Austriacus
Member
But do you see that many people could think this is the opinion of many when this kinda stuff is presented by media outlets? They feel threatened because they feel their favorite characters are being told to be changed.
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Why does it seem like people have something against sex appeal?
- Thread starter Arc Christelle
- Start date
But do you see that many people could think this is the opinion of many when this kinda stuff is presented by media outlets? They feel threatened because they feel their favorite characters are being told to be changed.
John Kowalski
Banned
Really? I need to see what E rated games you are playing. Please note that "designed for men" doesn't merely imply sexually strong imagery, but a whole width of design choices that seek to emphasize archaic representations of the sexes. If that's not what you were referencing, i apologize.
Well, they said more that they were designed for a male audience not sexual exclusively, so I thought it was relevant to bring up that female characters are hardly ever given prominent roles in E rated games.
Why do people always miss the point in these discussions? is not the fact that sex appeal exists at all that is the problem (those people who find sex appeal wrong DO exist but most of the discussions we've had on this topic in the past months have not been about that) but the fact that it disproportionately affects female characters who are made to appeal to straight male gamers reinforcing the "boy's club" image gaming has been recently trying to get rid of. *in b4 but more men play videogames*
JordanN
Banned
Even "designed for men" still leaves me iffy. Like I can't agree there are games where every decision made is because a game director or marketing spokesperson said "You know what? This is a male game and we don't want women playing it".
I still think E-rated games can be broad and the ones that do have females in it are not necessarily just for men and are just that. Characters.
EventHorizon
Member
I don't think that more gamers are concerned about sexy characters. That's why developers keep making them. What I think has happened is that gaming has become big business and as a result captured the attention of more people and it is out of this new group that the criticism comes.
A more fundamental problem is that people only view the gaming population as a monolithic entity. We get this all the time with all of the "Think of the children" concerns. There are plenty of women gamers and the types of games they play aren't sexualised. I am speaking in generalities here. I know that there are many core girl gamers.
Sex sales. It is no different in video games than it is in movies, TV and music.
A more fundamental problem is that people only view the gaming population as a monolithic entity. We get this all the time with all of the "Think of the children" concerns. There are plenty of women gamers and the types of games they play aren't sexualised. I am speaking in generalities here. I know that there are many core girl gamers.
Sex sales. It is no different in video games than it is in movies, TV and music.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its often not that explicit. Hell, that's kind of the point: so much of this is just "the way things are done" at this point, below conscious awareness sometimes. And its really not unique to games.
JordanN
Banned
If it's not explicit, how do you know when a decision is for males/females?
I said in another thread, if I drew a circle and square, what kind of message am I sending? It's impossible to know unless I make it obvious in some way. It's up for interpretation, but you wouldn't know the intent.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Which is when we expand the analysis to be cultural, looking at things in the context of other media, both contemporary and historical, in order to think about patterns in media that influence current creators. Trying to understand the unconscious processes that underlie their conscious decisions.
JesseEwiak
Member
Straight from TheRedPill on Reddit, most likely.
Alex
Member
There is a difference between creepy geek wank fodder masquerading as a genuine product and sex appeal with some taste, meaning and restraint. We sadly have fairly little of the latter in this hobby. Defending sex appeal in this industry as is would is like defending late-night Cinemax flicks as legitimate film.
So I guess my opinion would be that I always want attractive characters and I like having a bevy of aesthetic options, but I want more even handedness and I want less awkward attempts at light smut targeted solely at the forever alone crowd. It'd be nice if they could keep that fare to its own products rather than letting it bleed over so much.
I'm no prude and there's a time and place for everything I just don't like seeing the awkward saturation in otherwise normal games.
So I guess my opinion would be that I always want attractive characters and I like having a bevy of aesthetic options, but I want more even handedness and I want less awkward attempts at light smut targeted solely at the forever alone crowd. It'd be nice if they could keep that fare to its own products rather than letting it bleed over so much.
I'm no prude and there's a time and place for everything I just don't like seeing the awkward saturation in otherwise normal games.
MHWilliams
Member
Technically, shapes and even colors are primed in societies to mean different things. That's why marketing and advertising focus on things like color, design, slogans, etc. Everything matters. Even if the creator doesn't know about these things, every aspect of creating a character effects how the audience perceives them.
The problem is certain ideas are reinforced over and over, instead of having a wider variety of creative inspiration out there. No one asks why things are a certain way.
If I tell you to create certain characters on the fly - Space Marine, Female Ninja, Evil CEO, for example - most people's minds will tend to move in the same directions. Especially within certain cultures, like gaming.
Consumption of past work primes the creation of future work. Sometimes it good to ask why the work we're consuming is being created.
What the? They put that in Lightning returns? This is ridiculous!
*pre-orders*
btw.
As positive examples I'd post these two
Triss from Witcher 2
Clara from Watchdogs.
While the latter one is already a bit borderline I think she still comes off as someone you could come across in real life
Arc Christelle
Member
Give me an example of this.
JordanN
Banned
Can you prove this without it being correlation doesn't imply causation?
People can be influenced but that itself doesn't set trends for the future.
Arc Christelle
Member
I don't understand, they both look just average. Nothing that seems to grasp sex appeal imo.
Arc Christelle
Member
sex appeal with taste or meaning:
creepy geek wank fodder:
Find a video game reference for tasteful example please. Plus that can also be considered the latter.
As for that image of Lightning, it's... really not that appealing either imo. Just out of place, or seems like something that's there if you want to personalize her, like Tekken or somethin. But I don't care much for FF so the hell if I know.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'd probably go with Catherine for tasteful and meaningful
akachan ningen
Member
What's wrong with appreciating some hot titties?
I was going to post a picture of Maria from SH2, but you'd miss the point and say she's not showing enough skin to be considered sexualized. Even though Maria could be naked and sucking James's dick while a monster watches and it would probably still have more meaning and weight than 99% of the sexuality in games.
Is this thread supposed to be about sex appeal, or your specific idea of what sex appeal is?
Arc Christelle
Member
I definitely agree. I think Catherine is a brilliant character in that aspect.
What the hell man. Anyway, I get the point of the costume itself, but that was my opinion. You called it wank fodder. Which was your opinion.
Riposte
Member
sex appeal with taste or meaning:
Legit burst out laughing.
Haunted
Member
What a dreary place the world would be if every creative force would just submit to the lowest common denominator.
Well it's really more "designed by men" than "designed for men." Part of the point is that a significant proportion of female representations in video games are coming from the male perspective. That may be true in other media too, but it seems particularly egregious in video games. Personally I think it's gotten better since the late 90's era when character designs like old school Lara and that chick from SiN were the norm, but this industry still has a long way to go.
Actually it was quoting another poster for clarity's sake. I would hope people have better things to masturbate to
Arc Christelle
Member
Indeed.
Arc Christelle
Member
Interesting tell me more. Specifically about your state of mind before and how you found acceptance of it.
I can't control what I'm attracted to. Some characters are designed to be attractive. But what I dislike is when characters are designed to take away the choice of the player in how they cultivate their character views.
Characters like Elena Fisher, Alxy Vance, Triss Merigold are all highly redeeming presentations of people. They appeal is very real, is certainly based on appearance, but is at the same time much more than that. One of those things that's hard to put into words and this effect is probably why the characters are so great.
Then you have characters like Lightning, Kerrigan or Morrigan who really make it obvious how we are supposed to approach these characters. It's like I don't have a choice, but I can still hate them in the way they are used. The problem is that the context in which you find the characters in these games not only are unnatural in the real world, but are often awkward and unnatural in their own worlds.
Then there are some sort of boundary cases. Like Metal Gear Solid. I've never had a problem in this. Probably due to the cinema/Bond-esque way that idealized heroes/heroins are handled. It's there, I see it, but It's almost never a distraction. The game seems paint how these superficial traits fall to the background during times of war and struggle.
Characters like Elena Fisher, Alxy Vance, Triss Merigold are all highly redeeming presentations of people. They appeal is very real, is certainly based on appearance, but is at the same time much more than that. One of those things that's hard to put into words and this effect is probably why the characters are so great.
Then you have characters like Lightning, Kerrigan or Morrigan who really make it obvious how we are supposed to approach these characters. It's like I don't have a choice, but I can still hate them in the way they are used. The problem is that the context in which you find the characters in these games not only are unnatural in the real world, but are often awkward and unnatural in their own worlds.
Then there are some sort of boundary cases. Like Metal Gear Solid. I've never had a problem in this. Probably due to the cinema/Bond-esque way that idealized heroes/heroins are handled. It's there, I see it, but It's almost never a distraction. The game seems paint how these superficial traits fall to the background during times of war and struggle.
Devolution
Member
Nothing wrong with sex appeal.
Make more characters without it though.
Thanks.
Make more characters without it though.
Thanks.
Unknown Soldier
Member
One thing I've observed in the past few years of posting here is that GAF has a huge number of prudes.
Ultra-violence is okay, but sex is bad! This is not unlike how movies are treated too in the Western world, interestingly enough.
Ultra-violence is okay, but sex is bad! This is not unlike how movies are treated too in the Western world, interestingly enough.
Gladly.
I used to hate it because I didn't want be a part of anything that needed to "hook" people with the most desperate thing possible. I also saw it as shallow (I still do to an extent). When I learned that most every female wants to be seen as attractive or pretty, it hit me that females aren't offended by being look at (of course within reason). At that point, I stopped being so uptight about the whole thing.
There isn't anything wrong with sex appeal. There is something wrong with promoting poor sexual behaviors (treating rape lightly, misogyny, sexual abuse/assault, etc...). Very few games go that far. Besides, even the most elegant women will be nitpicked into a sexual object for the most paranoid.
There's also the image of video games and stuff. Video games aren't one of a kind. Most music is trashy, does that mean music as a whole needs to improve?. Entertainment is all about what's exciting, and for video games, that would be sex and violence. People will always try to find the most negative aspect of anything and highlight that. As informed gamers, it's about not feeding into that and just playing what we like regardless of judgement, because you will know if you are what a video game promotes.
Video games are a wonder in which we can the freedom of self-expression through a game. If someone wants to use that expression on shameless pandering, then so be it. Would it be nice if more game developers were more subtle and "classy" with their approach towards sex appeal, yeah. But seeing attractive females isn't turning people into criminals or anything like that (that's when we would have a problem). Obviously shameless pandering is not for everyone, but to each his own I guess.
shanshan310
Member
Cosigned by shanshan310.
Austriacus
Member
MHWilliams
Member
Without a grant and years of research? Doubtful, but I think you knew that before you asked the question.
That in itself is not the only factor, but to say it's not a factor at all is... specious at best.
So you agree. Excellent! And people saying the same thing is just that. We're consumers. We're allowed to reach out toward developers and say, "hey, this is what we'd like to see" or "hey, this is something we don't like". If a developer or creator doesn't wish to engage, they're more than welcome to decline to change.
I sort of agree with the violence versus sex thing. I'm not usually bothered by sexualized characters in games (I'm male, so no big surprise there), but I honestly wonder if graphic violence is potentially more unhealthy.
When people complain about movies or videogames that (in general) aren't gory or violent enough, and they want to see bloody bits flying around, or (to be specific, complaints about Fallout 3 or whatever) a videogame that doesn't allow them to viscerally murder children...that bothers me, in the sense of being uneasy about the person in question. I may be wrong though, and perhaps extensive exposure to violence and desensitization is not a major factor in behavior or psychological issues, though.
Arc Christelle
Member
Really good write up, very open minded and thoughtful. Although I'd argue "Action" in general is exciting for video games, (not limiting to violence). I know some people would like to argue that some to a majority of games pander to sex/sex appeal, but I'd really like Bayo 3 to happen or a Vanguard Princess 2/The eventual release of Prime to happen.
I thought he was just stating his experience and what brought him to his conclusion.
thesolidshark
Member
sex appeal with taste or meaning:
creepy geek wank fodder:
In terms of sex appeal, while I don't care much for that Lightning outfit (but not enough to call it "creey geek wank fodder"), she'd still get my preference because I know she's legally an adult (by most standards). Not sure about Angela's (girl in the roses) age though.
I know the point trying to be made here, just found that funny enough to mention.
Devolution
Member
Also: not being keen on sexualization in every single possible context does not make one a prude.
NJDEN
Member
I don't mind attractive characters, but when sexiness over takes practicality it bothers me. Really, you expect me to believe that the only body armor women need are on their breasts and lower torso/groin area? What about the other 80% of the body, is it just magically shielded against swords and bullets or shrapnel. Its completely possible to make body armor look protective and sexy.
Austriacus
Member
What if its used to ilustrate the problem itself?
If not prude maybe just a LIL bit weird.
Devolution
Member
I don't have a problem with parody, satire or tongue in cheek representations. I didn't have a problem with the Sorceress from DC, nor Bayo. But I'm tired of a lack of variety when it comes to several things including female representations.
Austriacus
Member
Devolution
Member
Well then, its not on every single posible context
It is to the people who keep mentioning the word "prude" as some kind of admonishment of those who don't want to see lowest common denominator pandering over and over. And even if I don't have specific problems with the representations I mentioned they're still more static over the airways that doesn't really challenge the status quo.
At some point I have to wonder how many times one has to visit a strip club or have a threesome before the "you're a prude" brigade would kindly shut the hell up.
Arc Christelle
Member
Pretty sure you don't have to do either. There's a place for everything. I think we can reach that understanding without acting condescending to one another. (speaking of those that do.)
Devolution
Member
I've done both. I do not consider myself a prude. I consider myself someone who is tired of one dimensional characters and a lack of variety when it comes to representing my gender. That's my point. There's nothing prudish about it. And yet the conversation veers in that direction because some people can't think outside their narrow perspectives.
It is unfortunately the world we live in right now. Certainly not everything is designed for the lcd... But given how heavily we incentivise money in our society, and how easy and efficient it is to appeal to the base urges of the masses... We are unlikely to find a way out of our current state withoutagainst significant external cultural and economic forces changing the industry externally. Best we can do now is to thoroughly Celebrate the games that engage the typical lcd see demographic without the appeal to cheap sexualization or indeed cheap violence that is been railed against in this topic.