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Tomb Raider: Definitive Edition (Xbox One / PlayStation 4) - Jan 28 2014

Harlequin

Member
Hopefully publishers will learn not to price "definitive editions" for $60 after the game bombs or fails to meet expectations at retail..

This is Square we're talking about. Of course it'll fail to meet their expectations :p. It'll probably still perform pretty well for an HD port.

I disagree but this is an interesting position to have that I haven't seen before so thanks for posting it. I think that the huge amounts of air control they gave Lara in the reboot combined with ledge grabbing/magnetism is what removes all the thrill of the platforming. You can pretty much turn any angle in mid air and just hold forward and still make it. There isn't any judging or planning going on, just hit a and point in the direction. LAU at least had some level of 'how the hell do I get up there?' to them. You'd enter a huge tomb and have to figure out how to navigate to your goal, and that is completely missing in the reboot. It's true they have ledge grabbing, but they are still far more engaging and fun than what was in the reboot.

I honestly think that they just put most of their work into the shooting and the sparse platforming was a complete afterthought.

I certainly agree that they put most of their work into the combat. And it is the best combat system any Tomb Raider game has ever had (though I have a hard time imagining how they'll translate it to fighting wildlife in any future iterations :p). There also aren't a lot of areas in the reboot that showcase the kind of platforming I described (it's mostly just the kind of platforming you do while free-roaming in the hubs - none of the linear platforming sections you have to go through to progress) but at least the reboot controls allow for it and it's in there at all which makes me hopeful that Crystal might expand on it in the sequel and shows that Crystal is capable of creating that kind of platforming at all.

A great example of what a modern version of Tomb Raider platforming should play like (to give you an idea of what I mean) IMO is Mirror's Edge (minus the first-person view, obviously). Platforming, not ledge-hopping, no magnetic ledges and you actually have to aim your jumps, etc.

Free patch for PC version incoming in 3... 2...

Keep dreaming. You really think the company charging 60$ for a NG port is going to release a free NG patch for the PC version :p? If there will be such a patch at all it'll cost ya.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
It's just people being butt hurt that it isn't a poorly controlling empty level design of a game like the previous games. I'll never understand it myself, and it just makes me think that they all remember the old Tomb Raider games differently than they actually were. The new Tomb Raider has less platforming, and a bit less in the puzzle department, but it gained good controls, fantastic combat, a great leveling/upgrading system, and significantly more exploration in environments that make a whole hell of a lot more sense. The old Tomb Raider games are clunky, claustrophobic, empty games that people tend to remember being wide open exploration driven adventures.

The first reboot trilogy that Crystal D did was more like the originals, and they executed on that formula better than had ever done in the past, but it was getting really stale. If they had continued down the same path with Tomb Raider we would have gotten a new one, it would have gotten slammed in reviews for being outdated, and the series would now be dead. Instead we have a game that may be different from the past games, but it presents the sense of adventure that the older games clearly wanted to have but couldn't due to tech limitations.

I've said this in other threads, but I actually didn't play the 90's era Tomb Raider games, only the recent current-gen trilogy, and I was still really disappointed with TR 2013.

Sure the action gameplay is better, since that was the one huge flaw of the other TR games, but in exchange for that Eidos threw away almost everything about the other TR games I liked. The focus on environmental puzzle solving and actual tomb raiding was pretty much thrown by the wayside, and all you had left was just another third person shooter.

Strange that I can completely understand and appreciate this line of thinking... but am staunchly opposed to it when applied to Resident Evil pre and post RE4.

I think all the blame goes on CVX's head. I think it is a case of RE:CV(X) having too much backtracking, what I consider to be a boring story, not carrying-forward the improvements of RE3 (dodge, split-second decisions which influence your progress through the game, quick 180' turn, and a few others I've long since forgotten). I think people felt it was a step-back from RE3, and dismissed the classic control scheme/formula as a whole.

Looking at RE pre and post RE4, I always did think there was more mileage in further 'Remakes' with beefed-up graphics, small story re-writes, new content/areas to explore. And also in the online-connected experience of 'Outbreak' - Outbreak a year or two later would have been awesome.

Code Veronica took the traditional RE format to its logical conclusion I feel. But the problem wasn't the format of the game, it was the controls an UI. Relying on fixed camera angles and tank controls just felt really restrictive when other games like Ocarina of Time or Thief started pioneering how to do 3D environments and controls in action games properly.

That said, at the time of the old school RE games no one had really figured out how to do a third person action game really well. Games like RE and Metal Gear simply took 2D game design philosophies into a polygonal world. I never extensively played the classic TR games but those games were some of the ones that took flawed early steps into true 3D game design. Winback is another pretty good example from that era.

It really wasn't until the late PS2 era that we started to get legitimately playable third person 3D action games as sort of a norm. Splinter Cell is a great example, and Metal Gear Solid 3 essentially rethought that franchise's level design around the fact that the player is in a 3D environment. All this stuff didn't get codified though until you had RE4 and Gears. From there, it's easy to look back at RE in retrospect, but really, everybody was still stumbling around at the time (except Nintendo).

In my opinion the ideal RE game would be the old adventure format with today's controls, but instead RE4 (despite being possibly the best third person shooter ever) kind of threw the baby out with the bathwater. That's what TR 2013 did except it's not nearly as good an action game.

No. The Definitive Edition will feature:
-TressFX (in the PC version)
-High-Res Textures (in the PC version)
-1080p Resolution (in the PC version)
-Advanced cloth, weather and foliage physics (not in the PC version)
-higher-poly environments and characters (not in the PC version)
-better lighting/rendering (not in the PC version)
-better shaders (not in the PC version) (Not sure if they only updated the skin and cloth shaders or all the shaders, though.)

Wait, how do we know the "better lighting/rendering" and "better shaders" aren't just the lighting and shader settings from the PC version? Remember, the PC version added stuff like HBAO and tessellation. I don't think we'll know if that's actually what they added until there's a DF analysis or something. Still the fact they went back on Lara's face means they probably are dedicated to redoing some of the assets. A PC upgrade fee wouldn't be out of the question (they did this for Deus Ex).
 

Harlequin

Member
Wait, how do we know the "better lighting/rendering" and "better shaders" aren't just the lighting and shader settings from the PC version? Remember, the PC version added stuff like HBAO and tessellation. I don't think we'll know if that's actually what they added until there's a DF analysis or something. Still the fact they went back on Lara's face means they probably are dedicated to redoing some of the assets. A PC upgrade fee wouldn't be out of the question (they did this for Deus Ex).

Watch a YouTube video of the PC version at Ultra settings, then watch the Definitive Edition trailer, then tell me the lighting and shaders are the same ;).

EDIT: Here:
R1ZoKDp.jpg

Top is PC version, bottom is Definitive Edition. The lighting and skin shader are quite obviously better in the DE.
 

UnrealEck

Member
Watch a YouTube video of the PC version at Ultra settings, then watch the Definitive Edition trailer, then tell me the lighting and shaders are the same ;).

EDIT: Here:
R1ZoKDp.jpg

Top is PC version, bottom is Definitive Edition. The lighting and skin shader are quite obviously better in the DE.

The lighting doesn't look better. Neither does the skin. The only thing that looks different is her eyes. Oh and the colour/contrast.
 

Harlequin

Member
The lighting doesn't look better. Neither does the skin. The only thing that looks different is her eyes. Oh and the colour/contrast.

Looks heaps better in my opinion. And just watch the trailer and pause at a few frames. They've definitely reworked the lighting.
 

UnrealEck

Member
Looks heaps better in my opinion. And just watch the trailer and pause at a few frames. They've definitely reworked the lighting.

Looks bluer to me.
In fact I can even see more detail on her lips. I can see the little creases in the skin. Her arms are even more obvious. The only difference I can see from that comparison is the eyes look different and the entire scene is much bluer. The shadow on her shoulder is also missing a part.

On a side note, what's with her eyes? She one looking up and one looking straight ahead.
I saw it in motion and the model's eyes did look better but that's not exactly hard considering the eyes in the current model are quite bad. I didn't notice any improved lighting.
Show me some more screens and maybe I'll get what you mean by 'heaps better.'
 

Theecliff

Banned
The lighting doesn't look better. Neither does the skin. The only thing that looks different is her eyes. Oh and the colour/contrast.

Look at her nose, her left cheek, left side of her jaw, and her neck in the DE version - you can see an orange glow from a light source somewhere that you can only slightly see on her armpit and top side of her left arm in the PC version. Of course, this difference might be because they've changed the position of a light source in that scene - but even that would also suggest they've reworked the lighting in the game (unless this game has a day/night cycle).
 

Ghazi

Member
I think that comparison screenshot is bad, for now. I'd rather wait for high quality footage from somewhere like Gamersyde or in-game captures than compare things through YouTube. It ruins the image.
 

Harlequin

Member
Looks bluer to me.
In fact I can even see more detail on her lips. I can see the little creases in the skin. Her arms are even more obvious. The only difference I can see from that comparison is the eyes look different and the entire scene is much bluer. The shadow on her shoulder is also missing a part.

On a side note, what's with her eyes? She one looking up and one looking straight ahead.
I saw it in motion and the model's eyes did look better but that's not exactly hard considering the eyes in the current model are quite bad. I didn't notice any improved lighting.
Show me some more screens and maybe I'll get what you mean by 'heaps better.'

Here you go:

If you still believe the lighting hasn't been improved you seriously need to replay the initial release because it certainly doesn't look like that.
 

Frumix

Suffering From Success
Let's not judge color balance and texture fidelity by low-res Youtube screenshots, okay? That's all I'm asking for.
 

RedAssedApe

Banned
they really need to put out some HQ screenshots...keep seeing the same compressed...bad quality stream screencaps being posted where you can't see anything
 

Big_Al

Unconfirmed Member
It's funny thinking back to playing this earlier and how easy the 'platforming' in Tomb Raider was in comparison to the older games. Main reason this came back to mind (apart from this thread of course) is playing Guacamelee over the weekend which has some of the most bastard hard, yet very satisfying, platforming I've played in a game in recent years. If they do a sequel to Tomb Raider I hope they do more harder platforming in that.
 

system11

Member
Doesn't seem like a great idea for a release to be honest. The reason I say this is that it was a great game (if not Anniversary levels of good), and it sold really, really well - at least in the UK it was constantly in the charts.

That suggests to me a majority of people interested in the title have already played it, with a story/exploration based game, are many going to want to revisit it again, especially so soon?
 

MaLDo

Member
Watch a YouTube video of the PC version at Ultra settings, then watch the Definitive Edition trailer, then tell me the lighting and shaders are the same ;).

EDIT: Here:
R1ZoKDp.jpg

Top is PC version, bottom is Definitive Edition. The lighting and skin shader are quite obviously better in the DE.

Character tesselation is not activated in the DE screenshot. Anyway maybe they activate it for the final version.
 

Harlequin

Member
Doesn't seem like a great idea for a release to be honest. The reason I say this is that it was a great game (if not Anniversary levels of good), and it sold really, really well - at least in the UK it was constantly in the charts.

That suggests to me a majority of people interested in the title have already played it, with a story/exploration based game, are many going to want to revisit it again, especially so soon?

I think they're rooting on people not so interested in buying the original version buying the DE simply because there's not a whole lot NG content yet (and there won't be in late January when this releases) and people want to play with their new toys.
 

BigDug13

Member
Here you go:


If you still believe the lighting hasn't been improved you seriously need to replay the initial release because it certainly doesn't look like that.

Oh well if that's what was revealed during a preview video, then I'm sure the finished product will look just like that. Not sure why people still trust videos shown at events as if the finished game will look anywhere near that good.

We won't know what this game will actually look like until some people are actually playing the finished product. Everything shown before that time is "grain of salt" worthy. We see it time and again from "reveal" videos compared to the finished product.
 
Regarding the actual aesthetic, with lemming, over hyped AAA drivel aside:

IMO, either one looks good, just a different colour palette and lighting "style." An adjustment with contrast / hues, but not necessarily "better." I actually prefer the old facial structure, but w/e.

Also, when I hear comments regarding "obvious improvements," it makes me wonder how many have experience with the PC.
 

Melchiah

Member
Yes, but it's not worth full price. It fills the Uncharted gap.

It's a really good game with a terrible story. If you like the gameplay in Uncharted, there's a good chance that you'll like the new Tomb Raider. It was one of my favourite titles this year

Absolutely, any who says otherwise is crazy. It's worth every penny, I'll be buying it again day one.

Thanks for answering, I guess I'll look into it if the price is right. I liked UC2+3 to some extent, but I really hated the constant firefights, so if this one will have those in abundance, I think I might pass. I wish the emphasis was more on puzzles and adventuring instead of action in these kind of games. =/


top = pc with tress, bottom = vga trailer (ripped from youtube)

R1ZoKDp.jpg

I think she looks better in the newer version.
 

s_mirage

Member
If you still believe the lighting hasn't been improved you seriously need to replay the initial release because it certainly doesn't look like that.

Well, it looks less subtle but that isn't necessarily an improvement. At this point all it's fair to say is that the lighting appears to be different.

Is it just me or does she not have as many scars in the Definitive look?

She doesn't appear to. The all new chubby cheeked Lara, now with less scars! Seriously, for $60?
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Regarding the actual aesthetic, with lemming, over hyped AAA drivel aside:

IMO, either one looks good, just a different colour palette and lighting "style." An adjustment with contrast / hues, but not necessarily "better." I actually prefer the old facial structure, but w/e.

Also, when I hear comments regarding "obvious improvements," it makes me wonder how many have experience with the PC.
Also, when I hear comments regarding "PC being the definitive version or still being better" it makes me wonder if people need glasses.
seriously it blatantly obvious the game has been upgraded beyond the PC version regardless if it's on max setting or not, the PC version doesn't contain the said assets to look anywhere near it.

Oh well if that's what was revealed during a preview video, then I'm sure the finished product will look just like that. Not sure why people still trust videos shown at events as if the finished game will look anywhere near that good.

We won't know what this game will actually look like until some people are actually playing the finished product. Everything shown before that time is "grain of salt" worthy. We see it time and again from "reveal" videos compared to the finished product.
so first it don't look as good when its obviously improved, and now we shouldn't believe the trailer.....ok, not sure about grain of salt, but there is salt in this thread.
 
so first it don't look as good when its obviously improved, and now we shouldn't believe the trailer.....ok, not sure about grain of salt, but there is salt in this thread.
Ordinarily, you should always take what you see in trailers and preview material not to be 100% indicative of the final code. Remember that Halo Reach premiered at the VGAs with an in-engine cutscene that looked quite a bit different than the final game.

Top: VGA build, Bottom: Final build
then.jpg

now.jpg

But in this circumstance, Tomb Raider is coming out next month so it's not likely to look much different. Still, people are right to always be skeptical.
 
No. The Definitive Edition will feature:
-TressFX (in the PC version)
-High-Res Textures (in the PC version)
-1080p Resolution (in the PC version)
-Advanced cloth, weather and foliage physics (not in the PC version)
-higher-poly environments and characters (not in the PC version)
-better lighting/rendering (not in the PC version)
-better shaders (not in the PC version) (Not sure if they only updated the skin and cloth shaders or all the shaders, though.)

From where do you got the bolded parts? If it's a real improvement and not only a simple PC port then I think the PC version should get those changes too.
 

s_mirage

Member
Also, when I hear comments regarding "PC being the definitive version or still being better" it makes me wonder if people need glasses.
seriously it blatantly obvious the game has been upgraded beyond the PC version regardless if it's on max setting or not, the PC version doesn't contain the said assets to look anywhere near it.

Out of interest, what is obviously improved? To me it looks less than obvious. A different, less subtle colour palette doesn't necessarily mean the lighting model is improved. At best it only shows that they are making stylistic changes, at worst in could suggest they are going for a visual equivalent of the "louder = better" approach that we see as a marketing ploy in the audio world.
 

BadAss2961

Member
Having not played the reboot yet and watching that VGX trailer, the drastic change from old Tomb Raider to new is pretty hilarious.

Lara was lighting fools up. 'Mass-murderer Drake' looks like a saint now.
 
No. The Definitive Edition will feature:
-TressFX (in the PC version)
-High-Res Textures (in the PC version)
-1080p Resolution (in the PC version)
-Advanced cloth, weather and foliage physics (not in the PC version)
-higher-poly environments and characters (not in the PC version)
-better lighting/rendering (not in the PC version)
-better shaders (not in the PC version) (Not sure if they only updated the skin and cloth shaders or all the shaders, though.)

Looks like a lot of guesswork to me, have any sources?

BTW, the "definitive" version lacks:

- Resolutions greater than 1080p
- High quality AA
- 120fps
 

ALM5252

Member
I have a question, sure it's not really able to be answered at this moment but, if I buy a PS4 and get this game also, you think I can remote play it on Vita? Are most PS4 games remote playable at this time?

All PS4 games are required to be Remote Play capable, I believe.
Thanks for the answer. I'm looking forward to this game on PS4.
 
How much they gonna charge for this ? $30 ? I paid $20 for 360 version on sale and must say SP was ok but the multiplayer on the other hand was complete garbage
 
Pretty sure the version I played in triple display 5760x1200 is the definitive edition

That's not how it works. Ridiculous resolutions don't make anything definitive. Sure it's important. But in that regard I wouldn't take the PS1 version of Resident Evil rendered at 1080p over the Gamecube REmake.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Out of interest, what is obviously improved? To me it looks less than obvious. A different, less subtle colour palette doesn't necessarily mean the lighting model is improved. At best it only shows that they are making stylistic changes, at worst in could suggest they are going for a visual equivalent of the "louder = better" approach that we see as a marketing ploy in the audio world.
You can't judge the colour palette with this YouTube vid, but there is improvements visible and the Lara does look more natural, you can tell its a higher ploy model( which I think is not a redesign as it look more like the CG head render they released with the original game, if it was a CG render.)
I'd say and I sure you'll agree its best wait till we get better quality video and screens
But as it stands whether people prefer it or not, the New version is superior and would look amazing on PC, even more so then it will on PS4/Xbone

Pretty sure the version I played in triple display 5760x1200 is the definitive edition
Does it have 4x the texture resolution too?
 
Also, when I hear comments regarding "PC being the definitive version or still being better" it makes me wonder if people need glasses.
seriously it blatantly obvious the game has been upgraded beyond the PC version regardless if it's on max setting or not, the PC version doesn't contain the said assets to look anywhere near it..

image.php
 
I liked the game for what it was. I'd double dip if there were some additional story elements and levels, kind of like RE Remake. Different graphics isn't enough of a push.
 
Looks like a lot of guesswork to me, have any sources?

BTW, the "definitive" version lacks:

- Resolutions greater than 1080p
- High quality AA
- 120fps
Those options are great and all, but they're straight up impractical for the majority of people's setups if you're targeting 60fps. Ultimate preset at 1080p on my GTX 770 still fluctuates between 40-60, Vsync on. TressFX is simply too taxing, but turn it off and downsampling or 2x SSAA become viable options.

Still, more options are always a good thing and I would bet on the console versions being 30fps.
 

TGO

Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
Lol you're the second person to do that
I think the last time was about viewing distances because I can see the difference between 720p and 1080p or something.
But seriously, the game HAS been "changed" and the character model is improved.
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
Honestly it's useless to compare shit from YouTube videos. Always is. Let's just wait for direct feed footage and screens.
 
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