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[Metal Gear?!]

People like to talk about Zelda but any possible thought the Wii U may have already surpassed it?

(500,000 polygon temple, 8,000 polygon Link, 12,000 polygons Gohma thing)


Pikmin Adventure (800,000 polygon level including gamepad, 30,000 polygons in characters and enemies on screen).

Those are estimates by the way.

Reflections double the polygon count

 

[BrettHD]

This is why the cpu in the Wii U is such a letdown - watch the Wii U chug along:

Wii U end of first mission of Black Ops 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd74NJG9YiU&feature=plcp

Xbox 360 end of same mission:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NEp_r7Ilus&feature=plcp

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Wii was their most successful console. It's only logical that they would follow the same strategy again. This shouldn't be a surprise.

I'd honestly wager they won't be changing from this line ever again. Every piece of Nintendo hardware will be from the Wii foundation. Always intentionally limiting hardware for both cheaper manufacturing and slower increases in development costs.

Fans of videogames (those that will play for Nintendo or 3rd party titles) will always have to buy more than one platform from here on out. I doubt WiiU will see a steady stream of ports from Durango or Orbis.

So if you want Nintendo games and the vast majority of 3rd party titles you will have to buy more than one platform. No ifs ands or buts. While the engines might scale that's no guarantee that game assets, AI routines, or physics will.

Ok, you have nothing to add. Thanks.

He's a confirmed dev.

That was his way of both alluding to him working at Ubi, and giving himself an out.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

More witty posts courtesy of Heavy everyone.

Funny how he threw a hissy fit at me and Diablos after we called him out for making posts that stir up shit.
You're an angel, Heavy.

seriously? drinky posted the same thing before mine, i just aped off him as a joke. why didn't you quote him too, btw? Way to get overly defensive for no reason

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Well, I've seen people state, "Lol, we still have posters who think that ports from Durango/Orbis will be possible"

or

"Wii'd again"

I'm expecting some crappy times when it comes to Western 3rd party, but not anywhere near the Wii.

I think they're obviously talking about AAA titles. In that case I wouldn't expect much in the way of third party support. But, that concession aside, I happily admit that not everything is or needs to be developed with a AAA-blockbuster budget that will sink the studio if it doesn't sell millions of copies.

 

[Xellos]

Isn't it running bad on the PS3 or am I wrong?

They both have low framerates in places, just seems to stay smoother more often on PS3. Noticeable, but not a huge difference. Certainly not a porting disaster or anything.

 

[JordanN]

Reflections double the polygon count

Really? In that case, I still see Zelda being less than a million polygons and the Pikmin mini game being more.

 

[Vagabundo]

I think they're obviously talking about AAA titles. In that case I wouldn't expect much in the way of third party support. But, that concession aside, I happily admit that not everything is or needs to be developed with a AAA-blockbuster budget that will sink the studio if it doesn't sell millions of copies.

We might see some smaller 3rd parties focus on the Wii U if dev costs are low. It will be an interesting few years in console land that's for sure.

 

[jackal27]

I'd honestly wager they won't be changing from this line ever again. Every piece of Nintendo hardware will be from the Wii foundation. Always intentionally limiting hardware for both cheaper manufacturing and slower increases in development costs.

Fans of videogames (those that will play for Nintendo or 3rd party titles) will always have to buy more than one platform from here on out. I doubt WiiU will see a steady stream of ports from Durango or Orbis.

So if you want Nintendo games and the vast majority of 3rd party titles you will have to buy more than one platform. No ifs ands or buts. While the engines might scale that's no guarantee that game assets, AI routines, or physics will.

I would't doubt this one bit. I think it's one of the reasons Nintendo always throws that line that they're not competing with Microsoft or Sony.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

The next Xbox and PlayStation are not "GPU-centric." There are pretty significant things happening with their processor architectures. And at least for Durango, it's not using off the shelf kit, contrary to what many GAF posters have insisted. Even more troublesome for the Wii U, they have much more dedicated GPGPU capabilities which aren't happening on the dedicated GPUs they're packing.

This is real info, folks. Not WUST speculation by dudes that think they're experts by reading B3D

 

[Pie and Beans]

People like to talk about Zelda but any possible thought the Wii U may have already surpassed it?

(500,000 polygon temple, 8,000 polygon Link, 12,000 polygons Gohma thing)


Pikmin Adventure (800,000 polygon level including gamepad, 30,000 polygons in characters and enemies on screen).

Those are estimates by the way.

From my experience of counting polygons in games.

What are you doing.

 

[Thrillhouse]

People like to talk about Zelda but any possible thought the Wii U may have already surpassed it?

(500,000 polygon temple, 8,000 polygon Link, 12,000 polygons Gohma thing)


Pikmin Adventure (800,000 polygon level including gamepad, 30,000 polygons in characters and enemies on screen).

Those are estimates by the way.

Those are like the worst estimates I've ever seen. For example, that Gohma thing has way more triangles than the temple.

 

[Projectjustice]

This is why the cpu in the Wii U is such a letdown - watch the Wii U chug along:

Wii U end of first mission of Black Ops 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd74NJG9YiU&feature=plcp

Xbox 360 end of same mission:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NEp_r7Ilus&feature=plcp

Its a pretty unfair comparison really. Xbox 360 has been out since 2005. Devs have had years to learn, optimize and squeeze every bit of juice out of the hardware. The same cant be said about Wii U. You cant measure what hardware can do with launch titles and rushed ports.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

When we see those zeldas and marios..we'll see..

 

[Rush2thestart]

This thread is just a shit show at this point.

 

[NBtoaster]

Pikmin Adventure (800,000 polygon level including gamepad, 30,000 polygons in characters and enemies on screen).

Those are estimates by the way.

How on earth would you get 800,000 polys by looking at that? Most of the geometry (the fences, blocks, plants and the enemy) have extremely simple silhouettes. The ground is completely flat too..

 

[lherre]

That was his way of both alluding to him working at Ubi, and giving himself an out.

haha, well this is not true at all so ...

I'm impressed by your skills at polycount ... I envy you.

 

[BlackJace]

seriously? drinky posted the same thing before mine, i just aped off him as a joke. why didn't you quote him too, btw? Way to get overly defensive for no reason

Drinky is a special case.

I don't care where you got your inspiration for your post. You said your piece, I responded.

It's just an observation I made based on our little-run in a while ago, nothing defensive about that

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Its a pretty unfair comparison really. Xbox 360 has been out since 2005. Devs have had years to learn, optimize and squeeze every bit of juice out of the hardware. The same cant be said about Wii U. You cant measure what hardware can do with launch titles and rushed ports.

Yeah. Just wait until 2019 when developers have long abandoned the PS3 and 360, and then I bet Wii U stuff will beat the living daylights out of Halo 4.

 

[XtremeXpider]

From my experience of counting polygons in games.

WTF!? How can you count polygons?

 

[Gahiggidy]

Those are like the worst estimates I've ever seen. For example, that Gohma thing has way more triangles than the temple.

Are you sure? There is a lot of detailed ornamentation in the closeup of the temple walls/statues.

 

[BlackJace]

I think they're obviously talking about AAA titles. In that case I wouldn't expect much in the way of third party support. But, that concession aside, I happily admit that not everything is or needs to be developed with a AAA-blockbuster budget that will sink the studio if it doesn't sell millions of copies.

Ah, that makes sense. The way some people were phrasing it threw me off.

 

[Refreshment.01]

There is still value to the discussion. No launch software was made on fully functional SDKs.

Ok Matt, but you judge results not potential. I don't know if you have checked my pre WiiU release posts. It's happening pretty much what i anticipated.

You got a Nintendo console with a very superficial hook (so far) that is also underpowered. This is not the Wii which provided the only venue to motion gaming, this thing is trying to satisfy an enterteiment necesity that has been served for years by an ample spectrum of products and at many price ranges. While also having less features and laging behind competitors in online infra structure.

Furthere more the machine doesn't have a strong Nintendo IP (save for the 2nd Mario 2d game in the year) yet and it's third party offerings fall behind of what the competition offers. And all of this at the highest market price.

So, the "let's wait and see" is pointless. Right now the machine is not compeiling save in the eyes of the fervent Nintendo followers, which anyway buys anything Nintendo puts out. For the discerning consumer Nintendo's proposition doesn't make any sense now.

Judge what you have, the belly doesn't fill up with promises, i rather feed on bread and water than from the promise of a juice steak some day in the future.


Made some amendments to my post.

 

[SRTtoZ]

This is why the cpu in the Wii U is such a letdown - watch the Wii U chug along:

Wii U end of first mission of Black Ops 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd74NJG9YiU&feature=plcp

Xbox 360 end of same mission:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NEp_r7Ilus&feature=plcp

oh god, dat frame loss.

 

[BrettHD]

Its a pretty unfair comparison really. Xbox 360 has been out since 2005. Devs have had years to learn, optimize and squeeze every bit of juice out of the hardware. The same cant be said about Wii U. You cant measure what hardware can do with launch titles and rushed ports.

Ha! I never expected the its not-fair-to-compare-2012-console-to-2005-console defense.
Oh wait yes I did - its as predictable as the sun rising in the east in Wii U threads.

 

[Projectjustice]

Yeah. Just wait until 2019 when developers have long abandoned the PS3 and 360, and then I bet Wii U stuff will beat the living daylights out of Halo 4.

This is why this thread has become shit.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

haha, well this is not true at all so ...

Hah!

Sorry I was just using my deductive skills to piece things together. Apparently I should not call myself Batman just yet.

 

[JordanN]

WTF!? How can you count polygons?

Huh? You ever heard of wireframes? The more dense a mesh appears (i.e, more rounded edges) the more polygons it has.

It's easy to tell if you examine alot of games spanning generations.

For example, N64 games usually had 3,000 polygons a frame. PSP could go as high as 50,000.

 

[tranciful]

From my experience of counting polygons in games.

lol

 

[Jacobi]

Its a pretty unfair comparison really. Xbox 360 has been out since 2005. Devs have had years to learn, optimize and squeeze every bit of juice out of the hardware. The same cant be said about Wii U. You cant measure what hardware can do with launch titles and rushed ports.

Blops 2 uses a shitty old engine. New hardware should be able to run circles around that.

 

[Teletraan1]

So I'm a fool for wanting a new snes? Lol

You got a new SNES. Underpowered CPU with better graphical effects. The only problem I see going forward is how to get those Super FX chips bolted on to the 25GB not bluray discs. Might explain the round edges.

 

[gryz]

Huh? You ever heard of wireframes? The more dense a mesh appears (i.e, more rounded edges) the more polygons it has.

It's easy to tell if you examine alot of games spanning generations.

For example, N64 games usually had 3,000 polygons a frame. PSP could go as high as 50,000.

dude you have no idea what you are talking about

 

[Projectjustice]

Ha! I never expected the its not-fair-to-compare-2012 console to 2005 console defense.
Oh wait yes I did - its as predictable as the sun rising in the east in Wii U threads.

You know the specs, you act like its a huge surprise that Wii U isnt cutting edge.

We all know this.

 

[ASIS]

I'd honestly wager they won't be changing from this line ever again. Every piece of Nintendo hardware will be from the Wii foundation. Always intentionally limiting hardware for both cheaper manufacturing and slower increases in development costs.

Fans of videogames (those that will play for Nintendo or 3rd party titles) will always have to buy more than one platform from here on out. I doubt WiiU will see a steady stream of ports from Durango or Orbis.

So if you want Nintendo games and the vast majority of 3rd party titles you will have to buy more than one platform. No ifs ands or buts. While the engines might scale that's no guarantee that game assets, AI routines, or physics will.

This is highly disappointing news, honestly. There's no going around it.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

This is why this thread has become shit.

Eh, I'm of course being mildly facetious. However, it's just hard to take seriously the argument that it's unfair to compare a game developed this year on hardware released this year with a game developed this year on hardware released seven years ago when the conclusion is that it's unfair to the former, and not the latter.

 

[JordanN]

dude you have no idea what you are talking about

Prove me wrong then.

How on earth would you get 800,000 polys by looking at that? Most of the geometry (the fences, blocks, plants and the enemy) have extremely simple silhouettes. The ground is completely flat too..

There's more to the level. Also remember I'm including the gamepad.

 

[SRTtoZ]

You know the specs, you act like its a huge surprise that Wii U isnt cutting edge.

We all know this.

Thats the point though. Now that we know the specs its more of a 'wow i cant believe nintendo chose these specs' instead of a 'lol those specs cant run this?'.

 

[BlackJace]

Nintendo is a fucking random company. I think they might decide to shift perspectives in 9th gen no matter how the 8th one goes.

 

[lwilliams3]

And this is a big achievement with 2012 hardware?

It apparently is when people are really overreacting to the CPU clockspeed. It is clocked low, but it is bit more powerful than it looks comparing it to xenon clock-to-clock.

People in the final spec thread figured it would be clocked low already, though this was a little lower than most thought, but not the lowest estimated. (Which was 1.1Ghz, 1.5x clockspeed of Broadway.) The GPU, on the otherhand, is a bit higher than some expected before Matt's hints.

 

[Reversed]

Good going on the cache implementation.

 

[shinra-bansho]

We're experiencing flat out shameful, incompetent design. Decade-old hardware in a primarily $350 box is not necessary or even particularly beneficial in order to secure an aggressive profit margin, and having power trade-offs with the 360/PS3 architectures ensures bad press and unhappy port-buyers from the beginning, when upgraded current gen ports were very much part of the launch strategy. Fils-Aime has to run laughably dishonest damage control on a daily basis as part of this catastrophic failure to produce a technologically viable system -- again, at such a premium price point.

No worries, though. I'm sure soccer moms worldwide, with their iPads and Nexus 7s sitting on the coffee table, will be enthralled by the unique selling point of a living room tethered, two hour battery life, PDA-era resistive touch screen tablet controller.

Ouch. Harsh.

The next Xbox and PlayStation are not "GPU-centric." There are pretty significant things happening with their processor architectures. And at least for Durango, it's not using off the shelf kit, contrary to what many GAF posters have insisted. Even more troublesome for the Wii U, they have much more dedicated GPGPU capabilities which aren't happening on the dedicated GPUs they're packing.

That doesn't sound like it bodes well for downports. It's interesting the conversation is now framed entirely in relation to the PS360, when the Wii U is theoretically supposed to be in competition with the next generation of Sony and Microsoft systems.

Which is why Nintendo went with what they did in the Wii U.

The Wii explosion of popularity showed them that Average Joe Consumer could care less about graphics/RAM/clock speed.

Average Joe Consumer cares about the end result even if they don't care about the numbers. Hardware improvement and consequently games that don't look possible previously have always been a driver of transition for the traditional console gaming audience.

Nintendo tapped into a market that didn't care about HD at the time with a disruptive technology. They appear to be banking on trying to recapture that expanded audience again with the tablet controller - however thus far they've shown little reason for the traditional audience to adopt unless one is a particular fan of Nintendo titles.

What would you have sacrificed?

Power draw restrictions, form factor restrictions, the need for Wii BC. These seem to be priority culprits alongside price that have resulted in the hardware we're seeing.

And for me personally, the GamePad, which I've yet to see compelling use for.

Prior to the Wii-U's launch and recent hardware discoveries, we had members who took issue with people saying the CPU wasn't based on (or related to in any way) Watson, the console was closer to the PS360 than the 720/PS4, that there was nothing special about the Zelda/Bird tech demos, and so on. The importance of hardware power in the Wii-U continued on when news hit about the first line of ports, with many people falling on the "lazy dev" bullshit excuse or the developers just don't wish to use to learn how to use the system correctly conspiracy theory.

However now, many people are reverting back to the whole power isn't that important, this is good because of dev costs, etc.

Oh good, I'm not losing my mind and memory - as that's been the general feeling I've been getting from these threads. But it's been said that this is what we expected all along now.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Blops 2 uses a shitty old engine. New hardware should be able to run circles around that.

That's an oversimplification.

I mean we're talking about something that might be effectively more powerful, but comes with a whole range of other limitations. If the intent isn't to increase the baseline, but instead hit the baseline you end up with a WiiU.

 

[Palette Swap]

We all know its rushed ports with an un-optimized launch console.

We don't. It's just the most acceptable narrative some people could come up with to cope with the cognitive dissonance created by the launch lineup performance compared to a year of "will wait for WiiU version".

In other words, lacing that kool aid with LSD.

 

[Projectjustice]

Eh, I'm of course being mildly facetious. However, it's just hard to take seriously the argument that it's unfair to compare a game developed this year on hardware released this year with a game developed this year on hardware released seven years ago when the conclusion is that it's unfair to the former, and not the latter.

Dunno if you noticed this, years dont matter. Wii U isnt cutting edge. It has more ram, better GPU and comparable CPU to current gen. Its whats under the hood and not the years. Everyone seems to forget about that Tablet controller.

If you want cutting Edge hardware that blows everything away, www.newegg.com is here for you.

 

[radioheadrule83]

Prove me wrong then.

As KageMaru accused me of not calling out fellow Nintendo fans, I'm going to do it now: please stop, for your own sake.

Even if you enjoy estimating poly counts or something, you can't seriously expect anyone to take numbers pulled from thin air seriously. And how could they prove you wrong if you most definitely can't prove yourself right?

 

[Gahiggidy]

Ha! I never expected the its not-fair-to-compare-2012-console-to-2005-console defense.
Oh wait yes I did - its as predictable as the sun rising in the east in Wii U threads.

What do you recommend?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Prove me wrong then.

There's nothing to prove wrong.

You guessed. There was no real rhyme or reasoning to your guesses. Therefore nothing to prove wrong.

 

[PrimeRib_]

Ok Matt, but you judge results not potential. I don't know if you have checked my pre WiiU release posts. It's happening pretty much what i anticipated.

You got a Nintendo console with a very superficial hook (so far) that is also underpowered. This is not the Wii which provided the only venue to motion gaming, this thing is trying to satisfy an enterteiment necesity that has been served for years by an ample spectrum of products and at many price ranges. While also having less features and laging behind competitors in online infra structure.

I think you're underestimating the full extent of those that purchased a Wii. Nintendo named this system the Wii U for a specific reason. Forgetting these niche audiences that currently own a Wii, and will probably hear about the "Wii U upgrade" is ignoring a large potential of future sales.

"Underpowered" is also a completely subjective term for those that play 2D Mario, Scribblenauts and NintendoLand and are content doing so. Just because it doesn't measure up to the anticipated next-gen systems doesn't mean a market doesn't exist for Nintendo HD gaming via a tablet controller.

 

[soulassssns]

Blops 2 uses a shitty old engine. New hardware should be able to run circles around that.

You havent learned much this gen.

 

[XtremeXpider]

Huh? You ever heard of wireframes? The more dense a mesh appears (i.e, more rounded edges) the more polygons it has.

It's easy to tell if you examine alot of games spanning generations.

For example, N64 games usually had 3,000 polygons a frame. PSP could go as high as 50,000.

Hahaha, LOL. Ok, can you post the wireframe version of the zelda image?

EDIT: Are you serious?