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[Arc Christelle]

OP, (at least in 'Murica) anything related to a human instinct like sex (appeal) is appalling. But guns, death, and extreme gore, are perfectly ok.

Ha.

Why do I have to put the criticism of pandering aside? You asked why people have something against sex appeal. And that's one of the biggest reasons. A lot of the time sex appeal in games doesn't even make sense. But they put it in there because gamers are primarily young males.

Because when I initially made this thread, it was more directed about single characters that might have been developed for sex appeal, as opposed to the other characters present. And I'm really starting to wonder, what modern games do people find went overboard with unnecessary "Sexualized" characters. Like the point where it's always in your face 24/7.

Outside of obvious stuff like Senran Kagura, DOA, SC, Onechanbara etc. Like people are making arguments that's it's as if it's really the only character design there for women.

It almost feels like some people just rather not have any character like that at all. But then there's cries of "well-written" and I'm feeling like, "What the hell you mean by that?" Because a lot of characters could be considered well-written by different views, and are some people really willing to know the back story of a female character with a DD cup. It's getting to the point where the thread is really outta control, and no one really has the answers, and constant nitpicking. lol I'm about to abandon my own thread.

 

[Daymos]

I think women are scared of other women who are far more attractive than they are, especially in a non-realistic environment where they couldn't possibly compete.

With men you've got muscles, you've got money, you've got confidence.. there's a list of things you can work on to be 'attractive' but when a woman tries to attract a man it's pretty much all just in the way she looks. From my experience they generally just stand there looking pretty and dare us to come up to them and look like fools.

So I think thats why there's an uproar every time theres a sexy woman in a video game. Its the mothers and the sisters.. and often also their boyfriends/husbands who are forced in to complaining about it at knife point. Because 'looks dont matter' ..as long as the woman saying that statement is the sexiest in the room...

 

[Haunted]

I love well-designed characters with class and sex appeal.

I think characters that are sexualised and objectified to pander to a certain demographic take away screen time from other characters who are not intended for that purpose, or other intelligent/complex characterisation instead. It's just so cynical and transparent, there's never a lot of depth there (there doesn't need to be - character exists to show off tits and ass, not to be interesting or thought-provoking).

So when people ask for more male objectification to counteract the current female sexualisation of characters, it always reads to me like they want to bring down the level of characterisation. We should attempt to raise the overall level, not lower it.

Wait whos half naked in final fantasy now?

 

[Coreda]

Because they design it around a 13-year old boy's concept of sexy.

The tl;dr version in a nutshell.

It's still not clear from the OP what they consider 'sex appeal', it seems they'd like to avoid giving specific examples. Showing some skin can most definitely be sexy and even appropriate for some characters, but objectifying a female character for no other reason than to pander to male interests lessens my respect/believability in the character.

I laugh a little whenever I see the occassional post on GAF like 'watz wrong with boobies mang?'. Nothing is wrong with boobies, but don't strip the character of all other value than a couple of assets. Make more mature female characters, who have agency and character, who happen to be the type to like wearing more revealing outfits from time to time. That is sexy to me.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Because when I initially made this thread, it was more directed about single characters that might have been developed for sex appeal, as opposed to the other characters present. And I'm really starting to wonder, what modern games do people find went overboard with unnecessary "Sexualized" characters. Like the point where it's always in your face 24/7.

Outside of obvious stuff like Senran Kagura, DOA, SC, Onechanbara etc. Like people are making arguments that's it's as if it's really the only character design there for women.

It almost feels like some people just rather not have any character like that at all. But then there's cries of "well-written" and I'm feeling like, "What the hell you mean by that?" Because a lot of characters could be considered well-written by different views, and are some people really willing to know the back story of a female character with a DD cup. It's getting to the point where the thread is really outta control, and no one really has the answers, and constant nitpicking. lol I'm about to abandon my own thread.

You're never going to get a consensus in a GAF thread about things like this. You are going to get as many disparate and opposite views on the subject as posters. It's the nature of the medium, and another testament to how subjective our perspective is on almost any piece or form of art.

Also, do not make the mistake of placing your opposition all into a single cup and expecting them all to agree.

 

[toddhunter]

I think women are scared of other women who are far more attractive than they are, especially in a non-realistic environment where they couldn't possibly compete.

With men you've got muscles, you've got money, you've got confidence.. there's a list of things you can work on to be 'attractive' but when a woman tries to attract a man it's pretty much all just in the way she looks. From my experience they generally just stand there looking pretty and dare us to come up to them and look like fools.

So I think thats why there's an uproar every time theres a sexy woman in a video game. Its the mothers and the sisters.. and often also their boyfriends/husbands who are forced in to complaining about it at knife point. Because 'looks dont matter' ..as long as the woman saying that statement is the sexiest in the room...

I ... don't know where to start.


For my part, I enjoy sexualised characters in the games I play. However I want others to enjoy the games as well, and I realise that there are a finite number of games of each type being made. So in this day and age I'm all in favour of as much diversity as possible.

 

[Pau]

I think women are scared of other women who are far more attractive than they are, especially in a non-realistic environment where they couldn't possibly compete.

With men you've got muscles, you've got money, you've got confidence.. there's a list of things you can work on to be 'attractive' but when a woman tries to attract a man it's pretty much all just in the way she looks. From my experience they generally just stand there looking pretty and dare us to come up to them and look like fools.

So I think thats why there's an uproar every time theres a sexy woman in a video game. Its the mothers and the sisters.. and often also their boyfriends/husbands who are forced in to complaining about it at knife point. Because 'looks dont matter' ..as long as the woman saying that statement is the sexiest in the room...

I want to believe this post is a joke, but GAF has disappointed me in the past.

 

[Esura]

And I think this is a key point here: I think your self-interest is far less important than diversifying the culture, options and innovation in video games, and as such opening the medium up to a wider variety of voices. It's frank but true. I simply don't care about your desire for sexy characters.

In that case, then why would he care about your desire for diversity in video games?

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

In that case, then why would he care about your desire for diversity in video games?

Later in the thread I outlined why I think diversity is beneficial to the medium beyond just a single point of self-interest.

 

[Gintoki313]

I'm only bothered when it's the game's major selling point (or one of them).

Edit: And it depends on the game.

This. I don't mind a little sex appeal, but just as long as the whole game doesn't revolve around it and it's not the main selling point.

The only pass I give is to Senran Kagura. The game is so darn fun that I don't mind all the appeal everywhere.

 

[Haunted]

these juniors are killing me

 

[toddhunter]

Just on lightning returns, how do people feel about the costume approach? For example you can certainly change the tone of what is going on based on her outfit.

If at the start of MGS5 you had an option for a fully clothed Quiet or the current model, would that be a better approach?

 

[The Technomancer]

I mean, I don't think anyone is arguing for the complete smiting of all sexual pandering in video games. If currently 85% of the mainstream industry is dedicated to pandering to the young male demographic (in various ways) and we manage to get that number down to like...40% by causing more diversity yeah sorry, I'm not losing sleep over that. That's still an assload of games. This isn't taking your candy, this is asking you to share it.

Maybe I'm not upset about this push for diversity because I've never really been pandered to, at least in this medium, so I'm used to only getting a few games that are aimed at my sensibilities. And you're still going to be getting a lot more then I get, I guarantee that (only so many devs are ever going to be interested in making low budget PC puzzle games of mind warping challenge or hardcore turn based strategy RPGs). I'm not bitter about that. But please don't complain to me how there will be "less" games aimed at you.

 

[True Underdog]

Sexy characters are ok. Hell, even the scantily clad ones are ok if they exist in a game where there is a variety.

What isn't ok is when a character's description can be broken down to, "this character's defining trait is their sex appeal."

It's just cheap and boring.

 

[SolidSnakex]

The tl;dr version in a nutshell.

No, that's not it. I would've thought this 13/14 year old old stuff would've stopped when Jason Schreier got blown up over it when he accused Kamitani of being a 14 year old. It does absolutely nothing for these discussions.

 

[Arc Christelle]

You're never going to get a consensus in a GAF thread about things like this. You are going to get as many disparate and opposite views on the subject as posters. It's the nature of the medium, and another testament to how subjective our perspective is on almost any piece or form of art.

Also, do not make the mistake of placing your opposition all into a single cup and expecting them all to agree.

This is true and I don't, but I also feel that perhaps I should blame myself for not making it clear about those things that are considered sexy.

I always hear the same rant, and I know it was a bigger thing in the 90's to the first decade, but it's nowhere near as rampant today. Yet you still get those arguments about it being pushed into everything. I really wonder do we give credit to the other options and characters available or just focus all of our attention on one titillating character and declare it unbearable.

I'm just starting to wonder are characters in game designs really that flooded with sex fantasies. As a character artist, I understand the intent to make a character with sex appeal and how to go about doing it, (despite not everything clicks with everybody) but it feels like there are people who blow the horn on anything that might have sex appeal or sexual content.

So you start to ask, what is necessary sex appeal to those people? What is a good design and why? Which many never tried to argue. It's interesting, but it's very telling of people.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

Just on lightning returns, how do people feel about the costume approach? For example you can certainly change the tone of what is going on based on her outfit.

If at the start of MGS5 you had an option for a fully clothed Quiet or the current model, would that be a better approach?

That's an interesting set of questions to ask. Lightning is the perfect example of bad handling of women. Her characterization has become malleable, changeable to the will of the developers and the costumes they design. She's not a character, she's a Barbie doll to be dressed up.

When there was an initial discussion about Quiet in MGS5, I was pretty interested because Kojima actually had things to say for why he designed her the way he did. Her character designed her own method of expression, essentially. That's exactly what I want to see more of. I would not change her outfit because it is a part of her character as much as Lightning's latest stupid costume isn't.

 

[Esura]

Later in the thread I outlined why I think diversity is beneficial to the medium beyond just a single point of self-interest.

I didn't read that post yet and I'll check back a few pages for it, however I do want to say that diversity at the cost of pre-existing preferences in the medium isn't really diversity. That single point of self-interest is just as valid as any other want or need in the medium.

 

[The Technomancer]

I didn't read that post yet and I'll check back a few pages for it, however I do want to say that diversity at the cost of pre-existing preferences in the medium isn't really diversity. That single point of self-interest is just as valid as any other want or need in the medium.

Er, what? Diversity doesn't mean eradicating a point, it just means that that point will decrease in prominence as other points of interest arise. That may mean that *gasp* yes some current devs may change how they approach things.

Sorry but yes, giving you less of something so that other people can have some of that thing does increase diversity.

 

[antitrop]

I always blame the excessive sexual repression I see around me on the puritanical roots of the United States, it's my least favorite thing about living in this country. I believe the aesthetic beauty of the human body is something to be celebrated in all of its forms.

 

[sonicmj1]

Once again this is where I guess I differ.

I haven't had a game ruined for me by an artstyle I didn't like but I have had it ruined by shitty cameras or shitty controls. Those kinda things are quantifiable to me. That doesn't come down to taste. A camera is either bad or not. Something is either broken or not. But music (outside of of some Nocture as shit), artstyle and such is in the eye of the beholder. Its fine to put that in a review that you don't like the designs and that the music is bad or somehting...that's cool but for that part of your criticism I can put that aside if that doesn't apply to me and just look at the parts I can't judge without playing the game.

That is just how I look at things. There are somethings I see as universal and some things that are up to taste. The latter I see as artistic choices most of the time and the former are things that can be done perfectly so to speak. Asking someone to change their artistic choices to appease you is shitty. Asking someone to fix their shitty camera and other broken aspects is less so.

I could be wrong. I never claim that my point of view is absolute. But that's where I am coming from.

So I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this then

If you don't care much about aesthetics, why would you care if people complain about them? Any changes made as a result won't affect your enjoyment of the game, after all.

I don't care all that much about technical graphics stuff. I have a very hard time spotting it. And while I guess I've occasionally made a dig or two at people who find 30 FPS to be completely impossible to deal with in all cases, they're allowed to make whatever complaints they want. If they get their way, they'll be happier and I'll feel the same either way.

So I'm not sure why you're fighting against people caring about something that doesn't matter to you. If it doesn't matter to you, then how does their criticism harm you?

 

[Mik317]

I mean, I don't think anyone is arguing for the complete smiting of all sexual pandering in video games. If currently 85% of the mainstream industry is dedicated to pandering to the young male demographic (in various ways) and we manage to get that number down to like...40% by causing more diversity yeah sorry, I'm not losing sleep over that. That's still an assload of games. This isn't taking your candy, this is asking you to share it.

Maybe I'm not upset about this push for diversity because I've never really been pandered to, at least in this medium, so I'm used to only getting a few games that are aimed at my sensibilities. And you're still going to be getting a lot more then I get, I guarantee that (only so many devs are ever going to be interested in making low budget PC puzzle games of mind warping challenge or hardcore turn based strategy RPGs). I'm not bitter about that. But please don't complain to me how there will be "less" games aimed at you.

That isn't exactly diversity.

Because someone is getting fucked by the downgrade.

So someone who may like something like Soul calibur's level of T&A but be turned off by Senran Kagura's level of T&A, but their Soul Calibur is the one being taken away so the devs can focus on this mythical all encompassing game. That isn't cool.

It also isn;t as bad many here think. I think many act as if the whole industry is full of Senran Kagura's and Neptunia's when it's not. Those games are niche, they are actually the minority. There should be more games for the groups who aren't getting pandered too yes...but not at the behest of others because it is actually those nice games that will be first on the chopping block and they won't exactly have other games to play because theirs will be gone due to some wild goose chase at diversity. Diversity doesn't mean you get less of the things we have, it means we get more of the things we don't.

 

[Coreda]

No, that's not it. I would've thought this 13/14 year old old stuff would've stopped when Jason Schreier got blown up over it when he accused Kamitani of being a 14 year old. It does absolutely nothing for these discussions.

I was not aware this when I quoted the post, and it has little to do with the rest of my post. Seems the accusation was about Dragon's Crown, which from all I've seen seems fine (love the art style and every character is ridiculously over-the-top).

 

[petethepanda]

Sexy is fine, but there's a line between sexy and something I'd be embarrassed to be seen playing. Now that gaming is much more mainstream than it used to be, some things that used to be accepted as normal have more of a spotlight shining on them.

 

[The Technomancer]

That isn't exactly diversity.

Because someone is getting fucked by the downgrade.

So someone who may like something like Soul calibur's level of T&A but be turned off by Senran Kagura's level of T&A, but their Soul Calibur is the one being taken away so the devs can focus on this mythical all encompassing game. That isn't cool.

It also isn;t as bad many here think. I think many act as if the whole industry is full of Senran Kagura's and Neptunia's when it's not. Those games are niche, they are actually the minority. There should be more games for the groups who aren't getting pandered too yes...but not at the behest of others because it is actually those nice games that will be first on the chopping block and they won't exactly have other games to play because theirs will be gone due to some wild goose chase at diversity. Diversity doesn't mean you get less of the things we have, it means we get more of the things we don't.

It is diversity. You don't like the way its being brought about, and I respect that, but its decreasing the homogenization of the industry. Same math as affirmative action: the schools aren't necessarily letting in more students, so yeah, some white kids like me get shafted sometimes.

 

[hardcastlemccormick]

I didn't read that post yet and I'll check back a few pages for it, however I do want to say that diversity at the cost of pre-existing preferences in the medium isn't really diversity. That single point of self-interest is just as valid as any other want or need in the medium.

My initial point of that post was that I wanted to highlight such a view was just one point of self-interest, and that to me seemed incredibly myopic, because it gives no reason for anyone else to defend it. It wasn't the argument as much as the presentation. "I got mine" isn't necessarily the greatest way to talk about your preferences, at least when talking about a medium in a more abstract form.

I encourage you to read my other posts on Page 4 (if you read at 100 posts per page), because I think it explains what you're asking in greater detail.

 

[Mik317]

If you don't care much about aesthetics, why would you care if people complain about them? Any changes made as a result won't affect your enjoyment of the game, after all.

I don't care all that much about technical graphics stuff. I have a very hard time spotting it. And while I guess I've occasionally made a dig or two at people who find 30 FPS to be completely impossible to deal with in all cases, they're allowed to make whatever complaints they want. If they get their way, they'll be happier and I'll feel the same either way.

So I'm not sure why you're fighting against people caring about something that doesn't matter to you. If it doesn't matter to you, then how does their criticism harm you?

Touche.

 

[televator]

They gave Elizabeth more sex appeal in Bioshock Infinite's DLC...

...but it goes well within the context of the game. She isn't running around in her undies and her design doesn't clash with the game's setting, but that wouldn't be the only way to mess up a character. Personality is another way....

 

[Winterfang]

These kind of topics pop up every once in a while and always it's full of disrespect and condescension. Like the other person opinion shouldn't be debated but rather mocked for being stupid. Happens on both sides always.

 

[sleepykyo]

Sexy is fine.

Classy is better.

People can make clothes look good. Art design needs to focus less on showing skin, and developing a character to match with the outfit that they wear.

Case in point: look at SNK fighting games. Beautiful, attractive women, decorated in classy and tasteful clothing.

http://penny-arcade.com/report/arti...oves-online-play-doesnt-improve-casual-racism

 

[The Technomancer]

Touche.

Its more then just touche. I believe that you wrote the original post in good faith because yeah, a lot of people don't actually acknowledge just how much aesthetics can matter to the experience in gaming. But underneath yeah, we do basically all care about what's being represented and how its being represented

 

[shaowebb]

Sexy is fine if it goes with the aesthetic of the game. If its meant to be something like a TopCow comic in art or something then expect sexy. If its meant to be a realistic military game then it shouldn't have bikini soldiers. Simple as that. Design for the visual and story theme.

 

[Kokonoe]

Honestly, it adds nothing for me. Anytime I see any kind of male or female fanservice most of the time I'm utterly disgusted because the idea behind it feels like primitive mentality (or lack of). I play video games for gameplay, story, music, etc. However, I don't play them to get 'turned on' or for sexual gratification and I think it's honestly pathetic how much fanservice is in all media these days. I can't simply enjoy a simple show or movie without the fanservice scenes designed for horny teenagers in mind. I don't have an issue that a character is 'pretty', or whatever you want to call it, but I don't get all psyched when I see people are naked in a video game or show.

 

[Violet_0]

sexy characters designed to appeal the otaku/weeaboo crowd could get you arrested in NZ/UK

 

[TC McQueen]

I always blame the excessive sexual repression I see around me on the puritanical roots of the United States, it's my least favorite thing about living in this country. I believe the aesthetic beauty of the human body is something to be celebrated in all of its forms.

I agree, but in most cases, I feel like onscreen nudity/sexuality rarely adds anything worthwhile. I think it's because so many works over the past decade or so have stuck sex in to look "adult" instead of actually being adult/mature in how they handle the topic.

 

[oneida]

PrudeGAF

 

[toddhunter]

Honestly, it adds nothing for me. Anytime I see any kind of male or female fanservice most of the time I'm utterly disgusted because the idea behind it feels like primitive mentality (or lack of).

That is a fair enough opinion, but I do have to say Arcsys really let you down after your choice of username

 

[antitrop]

I agree, but in most cases, I feel like onscreen nudity/sexuality rarely adds anything worthwhile. I think it's because so many works over the past decade or so have stuck sex in to look "adult" instead of actually being adult/mature in how they handle the topic.

I agree, something like that MGS5 character seems ridiculous to me, because it looks silly within the context of the game.

However, something like objecting to the character design of Dragon's Crown merely because the character has great breasts seems equally ridiculous to me.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Heh.

I like sex appeal of all kinds. Even the seemingly silly ones like the ones typically depicted in various MOBA/Online games artworks and such.

Although I do draw the line in loli sexiness/sexiness depicted in seemingly underage characters. That's a no no. But if the characters are adult, then everything is fair game to me.

 

[RedSwirl]

The problem isn't the existence of sex appeal in female video game characters. The problem is that almost every female video game character seems to be designed for the male audience. There's no sense of balance, and it seems like the standards for female character design and writing in gaming is much lower than in other media.

Whenever someone tries to make a list of "best non-sexualized female video game characters," the top five end up being almost the ONLY five girls who even count.

Sex appeal in and of itself isn't the problem. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be enough of a focus on anything other than sex appeal when it comes to female characters.

 

[Ezza]

I think women are scared of other women who are far more attractive than they are, especially in a non-realistic environment where they couldn't possibly compete.

With men you've got muscles, you've got money, you've got confidence.. there's a list of things you can work on to be 'attractive' but when a woman tries to attract a man it's pretty much all just in the way she looks. From my experience they generally just stand there looking pretty and dare us to come up to them and look like fools.

So I think thats why there's an uproar every time theres a sexy woman in a video game. Its the mothers and the sisters.. and often also their boyfriends/husbands who are forced in to complaining about it at knife point. Because 'looks dont matter' ..as long as the woman saying that statement is the sexiest in the room...

Bizarre post...

 

[Austriacus]

http://penny-arcade.com/report/arti...oves-online-play-doesnt-improve-casual-racism

I think this kinda article is the reason a lot of people dont like all of this. They are discussing Mai, a heavy sexualised character while ignoring there is a lot of diversity in the cast and something for everyone. Which kinda fuels everyones idea that people want to get rid of sexy characters all together.

 

[JordanN]

The problem isn't the existence of sex appeal in female video game characters. The problem is that almost every female video game character seems to be designed for the male audience. There's no sense of balance, and it seems like the standards for female character design and writing in gaming is much lower than in other media.

I actually wonder how true is this. For example, are you telling me all "E" rated games fall under this trope?

 

[Pau]

I actually wonder how true is this. For example, are you telling me all "E" rated games fall under this trope?

As far as playable characters go, yeah, a bit. I can't really think of a well-received E rated game that stars a female character besides Banjo-Kazooie, Super Princess Peach, and Pokemon (where the character is customizable). That was one of the reasons that guy modded Wind Waker: he couldn't really find anything that was both a good game and suitable for his daughter's age.

 

[sonicmj1]

I think this kinda article is the reason a lot of people dont like all of this. They are discussing Mai, a heavy sexualised character while ignoring there is a lot of diversity in the cast and something for everyone. Which kinda fuels everyones idea that people want to get rid of sexy characters all together.

Not all criticism will be equally valid. I think a lot of the stuff in that article is pretty far off-target.

 

[John Kowalski]

I actually wonder how true is this. For example, are you telling me all "E" rated games fall under this trope?

Those are even worse offenders. Videogames for children are havens for sexual and cultural archetypes, and let's not even talk about videogames for little girls. Exceptions are even rarer, which in and of itself communicates something very bad about how and what media is displayed to children.

 

[JordanN]

As far as playable characters go, yeah, a bit. I can't really think of a well-received E rated game that stars a female character besides Banjo-Kazooie, Super Princess Peach, and Pokemon (where the character is customizable). That was one of the reasons that guy modded Wind Waker: he couldn't really find anything that was both a good game and suitable for his daughter's age.

The question wasn't starring, it was about all females designed for sex.

The E rated games I played/seen never had half naked females. They're neutral in design. I also don't know any playable female characters who are sexual in an E rated game.

Those are even worse offenders. Videogames for children are havens for sexual and cultural archetypes, and let's not even talk about videogames for little girls. Exceptions are even rarer, which in and of itself communicates something very bad about how and what media is displayed to children.

I need to see what E-rated video games you play that has that. O.O

 

[Zaptruder]

Design videogames without see appeal. Sell less than one with sex appeal. Shrug shoulders and give up.

Developers react to market forces... So show them that you're more happy to buy games without inappropriate sexualization as other games are to buy over sexualized games and the industry might change.

 

[The Technomancer]

The question wasn't starring, it was about all females designed for sex.

The E rated games I played never had half naked females. They're neutral in design. I also don't know any playable female characters who are sexual in an E rated game.

Sure, but his point is that the sample size in E rated games is incredibly small, which is an entire problem in and of itself.

 

[Dennis]

I love sex appeal.