Clichès left and right, Cage constantly and ham-handedly preaches moral lessons, conversations often feel just unnatural.I'm not exactly an expert on writing, what does make writing bad?
Is it a lack of wit? Is it blatant contradictions with previous lines or events? lines that come off across as dumb or pseudo-intellectual? lack of consistency in tone?
in this particular case it's awkward, stilted dialog, largely disconnected scenes that jump back and forth in time for no real reason, unearned and unbelievable character arcs, and every cliche you can possibly imagineI'm not exactly an expert on writing, what does make writing bad?
Is it a lack of wit? Is it blatant contradictions with previous lines or events? lines that come off across as dumb or pseudo-intellectual? lack of consistency in tone?
Clichès left and right, Cage constantly and ham-handedly preaches moral lessons, conversations often feel just unnatural.
Definitely true, but I mean this kinda happens when you are interviewed on this topic and are invited to give speeches on this topic. It's not like he is throwing himself at the journalists, they ask him those questions. He is just sticking to his point, which is actually positive that he doesn't change his views every year like some other devs. It comes across as repetitive sure, but only because sites keep making articles about it fishing for hits. Maybe he should decline interviews? Probably a good idea for a while.For my part, I don't find what he says holier-than-though, or at least I don't find his personality abrasive or offensive. I think he makes valid criticisms of the industry.
What rubs people (not me individually -- all I care about is the finished game, regardless of where it came from) wrong is:
1. He is very persistent and repetitive with this seemingly obvious message: games should be about story and not always shooting, etc. I think many people are attracted towards story-based games; it's just that it's a difficult problem. Him lecturing about it repeatedly and not particularly humbly does not really help.
Not at all. I feel the same way.BTW, am I weird or something? The thing is that I love games like Bayonetta, Super Meat Boy, Mirror's Edge, Trials Evolution, etc. which are basically pure gameplay (amazing gameplay, actually) but at the same time I love games like Beyond, Deadly Premonition, The Walking Dead, Heavy Rain, etc, which are basically interactive movies, When I read these threads I always end up feeling like I'm part of a weird minority of players that can somehow enjoy both ends of the spectrum (and everything in between) just fine. Heh.
Agreed. Touching scene.One of the things that really got me was when we see is family in that device. I was like.... it looks like they are in pain or anguish. Man oh man, that was just a great capture performance, for that to be conveyed without any sound nor a clear image of their faces.
I walked in with lowered expectations because of the reviews and some comments. Walked away from this thinking this was the best QD title to date.
It's still a good performance.well, that's disappointing.
He does eccentric very well.
It's still a good performance.
I understand people's criticisms of the game. But even taken as a movie it's better than most of what's come out in theaters this year. It joins Heavy Rain as one of the few games to make me cry.
My source is likely bullshit, but is saying Beyond has sold about 1/4 the number of copies of Heavy Rain. That's just a tragedy. Definitely a better game, better controls, better story, better acting and voice. Better everything.
Why didn't you buy it?
Yeah you won't be getting that outside of two scenes maybe. He plays a villain in a James Bond game thoughi'm not doubting that, it's just that william dafoe being unhinged in a videogame would've made me consider buying beyond: two souls..
A 8-12 hour long movie would probably have some kind of additional fee on top of itYou compared it to a movie - it should cost the same as a movie.
Yeah you won't be getting that outside of two scenes maybe. He plays a villain in a James Bond game though
A 8-12 hour long movie would probably have some kind of additional fee on top of it
I'm surprised more people haven't ranted about aiden who really should be named either deus ex machina or convenient plot device in terms of ability usage and gain.
also the worst scene was the car chase to your death .
For my part, I don't find what he says holier-than-though, or at least I don't find his personality abrasive or offensive. I think he makes valid criticisms of the industry.
What rubs people (not me individually -- all I care about is the finished game, regardless of where it came from) wrong is:
1. He is very persistent and repetitive with this seemingly obvious message: games should be about story and not always shooting, etc. I think many people are attracted towards story-based games; it's just that it's a difficult problem. Him lecturing about it repeatedly and not particularly humbly does not really help.
I understand people's criticisms of the game. But even taken as a movie it's better than most of what's come out in theaters this year. It joins Heavy Rain as one of the few games to make me cry.
My source is likely bullshit, but is saying Beyond has sold about 1/4 the number of copies of Heavy Rain. That's just a tragedy. Definitely a better game, better controls, better story, better acting and voice. Better everything.
Why didn't you buy it?
True, fortunately Beyond is still very much a game. It was fucking hard as shit to write though I assume, especially when you only have one year and no room for changes once you start. I look forward to what he can do with a team of writers similar to Telltale. I really love his tech demos where he can focus entirely on quality, since there isn't much to write. A team of writers will likely give him the same ability on a full game.The reason people don't make 8-12 hour movies is because it is hard to make a good well-written story last that long in that format.
It's not like Heavy Rain sold 3m in 2 months. We will see how Beyond fares in the long run.1/4 of Heavy Rain's sales is 750,000. That's still very good.
I've heard a lot of devs who talked to him in person mention that he is rather passionate instead of pretentious. Many agree with him and don't really feel like he is attacking them or their games. Maybe his opinion of his own games is too high? Not unfounded, since critical, commercial and consumer reception was very positive with Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain. Not so much with Beyond, so we will see how this influences him going forward.Are you referring to this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co8e37Pc-lw#t=358
David Cage actually states some very good points at first, but it doesn't take long for his hypocrisy and pretentiousness to come front and center.
I think the biggest reasons are that no one wants to sit through something like that, and really you'd probably be better off making a short TV series out of that. Forcing breaks roughly every hour WOULD probably strengthen the pacing too, rather than treating the work as one giant block.The reason people don't make 8-12 hour movies is because it is hard to make a good well-written story last that long in that format.
You make some good points. I think most people only read some quotes and then hate Cage because of them. But there is a big difference between saying something because you are a douche or because you are passionate about the medium. Cage clearly falls into the latter category and I know a lot of people who grew to appreciate Cage after they attended one of his speeches and talked to him in person. He is pretty nice and humble actually. I also do think some things don't come across as he wants because of language issues. His French interviews are more enjoyable most of the time.
Mike Bithell, creator of Thomas Was Alone, for example:
It's not like Heavy Rain sold 3m in 2 months. We will see how Beyond fares in the long run.
Going by information we have it did about 350k-450k in its first month. So right now after 2 months it probably sits at 450k-650k. Heavy Rain sold roughly 1m in its first month. Given Beyond had more advertising it definitely missed expectations. Is it a huge bomba? Probably not. Will it break even? Hopefully.Well, he said of what Heavy Rain sold - not sold in the same time period. But who really knows.
If you haven't played it, which I assume since you have no interest, you should be careful with such claims.Beyond is a bad movie and an awful game.
Going by information we have it did about 350k-450k in its first month. So right now after 2 months it probably sits at 450k-650k. Heavy Rain sold roughly 1m in its first month. Given Beyond had more advertising it definitely missed expectations. Is it a huge bomba? Probably not. Will it break even? Hopefully.
If you haven't played it, which I assume since you have no interest, you should be careful with such claims.
If you haven't played it, which I assume since you have no interest, you should be careful with such claims.
I bought it at launch, not having played Heavy Rain or any of his previous games before, but being intrigued by the setting, previews, and the whole idea of an interactive movie-type game - The Walking Dead showed that it could be done in an awesome way, so I figured this would be somewhat similar.
Nope. I hated it. SyFy miniseries quality story, really cheesy, overwrought writing (David Cage obviously watches a lot of American movies, the script is littered with movie cliches, from the very beginning with Willem Dafoe warning the SWAT team against trying to capture Jodie, getting ignored and going all "Bastards...goddamn bastards!"...the scene where he gets the news of his wife and daughter dying is just as bad "Accident...on the road...drunk driver..." wtf TALKS like that outside of a movie?! Dafoe was just awful all throughout, and I blame the script for that, not him.
Ellen Page did the best she could with the material she had, but holy shit, it was BAD material.
David Cage can't write his way out of a paper bag, and no matter how incredible the graphics are (and Beyond is a beautiful game, I can't believe it's a PS3 game, it looks like it should be on PS4!), it can't change the fact that the game itself is shit. I understand now why people describe Cage as a frustrated filmmaker - I feel he does these games because he's able to play with ideas in a very big scope - if Beyond was a film, it would have been a $200 million film, due to all the locations, action scenes, special effects, etc. Nobody would have let Cage NEAR a project like that...so instead he does games. Badly.
The worst part is I had a used copy of Heavy Rain I got for about 8 bucks...if I'd played it before buying Beyond, I probably would've known to have stay far, far away from the game.
Literally the only redeeming factors Beyond has are the graphics, the music and use of sound, and Ellen Page's performance. Everything that has to do with writing and gameplay (in other words everything David Cage is involved in) sucks really bad.
I'd love to play a game written by Chris Avellone or the Telltale Games guys and produced by Quantic Dream. Instead, since Cage runs QD, we're stuck with his shitty 'vision' for these games.
Let's pretend that Beyond will be on the ps4.
Yep.
Man it sounds even worse than Heavy Rain sometimes, but your experience with Beyond sounds like a continuation and amplification of everything that was wrong with that game. It's why I can't think it's a good idea to risk buying it, the vast majority of the people I talk to that had problems with Heavy Rain usually either have even more problems with Beyond or think it's just as bad.
Is there anyone who HATED Heavy Rain that ended up liking Beyond? Genuinely curious. That's the type of impression angle I'm looking for, to see a "why" there.
What? Plz explain.Let's pretend that Beyond will be on the ps4.
Yep.
I have zero interest in any story written by David Cage. He´s as dull as pretentious. Good writers, bad writers. And reading his interviews, I´m pretty sure he considers himself a visionary. Yeah, let´s be serious, Cage is nothing but a frustated movie director.
Beyond is a bad movie and an awful game. It had what it deserved.
Ohh, that argument again, just some guy that makes games because he won´t be allowed to direct movies? Yeeahh....suuuuure.
He invites the suggestions all the time, talking about being inspired by Stanley Kubrick and David Fincher and meandering on and on during every Beyond interview about how games need to learn more from movies.
He literally cannot shut up about how much he wants to ape more and more things from movies. People may be extending the thought to a conclusion that is not necessarily the next step, but it's no surprise people think that. Hismoviesvideogames are like condensed balls of every hollywood cliche known to man, but with an amateur-hour execution so pained at times it's a little like watching Kevin Smith direct a movie (heyo!)
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it right there. The man thinks in Hollywood cliches. None of his characters feel like real people, they just feel like 'types' from Hollywood central casting. Like they have no inner life other than the role they're supposed to play in the story, aside from Jodie herself.
I'm thinking of trading in my steelbook edition and I NEVER trade in games, I'm a collector. That gives you an idea of how disappointed I was. :/ :\
That would be nice.The budget for Beyond was 27M - I see it being profitable with those kind of numbers.
That's actually an awesome suggestion. A lot of work, but awesome.made it so that you might see the homeless section or the Navajo section and also made it so you went to either the snow action sequence or the Africa action sequence they could have given the illusion of more choice and I might have wanted replay it.
Heavy Rain had pretty bad marketing though.Did it though? Did it really?
After Heavy Rain I'm more inclined to think the sales were justified for Beyond and thanks to good marketing, Heavy Rain sold too much.
Most painful platinum ive ever achieved. This coming from someone who played the CSI games to completion for 1000GS.
David Cage / Quantic Dream always hit every note for me. Loved Omikron back in the day. Loved Fahrenheit. Loved Heavy Rain. Now I love Beyond Two Souls. I can't wait to see their next project.
StuBurns I think? There are a couple who hated Heavy Rain and loved Beyond. But still....don't buy it. Even though it's massively improved from Heavy Rain in areas that matter to you, you will still find a lot you won't like and probably hate the overall experience. It's not worth it to be honest to suffer through something. Maybe his next game with multiple writers might be more up your alley.Is there anyone who HATED Heavy Rain that ended up liking Beyond? Genuinely curious. That's the type of impression angle I'm looking for, to see a "why" there.
Fair enough. Your post suggested otherwise.Qué? Who told you that? Did I say that? No, I didn´t. Rented it, watched/played it, said this. That's just like, my opinion, man.
Yup, I've done some bad things in the past, b b but I try to redeem myself; torturing myself with things like Beyond is part of my penance. What can I say?
Knew it. Too many signs. Will look awesome and might consider buying a PS4 for it.Let's pretend that Beyond will be on the ps4.
Yep.