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Beyond: Two Souls Deserved Better Sales
- Thread starter Imbarkus
- Start date
in this particular case it's awkward, stilted dialog, largely disconnected scenes that jump back and forth in time for no real reason, unearned and unbelievable character arcs, and every cliche you can possibly imagine
beyond is david cage looking at popular modern media, taking the bits he liked, and throwing them into a single work without any thought for how it should come together or make sense
well, I was talking about writing in general.
dragonbane
Member
Definitely true, but I mean this kinda happens when you are interviewed on this topic and are invited to give speeches on this topic. It's not like he is throwing himself at the journalists, they ask him those questions. He is just sticking to his point, which is actually positive that he doesn't change his views every year like some other devs. It comes across as repetitive sure, but only because sites keep making articles about it fishing for hits. Maybe he should decline interviews? Probably a good idea for a while.
And reviewers definitely need to separate Cage from his games. Sterling's review opening with "it's hard to separate Cage from his products" was all I needed to know.
Not at all. I feel the same way.
Agreed. Touching scene.
It's still a good performance.
i'm not doubting that, it's just that william dafoe being unhinged in a videogame would've made me consider buying beyond: two souls..
SmoothRunningGun
Member
You compared it to a movie - it should cost the same as a movie.
Agent Matt
Member
Bought it.
Played it.
Loved it.
Played it.
Loved it.
dragonbane
Member
Yeah you won't be getting that outside of two scenes maybe. He plays a villain in a James Bond game though
A 8-12 hour long movie would probably have some kind of additional fee on top of it
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
1/4 of Heavy Rain's sales is 750,000. That's still very good.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Yeah you won't be getting that outside of two scenes maybe. He plays a villain in a James Bond game though
A 8-12 hour long movie would probably have some kind of additional fee on top of it
The reason people don't make 8-12 hour movies is because it is hard to make a good well-written story last that long in that format.
watched some clips on YT as well and I agree, these dialogues-situations are woefully cliche
I kind of tolerate Cage's attempts at making something different, but they should really tie him to a chair, in front of a 486 and games like Sherlock Holmes and the case of the serrated scalpel, The longest Journey and Loom, so maybe he will understand once for all that a story heavy game first of all needs to have a well written story
I kind of tolerate Cage's attempts at making something different, but they should really tie him to a chair, in front of a 486 and games like Sherlock Holmes and the case of the serrated scalpel, The longest Journey and Loom, so maybe he will understand once for all that a story heavy game first of all needs to have a well written story
synchronicity
Member
I bought Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy, but Cage's titles are just not the types of titles I'm interested in. I'm a gameplay first gamer, but I'm not so narrow minded that I can't enjoy other experiences that are less traditional. His works, however, are just poorly executed imo. When your selling point is 'interactive story', your story had better be top-notch. Unfortunately both Heavy Rain and Indigo Prophecy were mediocre in that regard, if I'm being kind.
staticneuron
Member
Because Aiden isn't.
What he can and cannot do are clearly defined and there is an explanation of who/what he is.
ShodanMAN
Member
Are you referring to this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co8e37Pc-lw#t=358
David Cage actually states some very good points at first, but it doesn't take long for his hypocrisy and pretentiousness to come front and center.
BrokenEchelon
Banned
A pretentious idiot made it.
dragonbane
Member
True, fortunately Beyond is still very much a game. It was fucking hard as shit to write though I assume, especially when you only have one year and no room for changes once you start. I look forward to what he can do with a team of writers similar to Telltale. I really love his tech demos where he can focus entirely on quality, since there isn't much to write. A team of writers will likely give him the same ability on a full game.
It's not like Heavy Rain sold 3m in 2 months. We will see how Beyond fares in the long run.
I've heard a lot of devs who talked to him in person mention that he is rather passionate instead of pretentious. Many agree with him and don't really feel like he is attacking them or their games. Maybe his opinion of his own games is too high? Not unfounded, since critical, commercial and consumer reception was very positive with Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain. Not so much with Beyond, so we will see how this influences him going forward.
I was very close to preordering it a while back, but I chose the economic path. Heavy Rain dropped in price fast. I'm waiting for this game to do the same. Walmart had it for $25 on Thanksgiving, but while I am willing to bite for that price I am not willing to die in black friday battles. So when I can find it new for $25 or less I will buy.
I think the biggest reasons are that no one wants to sit through something like that, and really you'd probably be better off making a short TV series out of that. Forcing breaks roughly every hour WOULD probably strengthen the pacing too, rather than treating the work as one giant block.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
You make some good points. I think most people only read some quotes and then hate Cage because of them. But there is a big difference between saying something because you are a douche or because you are passionate about the medium. Cage clearly falls into the latter category and I know a lot of people who grew to appreciate Cage after they attended one of his speeches and talked to him in person. He is pretty nice and humble actually. I also do think some things don't come across as he wants because of language issues. His French interviews are more enjoyable most of the time.
Mike Bithell, creator of Thomas Was Alone, for example:
Interesting. Hopefully next time I get the chance, I'll attend. I'm always down for not disliking people anymore.
I have zero interest in any story written by David Cage. He´s as dull as pretentious. Good writers, bad writers. And reading his interviews, I´m pretty sure he considers himself a visionary. Yeah, let´s be serious, Cage is nothing but a frustated movie director. Interactive cinema? Not for me.
Beyond is a bad movie and an awful game. It had what it deserved.
Beyond is a bad movie and an awful game. It had what it deserved.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
Well, he said of what Heavy Rain sold - not sold in the same time period. But who really knows.
dragonbane
Member
Going by information we have it did about 350k-450k in its first month. So right now after 2 months it probably sits at 450k-650k. Heavy Rain sold roughly 1m in its first month. Given Beyond had more advertising it definitely missed expectations. Is it a huge bomba? Probably not. Will it break even? Hopefully.
If you haven't played it, which I assume since you have no interest, you should be careful with such claims.
IncandescentPrecept
Banned
The budget for Beyond was 27M - I see it being profitable with those kind of numbers.
UltraGunner
Banned
I watched Matt and Pat play it, that's as far as I'll go when it comes to David Cage.
Felt like I got burned by Heavy Rain, so I decided to RedBox this one. Really glad I did.
I don't mind the story jumping and thought it was done ok. It could have been better if the "scenes" or chapters were more equal in length. The few longer scenes really slowed the game down.
They also just seemed like a bunch of cliches strung together trying to tell a single story. Most of the scenes I had a feeling how they would play out from the beginning and the brought little more to it.
Didn't care much for the most of the characters. The only one I really liked was the Dr working with Willem DaFoe (can't remember his name). The other character's I felt weren't consistent, Ryan was all over the place, Willem DaFoe's character was portrayed well but
. The homeless people and the Native American's are in a couple of the longest chapters, but that's it.
I also didn't feel like I missed anything when I played through. That would be good if this was a movie, but this is a game. That just made it so I didn't want to play through it again.
I really think if they would have trimmed the story to 4 hours, made it so that you might see the homeless section or the Navajo section and also made it so you went to either the snow action sequence or the Africa action sequence they could have given the illusion of more choice and I might have wanted replay it. As is, well, I only spent $5 and 10 hours on the game, that could have been squandered on worse...
I don't mind the story jumping and thought it was done ok. It could have been better if the "scenes" or chapters were more equal in length. The few longer scenes really slowed the game down.
They also just seemed like a bunch of cliches strung together trying to tell a single story. Most of the scenes I had a feeling how they would play out from the beginning and the brought little more to it.
Didn't care much for the most of the characters. The only one I really liked was the Dr working with Willem DaFoe (can't remember his name). The other character's I felt weren't consistent, Ryan was all over the place, Willem DaFoe's character was portrayed well but
if he had spent most of the main girl's life trying to accomplish his machine, why was it hidden for most of the game
I also didn't feel like I missed anything when I played through. That would be good if this was a movie, but this is a game. That just made it so I didn't want to play through it again.
I really think if they would have trimmed the story to 4 hours, made it so that you might see the homeless section or the Navajo section and also made it so you went to either the snow action sequence or the Africa action sequence they could have given the illusion of more choice and I might have wanted replay it. As is, well, I only spent $5 and 10 hours on the game, that could have been squandered on worse...
Did it though? Did it really?
After Heavy Rain I'm more inclined to think the sales were justified for Beyond and thanks to good marketing, Heavy Rain sold too much.
Most painful platinum ive ever achieved. This coming from someone who played the CSI games to completion for 1000GS.
After Heavy Rain I'm more inclined to think the sales were justified for Beyond and thanks to good marketing, Heavy Rain sold too much.
Most painful platinum ive ever achieved. This coming from someone who played the CSI games to completion for 1000GS.
Qué? Who told you that? Did I say that? No, I didn´t. Rented it, watched/played it, said this. That's just like, my opinion, man.
Yup, I've done some bad things in the past, b b but I try to redeem myself; torturing myself with things like Beyond is part of my penance. What can I say?
Son of Cervantes
Member
I bought it at launch, not having played Heavy Rain or any of his previous games before, but being intrigued by the setting, previews, and the whole idea of an interactive movie-type game - The Walking Dead showed that it could be done in an awesome way, so I figured this would be somewhat similar.
Nope. I hated it. SyFy miniseries quality story, really cheesy, overwrought writing (David Cage obviously watches a lot of American movies, the script is littered with movie cliches, from the very beginning with Willem Dafoe warning the SWAT team against trying to capture Jodie, getting ignored and going all "Bastards...goddamn bastards!"...the scene where he gets the news of his wife and daughter dying is just as bad "Accident...on the road...drunk driver..." wtf TALKS like that outside of a movie?! Dafoe was just awful all throughout, and I blame the script for that, not him.
Ellen Page did the best she could with the material she had, but holy shit, it was BAD material.
David Cage can't write his way out of a paper bag, and no matter how incredible the graphics are (and Beyond is a beautiful game, I can't believe it's a PS3 game, it looks like it should be on PS4!), it can't change the fact that the game itself is shit. I understand now why people describe Cage as a frustrated filmmaker - I feel he does these games because he's able to play with ideas in a very big scope - if Beyond was a film, it would have been a $200 million film, due to all the locations, action scenes, special effects, etc. Nobody would have let Cage NEAR a project like that...so instead he does games. Badly.
The worst part is I had a used copy of Heavy Rain I got for about 8 bucks...if I'd played it before buying Beyond, I probably would've known to have stay far, far away from the game.
Literally the only redeeming factors Beyond has are the graphics, the music and use of sound, and Ellen Page's performance. Everything that has to do with writing and gameplay (in other words everything David Cage is involved in) sucks really bad.
I'd love to play a game written by Chris Avellone or the Telltale Games guys and produced by Quantic Dream. Instead, since Cage runs QD, we're stuck with his shitty 'vision' for these games.
Nope. I hated it. SyFy miniseries quality story, really cheesy, overwrought writing (David Cage obviously watches a lot of American movies, the script is littered with movie cliches, from the very beginning with Willem Dafoe warning the SWAT team against trying to capture Jodie, getting ignored and going all "Bastards...goddamn bastards!"...the scene where he gets the news of his wife and daughter dying is just as bad "Accident...on the road...drunk driver..." wtf TALKS like that outside of a movie?! Dafoe was just awful all throughout, and I blame the script for that, not him.
Ellen Page did the best she could with the material she had, but holy shit, it was BAD material.
David Cage can't write his way out of a paper bag, and no matter how incredible the graphics are (and Beyond is a beautiful game, I can't believe it's a PS3 game, it looks like it should be on PS4!), it can't change the fact that the game itself is shit. I understand now why people describe Cage as a frustrated filmmaker - I feel he does these games because he's able to play with ideas in a very big scope - if Beyond was a film, it would have been a $200 million film, due to all the locations, action scenes, special effects, etc. Nobody would have let Cage NEAR a project like that...so instead he does games. Badly.
The worst part is I had a used copy of Heavy Rain I got for about 8 bucks...if I'd played it before buying Beyond, I probably would've known to have stay far, far away from the game.
Literally the only redeeming factors Beyond has are the graphics, the music and use of sound, and Ellen Page's performance. Everything that has to do with writing and gameplay (in other words everything David Cage is involved in) sucks really bad.
I'd love to play a game written by Chris Avellone or the Telltale Games guys and produced by Quantic Dream. Instead, since Cage runs QD, we're stuck with his shitty 'vision' for these games.
Evil Monkey DTT
Banned
Even for david cage it was too dumb to be honest. It physically hurt to watch by the end of it.
famousmortimer
Banned
Let's pretend that Beyond will be on the ps4.
Yep.
Yep.
Man it sounds even worse than Heavy Rain sometimes, but your experience with Beyond sounds like a continuation and amplification of everything that was wrong with that game. It's why I can't think it's a good idea to risk buying it, the vast majority of the people I talk to that had problems with Heavy Rain usually either have even more problems with Beyond or think it's just as bad.
Is there anyone who HATED Heavy Rain that ended up liking Beyond? Genuinely curious. That's the type of impression angle I'm looking for, to see a "why" there.
Son of Cervantes
Member
At first I was thinking since the game is like ten hours long, I could platinum it, but I honestly can't bring myself to replay it. It's too boring, too painful, I can't go through it again. So my trophies are stuck at 63% even though it's not a hard game to platinum...I just don't want to play it again.
RSB
Banned
Ohh, that argument again, just some guy that makes games because he won´t be allowed to direct movies? Yeeahh....suuuuure.
Beyond did indeed deserve much better sales, it may not be as smart and intense as Heavy Rain but it is still an amazing experience. The third best game i played all year.
He invites the suggestions all the time, talking about being inspired by Stanley Kubrick and David Fincher and meandering on and on during every Beyond interview about how games need to learn more from movies.
He literally cannot shut up about how much he wants to ape more and more things from movies. People may be extending the thought to a conclusion that is not necessarily the next step, but it's no surprise people think that. His
Son of Cervantes
Member
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it right there. The man thinks in Hollywood cliches. None of his characters feel like real people, they just feel like 'types' from Hollywood central casting. Like they have no inner life other than the role they're supposed to play in the story, aside from Jodie herself.
I'm thinking of trading in my steelbook edition and I NEVER trade in games, I'm a collector. That gives you an idea of how disappointed I was. :/ :\
It's even more insane when you actually consider his inspirations. Kubrick always showcased the hand of true genius, even in his earliest flawed works. David Cage showcases no such original vision or any such hints of talent; his best ideas come from elsewhere, and most of his execution is basically so miserable he's closer in realm to Uwe Boll.
David Fincher's Zodiac is probably the closest film to compare to Heavy Rain from those inspirations, and if you want to see exactly how far apart he is from legitimate cinematic talent, you should play Heavy Rain and then watch Zodiac right back to back. Zodiac is a flawed film and yet it murders Heavy Rain's execution and writing and acting and... well, everything, really. If ever a person wanted an illustration of why people think David Cage is such an amateur, they should try really comparing his works with that of his inspirations.
GavinUK86
Member
If it turns out it didn't sell too well then yes it definately deserved better sales. One of my favourite games this year. Maybe of this (last?) generation. Great story, great characters, great everything. Can't fault it. Played it through three times so far. Might be one of those games I replay every year because I like it so much.
David Cage / Quantic Dream always hit every note for me. Loved Omikron back in the day. Loved Fahrenheit. Loved Heavy Rain. Now I love Beyond Two Souls. I can't wait to see their next project.
David Cage / Quantic Dream always hit every note for me. Loved Omikron back in the day. Loved Fahrenheit. Loved Heavy Rain. Now I love Beyond Two Souls. I can't wait to see their next project.
dragonbane
Member
That would be nice.
That's actually an awesome suggestion. A lot of work, but awesome.
Heavy Rain had pretty bad marketing though.
Madison Paige
Member
I liked it quite a bit (not as much as Heavy Rain, but it was a decent Quantic Dream experience worth my $60). A friend of mine went to trade in his copy and only got $15 for it. I wonder if they're already cutting the price? If so, it's a damn shame. The game really does deserve better.
ShodanMAN
Member
A sequel to Omikron would definitely interest me. In my opinion Quantic Dream's best game,no question.
Sarcastico
Member
Beyond Two Souls seems like a step below the already mediocre Heavy Rain so I wasn't convinced it deserved me money.
dragonbane
Member
StuBurns I think? There are a couple who hated Heavy Rain and loved Beyond. But still....don't buy it. Even though it's massively improved from Heavy Rain in areas that matter to you, you will still find a lot you won't like and probably hate the overall experience. It's not worth it to be honest to suffer through something. Maybe his next game with multiple writers might be more up your alley.
Anyway since I uploaded it I will post this. It's an overview of a scene I really like in Beyond. A couple of spoilers, but nothing too bad. Although it doesn't do anything special in terms of graphics like some other scenes, it showcases what I mean with exploration being a big chunk of the game where story is not really in the foreground. It shows some of the things you can do in that scene with Jodie and Aiden (her spirit). Keep in mind that everything I do is pretty much optional. You don't have to go upstairs or do anything really, you can go outside almost immediately and advance the story. I really like mundane stuff and it's hard to describe what I feel during this. Also forgive some framerate issues, since my capture card is slowly dying. I edited out some of the walking parts and intentionally walk slow/stop at a scene to trigger a different event that can be avoided if you move faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE0xyyhJd-8
Fair enough. Your post suggested otherwise.
Knew it. Too many signs. Will look awesome and might consider buying a PS4 for it.