Syphon Filter
Member
no look what happened to nintendo for doing that.
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VGLeaks: First look as Durango XDK (always connected, kinect required, must install)
- Thread starter DieH@rd
- Start date
no look what happened to nintendo for doing that.
50% more CU's, 100% more ROPS, 50-200% more bandwidth depending on workload and data set size.
Baconsammy
Banned
So insignificant that your average consumer won't notice a thing most likely. Consumers notice services, games, convenience etc. Not minuscule power differences.
specialguy
Banned
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1721614&postcount=2377
the thing is, i think ms can win while being less powerful (they sort of already did with 360 this gen). but i dont think sony can.
Also, I think had Sony not gone for the late upgrade to 8GB, Durango still would have competed well with Orbis. It would have had way less flops but way more RAM, and I think those woulda roughly equaled out.
So despite allegedly planning to be less powerful, MS still woulda been fine, until the last second Orbis upgrade.
Deuterium
Member
+1000
One of the only concerns I have with the new PS4 is the controller. I much prefer the asymmetric analog stick layout of the Xbox 360 controller, which is (IMHO) just about perfection.
I never liked the Dualshock, because it made my hands cramp up (too small), as well as the symmetric analog sticks.
If the specs are accurate, the difference is significant. The ps4 would be noticeably better.
Syphon Filter
Member
can you make it more simple,dont get that.
specialguy
Banned
+1000 to your +1000.
The Xbox controller feeling so much better might be the biggest reason why Durango="day one" while PS4 is "wait and see" for me. The other probably being that I really like Gears of War games.
specialguy
Banned
But (ignoring rumored reservations, which can be changed later anyway)...
0% more CPU
0% more setup engines
0% more RAM quantity...
And the bandwidth numbers might be misleading since Durango has ESRAM to work around that. It's expensive and it's there for a reason. PS3 also has 2X the bandwidth of 360 this gen, doesn't matter.
Think Bayonetta 360 vs Bayonetta PS3 difference, but reversed and applicable to most multiplatform games.
I've had issues with every DS controller so far, but the ps4 controller actually looks like a huge improvement.
It's looking like the PS4 will have a decent amount of extra power, basically.
Compare two identical, fast enough PC's with same amount of memory and gaming performance boils down to difference in video cards.
ESRAM is only 32MB, so it'll only really be useful for small data sets. Also PS3 does not have 2X the bandwidth of 360, it's two separate memory pools and you can't add them up like that.
Technically? We don't know. MS hasn't announced the console yet.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I'd say consumers probably can notice a difference. The power numbers indicate that there should be a decent advantage to PS4.
And even if a lot of consumers don't, the hardcore that latch on to minute differences may lap up PS4 which has a cascading momentum effect with all their friends.
The problem for Microsoft is this -- can they have a significant advantage on services and convenience while offering a lesser console for the core? Given what we know about PS4 so far, I doubt it. Sony has been very progressive with ease of use and social features. And that's without an "Xbox Live" paywall.
PS4 seems to be the entire package, so Microsoft must be gambling on Kinect 2.0 being the next-big thing because that's really the only major differentiator I see that Microsoft has to play.
specialguy
Banned
true i suppose. but again, setup engines same, triangles throughput same, etc.
go look at 7770 (durango) vs 7850 (orbis) benches. same game same settings might be say, 23 fps vs 35 or something like that. big, but somehow not ginormous,
yes you can, more or less. since ps3 can and does texture from xdr. the ps3 gpu gets fed with ~2x the main bandwidth the 360 gpu does.
But the 360 has 10MB of EDRAM...turns out to be pretty important...
Like I said, it's not there for nothing, it's expensive. Acting like it doesn't exist is silly.
At the moment, roughly 40%+ more powerful. But it's hard to quantify how much of an advantage 8GB of GDDR5 might have over 8GB of DDR + 32mb ESRAM. But provided Microsoft doesn't make any radical changes to the hardware from the rumours on announcement, later on in the console life cycle, the differences will definitely be apparent. I reckon the difference of 1080p vs 720p, 60fps vs 30fps (or 40fps+ if it isn't locked), or more IQ options, AA, better kinds of AA, AF, AO, SSAO etc etc.
Guess we'll have to wait and see, but launch titles wise I'm not expecting many differences.
Don't count your chickens before they hatch.
Now, while you're at it, look at benches of the Nvidia Geforce 650M with DDR3, vs the 650/660M with GDDR5. Not that it's directly analogous (ie ESRam), but... it's not insignificant either.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
This is what I'm expecting between the two. Of course you'll probably see more and more differences as the console cycle goes on, I think. But at first probably more framerate, AA, pixels.
specialguy
Banned
Yeah, it isn't. Because of ESRAM as mentioned.
Also, the reference ~1.2 TF 7770 has 72GB/s stock from AMD with GDDR5 on a 128 bit bus. Only a little more than Durango's 68 GB/s main bandwidth alone DDR3 256 bit bus. So I dont think it'll be too starved. Just the name GDDR5 doesn't mean anything. You could have GDDR5/128 bit bus that provided less bandwidth than DDR3/256 bus theoretically.
I know you're a Wii U guy, the Durango's setup strikes me as perfect for Nintendo. It should be exceedingly cheap. DDR3 is cheap as dirt. Depending, the ESRAM on 28nm could be quite tiny. As are Jaguar CPU's. Whole setup seems very cost effective, while being quite powerful compared to last gen.
They out Nintendo'd Nintendo for sure. And, the Wii U totally sold out for backwards compatibility, which is imo useless as a marketplace selling point.
That's about 50% faster and I'd say it's pretty significant.
Brad Grenz
Member
Yeah, look at that, it's only 50% faster! Hey, you drive your car 60mph, and I'll go 90 and we'll see who gets to the end of the track first.
Yeah, when you include the embedded memory bandwidth in the 360 it has vastly more than the PS3, even combining busses. Of course, when you do the same for Durango and PS4, PS4 still has more memory bandwidth. Durango's bandwidth is both harder to use effectively, and lesser in total. Obviously no embedded memory would be a disaster, but the PS4 solution is emphatically better.
Deuterium
Member
I, for one, will be very VERY suprised if the NextBox's official specs will be the same as the information provided by VGLeaks.
I just don't see MS conceding a 40% (give or take) performance advantage to the PS4.
Yes, they are all about the living room "set top box"...but I truly feel they will not allow Sony to move the goal post.
I expect there will be some good surprises (in terms of specs and power) when they officially announce.
I just don't see MS conceding a 40% (give or take) performance advantage to the PS4.
Yes, they are all about the living room "set top box"...but I truly feel they will not allow Sony to move the goal post.
I expect there will be some good surprises (in terms of specs and power) when they officially announce.
It's likely that Durango talk is little to non-existant at GDC and one of the reasons some of the journos are disappointed.
Beerman462
Member
I can't wait till the XBox3 reveal. From what I've seen so far though...
That is not how things work. You are assuming the road ahead is a straight drag. The 60MPH car might have the faster acceleration and comes out of turns faster and you are racing on a very curvy track.
Anyhow not sure why I am replying to your post as you clearly want to paint a picture you like to your argument.
Also the only people who are pissed or sad due to the lack of talk are either the forum going public or the so called journalists.
I can't wait till the XBox3 reveal. From what I've seen so far though...
Of course "seen". LOL
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Even hardcore still not that care about raw power
Maybe GAFcore you mean?
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Come on, that's dishonest at best. Please don't believe that. Bayonetta performed that way because it wasn't a development priority and, I believe, farmed off to a much less capable team that didn't do a rather good job coding for the system. Durango will never be anywhere near that complicated to program for, hence you don't have to be in constant fear that multiplatform games would ever run so horribly on the next Xbox. The PS4 is simpler to code for, but the coding difficulty between the PS4 and Durango is much, much tinier than the one between the Xbox 360 and the PS3.
Durango also has 8GB of unified memory, and the ESRAM is no significant challenge for developers who are already quite familiar with the use of EDRAM on the 360. The advantage for ESRAM is its low latency, which Microsoft suggested in that vgleaks information, will be key to maintaining peak ROP performance, which in turn I believe will be rather beneficial especially when developers attempt to target 1080p on Durango. Aside from that, ESRAM is also a lot more flexible than the EDRAM on the Xbox 360, so developers will be able to do much more with it by comparison. I don't think every developer was a fan mostly due to the limitations, but for those that were, I think they really liked it. Honestly, by comparison to the Xbox 360, Durango actually looks to be easier to code for, not more difficult. This becomes further true when you consider that the CPU is x86 and out of order execution. The move engines are useful and hardly look as if they will somehow add tremendous complexity to the mix.
The PS4, based on the specs we've seen, should have the edge power wise, but I think we have to be very careful about exaggerating Durango's supposed power deficit, which is nowhere nearly as big as some would have everyone believe.
Not exactly true. It's merely different. It's not so much more difficult where this somehow becomes a serious enough PS4 advantage during development that will hurt games on Durango. Give developers a bit more credit. They know how to deal with different approaches. Durango is easier to develop for than the Xbox 360, which was a console that was already easy to develop for. And, as an example, despite the amount of bandwidth that the 360 had, there was, in reality, quite a bit less bandwidth going to the GPU than what the theoretical limits would imply. Even the PS4 memory bandwidth total argument is one I don't entirely think is worthy of this automatic performance win for the simple reason that we have no idea how the memory system of the console might operate under a typical load. And technically, we don't have a 100% accurate idea of how things might shake out on Durango either, since the memory example provided through vgleaks is one that was cautioned to be purely predictions, and not based on actual measured numbers. the 6GB/s advantage provided by the PS4 memory system isn't big enough to be as significant as some people are making it out to be, particularly when we have no idea how each console's memory system feeds each respective console under a typical game load. And, no I'm not combining memory bandwidths on Durango, I'm simply restating what was already stated in the vgleaks information, that the Durango GPU can simultaneously access both the memory bandwidth available to the DDR3, and the memory bandwidth available to the ESRAM.
specialguy
Banned
And emphatically more expensive (though I know many here try to have their cake and eat it too, and somehow claim it's also/will be cheaper)
PS4 would have relatively less BW if you add them up. I'm pretty sure MS isn't going out and equipping Durango with less BW than the 8 year old 360 as you imply. The 256 GB/s internal in 360 EDRAM was because 360 GPU didn't have compression, or some other technical reason I dont get. 102 GB/s in Durango will be fine. Also, the ESRAM in Durango is much more flexible, and can possibly be used as a performance enhancer as well.
Also, you say yourself Durango GPU is 50% less. It needs much less BW than Orbis, then.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Doubt about that,720 should be fine with 1080p even with this rumored spec
specialguy
Banned
People only claim to not care about power. In core console gaming, it's actually really important.
One need look no further than Wii U to see.
I'm going by the 50% power deficit in PC benchmarks, and I'd say Bayonetta PS3 vs 360 difference is as if they were both programmed by the same team but as if the 360 version was programmed for a platform that was 50% faster. It was just for making the laymen understand and have nothing to do with ease of development or how Bayonetta PS3 was a shitty port, etc. It was just an attempt to explain 50% power difference in a way non-tech people would understand.
Baconsammy
Banned
Something tells me they have way more than Kinect to throw at Sony, and Sony knows it. Sony just got its ass handed to them this gen by both of their competitors, and for them to look at the current landscape once again and conclude "hey power is what we want to bank on" is perplexing. Especially given the Vita disaster, the tablet upswing and the huge number of large dev house closings. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Sony definitely hasnt earned any benefit of the doubt.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
WiiU's problem should be not enough games
Plus 720's power should be "good enough",it's not like only GC->Wii jump
Wii U's problem is no one knows what it actually is.
Baconsammy
Banned
Wii U's issues are many. A confusing name. The fact that its predecessor died years ago, causing many of its core gamers to jump ship to 360/PS3 and the casuals have all moved on to better devices with cheaper games. Horrendous third party support. Terrible first party support so far, and a marketing campaign that was a no-show. The fact that its power is on par with 8 year old consoles certainly doesn't help matters.
That most certainly is also a real problem.
Maximilian Kolbe
Member
Well,can't disagree that
It's much easier for one company to paint a prettier picture when the other one hasn't announced anything. If the roles were reversed, Microsoft would have done the same.
Beerman462
Member
The PS4 is unarguably more powerful then the 720 based on the information we have at the moment.
The PS4 and 720 are equally easy to program for.
Within the 2nd and 3rd year year of the next gen I expect a dramatic difference in quality between the PS4 and 720.
The PS4 and 720 are equally easy to program for.
Within the 2nd and 3rd year year of the next gen I expect a dramatic difference in quality between the PS4 and 720.
Because you have "seen" things right?
Beerman462
Member
I've "seen" the leaks. The same leaks everyone else has. That's why I said from what we have seen so far.
Looking at leaked specs and looking at both games running is 2 different things though.
Dude, you haven't even seen the Playstation 4, let alone the Durango.
Beerman462
Member
That's true, but we have two very similar architectures. One of which has a more powerful GPU and higher overall bandwidth to feed that GPU. From what we know they have identicle CPUs and based on that information the PS4 is significantly more powerful. That's all I'm saying.
The plastic shell?
Except that the PS4 is not banking on exotic power in the same way as the PS2/PS3, it's just that unusually Microsoft is coming in to this next gen relatively under powered, especially compared to console generational jumps of the past. Neither console is using super high end parts (with the exception of PS4's 8GB GDDR5), it's just the PS4 is being a little bit more bold within the confines of (I'd imagine) a this time more affordable budget.
The Nextbox is probably going for a cheaper entry point, or coming in with lesser specs to offset the costs of including Kinect 2 with each console.
ProfessorMoran
Member
That problem is going to be exacerbated when it goes from hoping for PS3/360 ports to hoping for PS4/720 downports.
My statement was playing to the fact that it is entirely to early to pass judgment.