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[PairOfFilthySocks]

Point out on this box where Nuclear Monkey is credited or Narbacular Drop is even mentioned.


Not even a "Remember Wasteland?" tribute. The word Valve appears on the box almost as much as the word Portal.

Because...wait for it...Valve made it. The NB guys were hired by Valve...and then they helped make Portal. Hence...Valve made it. This is how companies work. Valve have not tried to hide the game's origins ever. You are just being obtuse because they don't have Narbacular Drop plastered all over the game's cover, due to your inability to comprehend how companies work.

Seems to me that people are disagreeing with this assessment. That Narbacular Drop was uplifted to the masses by the graces of Valve seems to be a reasonably popular notion.

They're not. You just can't understand.

No they bought their idea. The bought them outright because they came up with a cracking idea and any further ideas would be Valves ideas.

No. They hired the group. They did not just buy the idea, they hired the people behind it, too. This is business. This is logic. This cannot be argued.

You can hate Valve because they changed their License agreements of Steam games to be subscription-based to get around refunds.

You can hate Valve because they are expending so much energy creating an OS and custom hardware to move into a market that doesn't look terribly fruitful or interesting to the end-consumer.

You can hate Valve because they've turned their back on their original fans and thrown their lot in with the social multiplayer crowd(and you should get particularly upset about that line about HL design in the OP).

But no, instead you are going to hate Valve because of half-arsed, half-baked reasons you haven't thought through at all, and now that you've shown you haven't a clue what you're talking about, you're just going to remain stubborn and fart out obtuse, goal-post-moving arguments that aren't relevant at all. This argument is a waste of time.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I think it's funny the argument is over portal because we have a clear case of what portal looks like without valve. Quantum conundrum... wasn't that great. Portal has most to thank to Erik and Chet in my mind.

 

[Newblade]

I think it's funny the argument is over portal because we have a clear case of what portal looks like without valve. Quantum conundrum... wasn't that great. Portal has most to thank to Erik and Chet in my mind.

They should have credited Old Man Murray on the box then.

 

[SteveWinwood]

They should have credited Old Man Murray on the box then.

Maybe the doctors that helped Chet so he could work.

Or his parents.

 

[eXistor]

There's a giant single-player fanbase out there just waiting for new Valve sp experiences, you're literally throwing money away by not making them. HL3 would be a million-seller, easy. I'm one of many who has zero interest in their recent output. I'm baffled by Valve's thinking on this.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

I think it's funny the argument is over portal because we have a clear case of what portal looks like without valve. Quantum conundrum.

I was gonna post this earlier but then I decided not to.
You can even SEE the seeds of Quantum Conundrum's artstyle/aesthetic in the Narbacular Drop demo.

Obviously, there is no point what so ever in playing hypothetical but I personally see what I would characterize as an unmistakable similarity.

I don't think there is another organization in the world that could produce something as intriguing, beautiful, scary and laugh-out-loud-funny as Portal's world and identity.

 

[Chabbles]

"the key is to just continue to follow where the customers are leading."

Everybody stop playing online games on steam for a year, and convince gabe people are still interested in single player campaigns.. ffs

 

[paperspace]

Valve is basically just "the company that runs Steam" to me these days. Portal 2 was the last game they made that I was interested in.

You don't like Dota 2 or CSGO, got it.

 

[Nzyme32]

Point out on this box where Nuclear Monkey is credited or Narbacular Drop is even mentioned.

This is ridiculous. Narbacular drop is very different to portal except for bits of game mechanics. Those involved with Narbacular drop are credited in the games credits section as Valve employees (which they are and were when developing Portal, not Narbacular drop) along with the many other Valve employees involved in it's creation. You make it sound like Nuclear Monkey had no choice in the decision to be employed at Valve and discontinue Nuclear monkey. This isn't like bioware, that got swallowed by EA and work as their own entity to release games under the financing and restrictions of EA.

Also, the nuclear monkey guys were not "bought outright", they were employed. A studio and a group of people are not synonymous.

 

[SteveWinwood]

You don't like Dota 2 or CSGO, got it.

It's okay not to like things.

Granted if he ever makes a thread complaining about how games have low skill ceilings or how he wants a game that doesn't talk down to him or be ridiculously simple... and it's staring him in the face...

 

[BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO]

soooooooo HL3 with Journey esque muliplayer confirmed?

 

[Nzyme32]

soooooooo HL3 with Journey esque muliplayer confirmed?

You might be onto something there

 

[Ahasverus]

Half life 3 mmo confirmed.
And ugh, social gaming is the worst.
If I want my friends, I'll hang out with them, local mp is fine, online mp is fine bit absolutely not on the level of a lasting sp experience. With mp the thrill comes from the interaction between players, that is easier than thrilling from a designed experience.

 

[Orayn]

soooooooo HL3 with Journey esque muliplayer confirmed?

I could imagine them doing a separate co-op campaign similar in concept to Spartan Ops, but with a L4D-esque versus option and user-created levels in addition to official ones.

 

[Xanadu]

You don't like Dota 2 or CSGO, got it.

neither do i

 

[-SD-]

In other words: Valve has finally sold out.

Another long-time quality dev house bites the dust...

 

[Armaros]

In other words: Valve has finally sold out.

Another long-time quality dev house bites the dust...

Yes Dota 2 and CS:GO is the definition of selling out.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

In other words: Valve has finally sold out.

Another long-time quality dev house bites the dust...

Wait, what?

How are you even using that ridiculous phrase in this context?

By doing what they want?

Doing what they want is selling out?

 

[SteveWinwood]

In other words: Valve has finally sold out.

Another long-time quality dev house bites the dust...

Yes they're now public, beholden to shareholders, and going to be pumping out a corridor shooter every year.

 

[Son of Cervantes]

Valve to me is just the Steam guys, since I don't play Dota 2 or any of their other multiplayer-based games. I personally prefer GOG (due to being DRM-free), but it's hard to resist those Steam sales.

I gave up on Half-Life 3 a long time ago, and I think Valve did as well.

 

[Guy.brush]

I think the discussion is bigger than VALVe "selling out" or "loosing it" or "shifting focus".

HL and HL² are regarded as milestones on gaming's long road to be recognized as a legitimate art form.
When even VALVe let's go of the notion of completed, self-contained single-player experiences in favor of social/MMO games it feels like the battle to be seen as an artform has already been lost. Sacrificed at the altar of social multiplayer "service-oriented" experiences.
If games become more and more like ongoing, never-completed services with shifting rules, content and experiences (DOTA, TF2), how can you ever really have them heaved onto an art pedestal next to movies?

 

[Orayn]

I think the discussion is bigger than VALVe "selling out" or "loosing it" or "shifting focus".

HL and HL² are regarded as milestones on gaming's long road to be recognized as a legitimate art form.
When even VALVe let's go of the notion of completed, self-contained single-player experiences in favor of social/MMO games it feels like the battle to be seen as an artform has already been lost. Killed at the althar of social multiplayer "service-oriented" experiences.
If games become more and more like ongoing, never-completed services with shifting rules, content and experiences (DOTA, TF2), how can you ever really have them heaved onto an art pedestal next to movies?

Who says that there's any one type of artistic experience that all games needs to aspire to? You may not be personally interested in esports, but that shouldn't stop you from recognizing that Dota 2 is a pretty big achievement.

 

[that1dude24]

dota 2 is a beautiful depiction of the human condition

 

[Spookie]

In other words: Valve has finally sold out.

Another long-time quality dev house bites the dust...

You mean they are no longer supporting their games with free updates and giving money to people who create content for their games? Damn.

If games become more and more like ongoing, never-completed services with shifting rules, content and experiences (DOTA, TF2), how can you ever really have them heaved onto an art pedestal next to movies?

You can't. But there are plenty of games which will be closed and short arty experences. Valve just isn't making any of them at the moment.

 

[-SD-]

Wait, what?

How are you even using that ridiculous phrase in this context?

Despite Portal and Portal 2, I've been disappointed at Valve, these days. They haven't released games since HL2: E2 that I'd be truly interested in playing.

So, yeah, a bit of a selfish and unnecessarily rough statement from me, but hey... I'm frustrated as heck. I'm in desperate need of a quality gaming fix, and Valve surely is one of the companies that could help me out.

 

[Armaros]

You mean they are no longer supporting their games with free updates and giving money to people who create content for their games? Damn.

enough money to support themselves on their created content full time.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Despite Portal and Portal 2, I've been disappointed at Valve, these days. They haven't released games since HL2: E2 that I'd be truly interested in playing.

So, yeah, a bit of a selfish and unnecessarily rough statement from me, but hey... I'm frustrated as heck. I'm in desperate need of a quality gaming fix, and Valve surely is one of the companies that could help me out.

You want a quality game that will last you the rest of your life? Boy does valve have a title for you.

 

[Lotto]

Hey, for Valve's first foray into something other than a first-person perspective (if you don't count Alien Swarm), I'm pretty goddamned happy. Dota 2's core gameplay is great and they understand that, but I'm still crazy anticipating custom map tools and waiting for the mod scene to really explode ala WC3 custom maps. There's still chances of failure though if they don't be careful with how (and if) they monetize it, but I'm much more optimistic that Valve won't screw it up completely.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Despite Portal and Portal 2, I've been disappointed at Valve, these days. They haven't released games since HL2: E2 that I'd be truly interested in playing.

So, yeah, a bit of a selfish and unnecessarily rough statement from me, but hey... I'm frustrated as heck. I'm in desperate need of a quality gaming fix, and Valve surely is one of the companies that could help me out.

But daddy, I WANT A WILLY WONKA GOLDEN TICKET.

 

[-SD-]

But daddy, I WANT A WILLY WONKA GOLDEN TICKET.

No need to have that sort of an attitude, my friend.

 

[NervousXtian]

I never cease to be amused at how so many people think this is a bad thing.

Oh no, Valve has offered talented young devs with great ideas a budget and studio position to die for! The horror!

Makes no sense.

I don't think buying up good ideas and fully fleshing them out is inherently bad... it's given us some great games and it's smart money by Valve.

Yet to me it calls in to question Valves style of management and development. Despite what would be considered a outstanding level of talent both creatively and technically.. they haven't had a new idea internally that was conceived in house and released since 2007 with Ep2. Every single release, including Alien Swarm was based on something that someone OUTSIDE of Valve first conceived.

Think about that. In over 6 years, not one single creative internally developed thing has came out of Valve.

They've had solid production, some great games come out, and you won't ever catch me say that dota2, TF2, Portal 1/2, L4D1/2 aren't solid games... they are.

Yet if someone is looking at them as the company that is set to release a new Half-Life... there's a lot to be worried about. They've moved so far away from the company that created HL1/2/Episodes.

..yet NOT released a new Half-Life is a bad idea in my eyes as well.. as Half-Life 2 was the breeding ground for the engine and innovations that helped make TF2, Garry's Mod, L4D, etc.... I don't think L4D3 unless it ventures into a COMPLETELY new territory.. which without dropping the 4 part I'm not sure is entirely possible.... is the right thing to showcase Source 2 and what it can do.

Half-Life pushed made Valve push Source to a certain level to accomplish things... I'm not sure L4D3 would allow that kind of innovation.. hopefully I'm wrong.

My mind travels to a DayZ style Valve game with that Valve polish.. and make it F2P with hats.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

^I was sorta under the impression that literally every product in Valve's stable is based in some form or another on an external acquisition. With the exception of Half-Life, of course.


*edit:
And to imply that is in anyway bad or unnoble or creatively bankrupt or whatever completely misses the point. Nobody but Valve could have made those games.

 

[Painraze]

In other words: Valve has finally sold out.

Another long-time quality dev house bites the dust...

These drive-by posts are hilarious and sad at the same time.

 

[NervousXtian]

You want a quality game that will last you the rest of your life? Boy does valve have a title for you.

What exactly are you trying to do here other than trolling people who wish Valve put at least an ounce of focus on SP experiences?

You keep saying HL3 is proven to exist... but there's good reason to be skeptical of the link that was posted. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... having people on a team doesn't mean anything is actually being worked on... not like Source 2 which we know is being at least worked on.

So basically all you've been doing in this thread is being an ass to people who have different tastes in games than you.

You like dota2... good for you. Being an ass to people who aren't interested in Valves MP/Social gaming that's been done in the past 6 years does little further any discussion in this thread... because at this point you're nothing more than just a troll trying to scream "my opinion is right, you're wrong".

Your shtick is old and tired at this point.

^I was sorta under the impression that literally every product in Valve's stable is based in some form or another on an external acquisition. With the exception of Half-Life, of course.


*edit:
And to imply that is in anyway bad or unnoble or creatively bankrupt or whatever completely misses the point. Nobody but Valve could have made those games.

...and yes that is true. Both of your statements honestly... except I believe 100% it's fair to say that Valve hasn't produced a truly innovative gameplay idea of there own in years that's actually been released. With all that talent on hand, it's easy for a Half-Life fan to be disappointed, despite the quality of the things that have been released since HL2 and the Episodes.

 

[Painraze]

What exactly are you trying to do here other than trolling people who wish Valve put at least an ounce of focus on SP experiences?

They released Portal 2 in 2011. All signs point to HL3 being developed. The hell are you talking about?

 

[angular graphics]

I don't think buying up good ideas and fully fleshing them out is inherently bad... it's given us some great games and it's smart money by Valve.

Yet to me it calls in to question Valves style of management and development. Despite what would be considered a outstanding level of talent both creatively and technically.. they haven't had a new idea internally that was conceived in house and released since 2007 with Ep2. Every single release, including Alien Swarm was based on something that someone OUTSIDE of Valve first conceived.

Think about that. In over 6 years, not one single creative internally developed thing has came out of Valve.

They've had solid production, some great games come out, and you won't ever catch me say that dota2, TF2, Portal 1/2, L4D1/2 aren't solid games... they are.

Yet if someone is looking at them as the company that is set to release a new Half-Life... there's a lot to be worried about. They've moved so far away from the company that created HL1/2/Episodes.

..yet NOT released a new Half-Life is a bad idea in my eyes as well.. as Half-Life 2 was the breeding ground for the engine and innovations that helped make TF2, Garry's Mod, L4D, etc.... I don't think L4D3 unless it ventures into a COMPLETELY new territory.. which without dropping the 4 part I'm not sure is entirely possible.... is the right thing to showcase Source 2 and what it can do.

Half-Life pushed made Valve push Source to a certain level to accomplish things... I'm not sure L4D3 would allow that kind of innovation.. hopefully I'm wrong.

My mind travels to a DayZ style Valve game with that Valve polish.. and make it F2P with hats.

Recently they have had original ideas but the games were eventually cancelled ("Fairy", Stars of Blood, F-Stop).

For them to make a game based on an original idea, you likely wouldn't have L4D2, or you wouldn't have Dota 2, or you wouldn't have HL2.

They couldn't possibly make all those games AND the original ideas as well.. or they would have already.

And I would argue TF2 is as much of a new game as it could be. It's not like CS where even GO plays pretty much the same as the first one.

 

[Armaros]

They released Portal 2 in 2011. All signs point to HL3 being developed. The hell are you talking about?

but that doesn't count

 

[Orayn]

I think we all need to remind ourselves that the original idea is the only thing that matters about a game, as no interesting concept has ever been ruined by sloppy execution, amateur mistakes, or lack of resources. Games practically spring fully formed from their creators' minds, with the "development" process being completely idiot-proof and a mere formality. Valve literally poached most of their games and added less than nothing by turning them from hobby projects and prototypes into full-fledged releases.

 

[injurai]

There are many reasons why Valve hasn't made it a priority.

At this point the series is so praised and acclaimed that if HL3 were to flop it would significantly hurt them as a developer. I certain that they are putting in a lot of infrastructure work in general with Source 2, and in their R&D micro-projects to better feel out what it is that would work as HL3.

It comes down to performance anxiety, and distraction at valve. It seems to be a good thing in terms of the game, not so much the wait time.

 

[angular graphics]

What exactly are you trying to do here other than trolling people who wish Valve put at least an ounce of focus on SP experiences?

You keep saying HL3 is proven to exist... but there's good reason to be skeptical of the link that was posted. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't... having people on a team doesn't mean anything is actually being worked on... not like Source 2 which we know is being at least worked on.

And where's the press release about that?

You got a few references Gabe made about their next engine and then you have got some leaked icons and the names of the people that work on it.

Which is about the same info you have about HL3.

If you are skeptical about HL3, you should be skeptical about Source 2 existing as well.

 

[NervousXtian]

They released Portal 2 in 2011. All signs point to HL3 being developed. The hell are you talking about?

I've acknowledged Portal 2. Great game. It's now 2014 without any proper announcements of anything being worked on in that direction. We've heard more rumor of L4D3 than anything SP oriented.

Recently they have had original ideas but the games were eventually cancelled ("Fairy", Stars of Blood, F-Stop).

For them to make a game based on an original idea, you likely wouldn't have L4D2, or you wouldn't have Dota 2, or you wouldn't have HL2.

They couldn't possibly make all those games AND the original ideas as well.. or they would have already.

And I would argue TF2 is as much of a new game as it could be. It's not like CS where even GO plays pretty much the same as the first one.

TF2 was a great surprise, as through all the delays who would have thought that we'd end up with what we did? ...yet.. it first came out in 2007.. it's evolved.. but again. It's been a long time.

Those cancelled games is what I'm getting at, and why I always put the qualifier of "released" when talking about creativity from Valve. We've heard rumors of the cancelled behind the scenes things.. but we never truly saw them.. and they never released.

Is it telling that none of those projects came to fruition? Maybe they just weren't up to Valve standards.. which is likely... but why did they fail to full be fleshed out and released?

Even Portal 2 with all the co-op + hats like stuff sends a message of the direction that is somewhat worrisome for people looking for that solid SP experience.

There's good reason for someone to be worried that we won't see return to Half-Life or it's like again anytime soon.. because everything for the past 6 or 7 years has been Valve moving in a much different direction as a company.. and reading things like what Gaben said in the OP... just fuel for that fire.

 

[ashecitism]

I don't think L4D3 unless it ventures into a COMPLETELY new territory.. which without dropping the 4 part I'm not sure is entirely possible.... is the right thing to showcase Source 2 and what it can do.

Half-Life pushed made Valve push Source to a certain level to accomplish things... I'm not sure L4D3 would allow that kind of innovation.. hopefully I'm wrong.

My mind travels to a DayZ style Valve game with that Valve polish.. and make it F2P with hats.

I'm not sure what to expect from L4D3 at this point. Church's and Hocking's involvement made me hopeful they would shake the formula up a bit, but with the latter gone, I just don't know. It might just end up as a completely safe sequel on a new engine and that's that or maybe something more. Feature-wise at the least I'm expecting the ability to output lots of stuff on screen and streaming, but it's not like these would be groundbreaking, more like "about time".

 

[angular graphics]

I've acknowledged Portal 2. Great game. It's now 2014 without any proper announcements of anything being worked on in that direction. We've heard more rumor of L4D3 than anything SP oriented.

Not true. We've heard about L4D3 as much as we've heard about HL3, an SP oriented game. Namely the lists of the people working on them have been leaked.

Those cancelled games is what I'm getting at, and why I always put the qualifier of "released" when talking about creativity from Valve. We've heard rumors of the cancelled behind the scenes things.. but we never truly saw them.. and they never released.

Is it telling that none of those projects came to fruition? Maybe they just weren't up to Valve standards.. which is likely... but why did they fail to full be fleshed out and released?

Not at all. It is very common in the industry.

 

[Jobbs]

But daddy, I WANT A WILLY WONKA GOLDEN TICKET.

It's only entitled bratty kids asking for any kind of resolution to the cliffhanger they left hanging in episode 2 in 2007.

They, at most, care very very little about their customers who are fans of that game and want a resolution. Why? Because they could easily have made an episode 3 or a Half-Life 3 since then, and have not. At best, they care very little. Their actions speak.

 

[angular graphics]

It's only entitled bratty kids asking for any kind of resolution to the cliffhanger they left hanging in episode 2 in 2007.

They, at most, care very very little about their customers who are fans of that game and want a resolution. Why? Because they could easily have made an episode 3 or a Half-Life 3 since then, and have not. At best, they care very little. Their actions speak.

I assume you are talking from experience.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

I don't see why they can't do both. As Gabe said:



As Portal 2 has shown, if the talent at Valve wants to make a single player focused game they are still very able to do so. They just have to want to do it.

So, no talent wants to work on HL3?

 

[Jobbs]

I assume you are talking from experience.

I'm not sure what you mean. But if you say you're going to make a trilogy, and just stop at episode 2, with a massive cliffhanger, at that -- And then don't ever follow up in any way after 7 years, despite having all the resources you'd ever need to do so -- This means you aren't prioritizing fans' desires very highly. I don't see how it means anything else. I'd be open to hearing an explanation of how my logic is flawed, but that's how I see it.

 

[Painraze]

I'm not sure what you mean. But if you say you're going to make a trilogy, and just stop at episode 2, with a massive cliffhanger, at that -- And then don't ever follow up in any way after 7 years, despite having all the resources you'd ever need to do so -- This means you don't care very much about the fans of that game. I don't see how it means anything else. I'd be open to hearing an explanation of how my logic is flawed, but that's how I see it.

Maybe you shouldn't take it so personally.

 

[angular graphics]

I'm not sure what you mean. But if you say you're going to make a trilogy, and just stop at episode 2, with a massive cliffhanger, at that -- And then don't ever follow up in any way after 7 years, despite having all the resources you'd ever need to do so -- This means you don't care very much about the fans of that game. I don't see how it means anything else. I'd be open to hearing an explanation of how my logic is flawed, but that's how I see it.

They are working on it right now #truthfact. You would be right if they had stopped. They have not. Therefore they care.

 

[morningbus]

You know, besides literally every single game Valve has made, Valve hasn't really put out anything that interests me.