RealDeadOne
Member
Wow, this is actually a pretty important update. Characters, items and stages are all nice, but stuff like this is what will affect the game long after it's released.
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Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Hmm, this makes more sense given the context of the photo. I was thinking he just felt like talking a bit about the general structure/technicalities today.
Dammit Sakurai, play a match with some folks and put it up for us to dissect already.
Edge-hogging just became a whole lot tougher with this new "trump" element we see Link using. The big question is... Does it go through invincibility? That is, as soon as Mario grabs the ledge, he has some invincibility frames. If Link can "trump" Mario's grab, even when he's invincible, that just made Link's recovery a WHOLE lot better, and Mario basically can't edgehog Link anymore. This should buff Link's clawshot recovery too, since it was basically useless in Brawl if someone was grabbing the ledge while attempting to use it.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Pic of the day. There are many changes being made to attack and defense options for grabbing edges. In this picture, Link is actually trumping Mario's grab.
hmm I wish this pic was in motion so I can see what sakurai is referring to.
C.Olimar788
Member
On one hand, it's nice to see that he's playing with how invincibility on the ledge works. Being able to stall on the ledge was a huge problem in Brawl, and sometimes even reared its head in Melee and PM.
On the other, I reaaaaally don't like the idea of a characters being able to "trump" another's ledge grab, effectively making edgehogging nonexistent. That's... kind of a huge big deal and will completely alter the ledge game, quite possibly for the worse. Nixing different ledge actions after 100% also seems like a weird move, and detrimental to ledge game as well as potentially making it easier to recovery at high percentages - one of the biggest issues that Brawl already had.
I hope you know what you're doing, Sakurai.
On the other, I reaaaaally don't like the idea of a characters being able to "trump" another's ledge grab, effectively making edgehogging nonexistent. That's... kind of a huge big deal and will completely alter the ledge game, quite possibly for the worse. Nixing different ledge actions after 100% also seems like a weird move, and detrimental to ledge game as well as potentially making it easier to recovery at high percentages - one of the biggest issues that Brawl already had.
I hope you know what you're doing, Sakurai.
Because after Brawl, I reaaaaaaally don't think you do...
I wonder what this means when you're in a helpless state. Some characters in Brawl are pretty susceptible to being rushed off stage with aerial attacks to a point where they'll not be able to make it back (no matter the damage percent) because the opponent will then hog the ledge.
This is a pretty big buff for everyone's recovery if they can take back ledges in helpless.
This is a pretty big buff for everyone's recovery if they can take back ledges in helpless.
Smashman45
Member
Seems to be a lot bigger than it sounded initially. I like these little technical tidbits Sakurai's bringing out. Sh*t, I wanna see a vid of this change....
Supposedly link stole the ledge while mario was already grabbing it lol.
Whiskeymatt
Member
Oh god Sakurai just made a significant metagame post WHAT IS HAPPENING
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
yeah idk if im out of it today but can somebody break it down as ot what sakurai means by these comments?
-Air time and accumulated damage will determine your period of invincibility while hanging on an edge.
This one is really fucking weird, and I don't think I like it. The way ledge invincibility worked before was fine (the same no matter what).
What is air time exactly? Time not on the ground? So if, say, Marth forward throws Mario at 0% near the ledge, and Mario grabs the ledge in less than 1 second, now at 6%... he has a ton of invincibility? no invincibility?
contrast that to Meta Knight getting f-tilted by Snake at like 150%. he goes flying, uses 5 jumps and his glide to get back to the ledge. do he have a ton of invincibility? basically no invincibility?
I honestly don't know which way is the right way to balance it (high air time/damage = lots of invincibility? barely any invincibility?)
-Grab controls will no longer be affected by whether you have above or below 100% damage.
This one I'm fine with. Gives the player a safer way to return to the stage at higher damage, I guess. Kinda makes me believe high air time/damage will result in more invincibility, though. Dat Sakurai logic (the losing player needs all the help they can get!)
I think it's like
Mario is grabbing the ledge, then Link goes to grab the ledge, and forces Mario to get off. In Brawl, you would just miss the ledge since it's occupied. In Smash 4, Link steals the ledge from Mario. but Mario can't do the same to Link, because Link "trumps" Mario. I guess.
This one is really fucking weird, and I don't think I like it. The way ledge invincibility worked before was fine (the same no matter what).
What is air time exactly? Time not on the ground? So if, say, Marth forward throws Mario at 0% near the ledge, and Mario grabs the ledge in less than 1 second, now at 6%... he has a ton of invincibility? no invincibility?
contrast that to Meta Knight getting f-tilted by Snake at like 150%. he goes flying, uses 5 jumps and his glide to get back to the ledge. do he have a ton of invincibility? basically no invincibility?
I honestly don't know which way is the right way to balance it (high air time/damage = lots of invincibility? barely any invincibility?)
-Grab controls will no longer be affected by whether you have above or below 100% damage.
This one I'm fine with. Gives the player a safer way to return to the stage at higher damage, I guess. Kinda makes me believe high air time/damage will result in more invincibility, though. Dat Sakurai logic (the losing player needs all the help they can get!)
I think it's like
Mario is grabbing the ledge, then Link goes to grab the ledge, and forces Mario to get off. In Brawl, you would just miss the ledge since it's occupied. In Smash 4, Link steals the ledge from Mario. but Mario can't do the same to Link, because Link "trumps" Mario. I guess.
RomanceDawn
Member
It sounds to me like one can do the fast or slow ledge attack if one chooses. Rather than it being decided by percent.
My theory is that "over powered" recoveries and characters that can jump an insane number of times will be at a slight disadvantage when they get blasted farther off stage. I imagine the longer you stay afloat out there the worse your invincibility frames are when you make it back to the ledge.
This effectively gives crap recoveries from guys like Ganondorf, Link etc a bit of a buff when they actually make it back because they can't stay in the air nearly as long as other characters. Seems like a good balance! In theory
My theory is that "over powered" recoveries and characters that can jump an insane number of times will be at a slight disadvantage when they get blasted farther off stage. I imagine the longer you stay afloat out there the worse your invincibility frames are when you make it back to the ledge.
This effectively gives crap recoveries from guys like Ganondorf, Link etc a bit of a buff when they actually make it back because they can't stay in the air nearly as long as other characters. Seems like a good balance! In theory
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I think im getting it kinda.
I'M FINISHED!
Um exCUSE me Sakurai but CLEARLY the best choice for Smash Bros would be my fav niche character HOWEVER you are clearly INCOMPETENT and
Abra-abra-cadabra
I want to reach out and grab ya
Abra-abra-cadabra
Abracadabra
I'm too tired to properly process this information, but it seems like a potential game changer.
I want to reach out and grab ya
Abra-abra-cadabra
Abracadabra
I'm too tired to properly process this information, but it seems like a potential game changer.
I'm thinking the longer you're in the air, the longer your invincibility.
I can imagine there being barely any invincibility if you just instantly edge-hog, so you'll get grabbed out of it and possibly edge-hogged yourself because of the long invincibility your opponent will now get from having longer air time (this of-course applies to a situation where you've knocked your opponent away).
I think this change was made in order to stop abuse of certain defensive options that stalled matches, like Meta Knight... who can grab the ledge, let go, chain 2 up-airs and re-grab the ledge ALL while in invincibility frames. There is barely anything you can do, and it's done in tournaments a lot.
This update appears to have fixed these annoying issues.
I can imagine there being barely any invincibility if you just instantly edge-hog, so you'll get grabbed out of it and possibly edge-hogged yourself because of the long invincibility your opponent will now get from having longer air time (this of-course applies to a situation where you've knocked your opponent away).
I think this change was made in order to stop abuse of certain defensive options that stalled matches, like Meta Knight... who can grab the ledge, let go, chain 2 up-airs and re-grab the ledge ALL while in invincibility frames. There is barely anything you can do, and it's done in tournaments a lot.
This update appears to have fixed these annoying issues.
Masked Man
I said wow
So I guess we should go to Flynn for all future update predictions. 
Seriously, though, sounds like some cool changes! This should make for some interesting new edgeguarding (edgetrumping?) tactics.
Seriously, though, sounds like some cool changes! This should make for some interesting new edgeguarding (edgetrumping?) tactics.
StreetsAhead
Member
I don't get that impression at all.
"Trump" is a confusing choice of words. The Japanese simply implies Link is 'stealing' the ledge, not that the characters have inherent 'trump' tiers.
If that's the case, this is a great change.
megarockexe
Member
So did damage percentage have anything to do with grabbing ledges in Brawl? This seems like a strange new concept and I wonder what prevents the ledge grabbers from basically just juggling each other on the ledge, assuming it's about as airy as Brawl.
SenorArdilla
Member
Would it be better if Link looked as though he was pulling Mario off the ledge?
Whiskeymatt
Member
What if the recovering players "trumps" the edge hogger, but only if the edge hogger has already gone through their invincibility frames? I think that could work.
Yea I'm not sure if it will work in reverse or not lol. You never know with Sakurai.
So I guess we should go to Flynn for all future update predictions.
Seriously, though, sounds like some cool changes! This should make for some interesting new edgeguarding (edgetrumping?) tactics.
Hehe, it's nice to know that opponents that run to the ledge a lot (I have friends who do this) will now eat a Marth d-tilt to the face.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
This update only refers to grabbing ledges, not characters.
I think Streets disagreed with the "Mario can't trump Link" bit. It doesn't seem to imply that, in my opinion.
StreetsAhead
Member
From the language, not the image.
Unless I'm misinterpreting Anth0ny, I don't think that 'Link trumps Mario' is an inherent part of the characters, just this particular instance.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
I dont think how much anyone tries to explain it I wont grasp it until I play and feel the changes myself.
SkullHydra
Member
This is a much more interesting update than most of the daily images we get. I wish he would've been more clear about it though. =/
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
I think sakurai is going to need to uplaod a video to miiverse to further explain it, I havent read the miiverse comments but I can see alot of people getting confused by this.
Perhaps "trumping" just means that once you're not invincible on the ledge, somebody else can grab it and knock you off, rather than having to hit you off.
Sounds like it would make edgehogging harder, but not impossible, as your time to do so would be limited.
As for the invincibility time changing... maybe it's to prevent dropping down and instantly getting back on the ledge, so there's basically no invincibility if you just left the ground, while if you were in the air for a while, you'd be invincible longer. It acts as a comeback mechanic if you're trying to recover (which Sakurai likes), but it prevents stalling below the ledge (which is a boon for the competitive players).
Seems like it helps both parties. The only thing to think about is how damage affects it.
Sounds like it would make edgehogging harder, but not impossible, as your time to do so would be limited.
As for the invincibility time changing... maybe it's to prevent dropping down and instantly getting back on the ledge, so there's basically no invincibility if you just left the ground, while if you were in the air for a while, you'd be invincible longer. It acts as a comeback mechanic if you're trying to recover (which Sakurai likes), but it prevents stalling below the ledge (which is a boon for the competitive players).
Seems like it helps both parties. The only thing to think about is how damage affects it.
That's what I'm thinking. It may force the player to time their edge hogging much more accurately than before.
I think I like this if this is how it is.
You make a good point about the timing and it also depends on damage so that could also effect who has the real advantage in the end.
Ah okay that clears it up a bit. The fact Sakurai is talking about mechanics is probably a sign for things to come. I mean... I'm really hoping he fixes the issues Brawl had.
Also, unrelated to mechanics but I sure hope Pokeballs doesn't have that dumb 3 limit anymore. Also hoping the chaotic Pokemon are at least somewhat common again. I always love the chaos in those fights.
He actually confirmed tripping's removal a few months ago :O
Also, unrelated to mechanics but I sure hope Pokeballs doesn't have that dumb 3 limit anymore. Also hoping the chaotic Pokemon are at least somewhat common again. I always love the chaos in those fights.
He actually confirmed tripping's removal a few months ago :O
SenorArdilla
Member
That would also solve the issue of characters that get edgehogged constantly, like Olimar, Yoshi, and ZSS.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
If they just made Olimar's Up B useful for recovery then GOD DAMN I'M LOVING THIS!
MrSaturn99
Member
If the theory of there only being up to three Pikmin at a time, it's likely his recovery will be changed.
Keep in mind that he's not the only one with input on gameplay development like he was in Brawl.