm learning from this thread is that people still say 'could care less'. That shit makes no sense.

Unintentional corruption of "couldn't care less." Like when people say "doggy dog world."

 

[Barack Lesnar]

The system has been out for two weeks. Has everyone forgotton about 360's RRoD issues? You guys act like Wii U is doomed.

How is the RRoD debacle and this comparable? RRoD was fixable, this isn't.

 

[Gahiggidy]

I have been saying this for years, I fully understand Nintendo may live in their own world of Minivans vs Ferraris. But this may prove to be one of the stupidest moves Nintendo has ever made and by this I mean the current CPU.

I love my Wii U but if you don't feel cheated out of the promise it could have had with a viable level of power in the system that could at least support its OS and Features at a decent speeds without lock ups day one, you really don't like Nintendo much. This is a FAIL no matter how you spin it.

They don't have to be the oddball out every generation. You have fans that are no longer children, grow some balls and give them something they can play. I don't want to drive a minivan all my life just because Mario and Zelda Universe fit in the cargo space.

Before this summer my concern was IF the Wii U could get any support being so far behind the Next Xbox and Playstation but come launch you see clearly that the Wii U has much more to worry about forget keeping up with next generation hardware titles, can it even do current titles justice.

The 360/PS3 ports should not be struggling to match up no matter how new the hardware is for developers, it should have had enough wiggle room power so that the worst code would run better than 6-7 year old machines. This should be something they would want to do because it makes sense.

People will say these launch games are rushed and not coded for Wii U but what kind of 3rd Party support will they get in 2014 with this CPU issue? The only ones I can think of are those that cannot afford to make the transition to PS4/720. Meaning the Wii U is just getting by.

I never owned any other home console outside of Nintendo, Wii was a very hard 6 years because my gaming habits are changing. So I started playing games off Steam to get by.

I seriously have to buy the other boxes if I want to play any games beyond 2013. Keep my Wii U for Nintendo First Party games because there is no way in hell this Minivan Concept thing will run any PS4/720 titles.

Nintendo often proves skeptics wrong when they doubt Nintendo's understand of how to survive in this industry but if Wii U is not dead in 2 years, I will be asking what type of Voodoo shit does Iwata practice over there in Kyoto.

Let me get back to enjoying my launch games I got a huge backlog now :3

What would you have sacrificed?

 

[Amneisac]

Indeed. It's so fucking retarded, honestly. It pisses me off to no end. It's just pure stupidity.

A lot of people suspect that its origin stems from Yiddish-American people who are saying it sarcastically. Just imagine Woody Allen throwing up his hands and sarcastically saying, "I could care less!" I agree that in text it doesn't really translate, but that's what some people smarter than you or I suspect:

There’s a close link between the stress pattern of I could care less and the kind that appears in certain sarcastic or self-deprecatory phrases that are associated with the Yiddish heritage and (especially) New York Jewish speech. Perhaps the best known is I should be so lucky!, in which the real sense is often “I have no hope of being so lucky”, a closely similar stress pattern with the same sarcastic inversion of meaning. There’s no evidence to suggest that I could care less came directly from Yiddish, but the similarity is suggestive. There are other American expressions that have a similar sarcastic inversion of apparent sense, such as Tell me about it!, which usually means “Don’t tell me about it, because I know all about it already”. These may come from similar sources.

Taken from this site: http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-ico1.htm

I got my info. from Pinker's talk on NPR, but this guy summarizes the high points.

Let me edit to add (and be more topical) that both sides of this argument have logical points and while I wished as much as anyone that the WiiU would be more powerful, I still think that certain brave third parties and of course the first party Nintendo games will be able to capitalize on this unique opportunity to blend what's good about touch screen gaming and what sucks about it (lack of sticks). I don't think that the next leap in graphical technology is really necessary to make this a successful system. I honestly quit caring about the next big graphical advancement around the beginning of this generation. Of course I love my HD visuals, and I like things to be natively 1080p and 60fps, but lacking those attributes isn't a death sentence.

 

[HAL_Laboratory]

How is the RRoD debacle and this comparable? RRoD was fixable, this isn't.

What exactly needs to be fixed?

 

[Eusis]

I have to admit, I'm one of the ones who wanted Wii BC most and even I'm wondering if it was worth it. I guess if they had a decent account system it wouldn't, just get the VC games ported over and any WiiWare games that get updated can go onto the eShop.