Support NeoGAF

[shamanick]

From the article:

GC: Okay, that’s fine. I think we can all read between those lines. But that’s absurd, how can they not except any journalist, any reasonable journalist, not to ask that question? It’s what everyone wants to know.

MR: [still feeling very awkward] The key thing is we try to focus people away from that sort of thing and try to focus them on the fact that the game is fun no matter what platform it’s on.

Unbelievable.

How can any self-respecting "journalist" read this and not see how fucking unacceptable this is?

 

[Ploid 3.0]

Wow at that article! Game Devs muzzled about hardware deficiencies confirmed!

Makes you wonder if game journalists are also muzzled, not all but some. Like for this Adam video, it seem like he wasn't allowed to say that the Xbox one version was in 720p but went further to say it was uprezed 1080p, which sounds like it's also 1080p and isn't upscaled. Resolution upped to 1080p.

 

[Curufinwe]

So at the end of the day, and assuming the x1 version wont have framerate issues like the 360 (PS4 and PS3 version have horrible fps)

Would you rather have

PS4 version with 1080p, weaker framerate and potentially worse textures
x1 version with 720p, rock solid framerate and better textures (and better online)

Why would the Xbone version have better textures?

 

[avaya]

>_>

Source on this stuff?

tales from my ass

 

[UrbanRats]

If you want to see a games journalist asking some really tough questions give this a read.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/05/call-...-that-were-not-allowed-to-talk-about-4173810/

Ah ah, he just wouldn't leave it alone, so refreshing to read.

 

[Quixzlizx]

What do arguments about the importance of game design/art direction/animation over resolution have to do with two different versions of the same game performing differently?

 

[Faustek]

If you look at something like trucks, one manufacturer always has a truck with more horsepower than the others. It is certainly on the spec sheets and mentioned by auto journalists, but let's face it they are both trucks. They haul stuff and pull stuff and do what trucks do.

The XB1 and PS4 both play games marvelously. They are both "trucks" and the job of gaming journalists is not to argue about horsepower, it's about describing how well the trucks function at their jobs. So while an F-150 may have more horsepower, a Ram has better cargo loading. What's the point of arguing horsepower as long as they get the job done?

In the case of Nintendo, they decided to stop selling trucks and started selling something like a truck... Maybe a crossover.

So as long as I'm seeing that the XB1 is able to deliver a quality gaming experience (it does) than journalists should move on to more consumer driven features.

I'm just not seeing the outrage here... It's like you guys are saying the XB1 isn't worthy of being classified a gaming console.

Yeah and when both trucks hop on Autobahn the other will fall far behind and requires more gas to get to the same destination. But lets ignore that. -.-

So at the end of the day, and assuming the x1 version wont have framerate issues like the 360 (PS4 and PS3 version have horrible fps)

Would you rather have

PS4 version with 1080p, weaker framerate and potentially worse textures
x1 version with 720p, rock solid framerate and better textures (and better online)

.......Cough medicine again?

 

[QuicheFontaine]

What do arguments about the importance of game design/art direction/animation over resolution have to do with two different versions of the same game performing differently?

I feel like we have to say this on every page of every one of these threads. Some people just don't seem to get it.

 

[Kalren]

And yet we get 50 page threads talking about resolution.

The first post of this thread is not about COD having a different resolution but the dismissal of resolution in contrast to previous statements from a member of the media.

But hey, lets continue with the strawman.

 

[mentallyinept]

tales from my ass

Pretty much.

I was hoping to see mrtapout try to dance around that post though.

 

[Mass Effect]

So at the end of the day, and assuming the x1 version wont have framerate issues like the 360 (PS4 and PS3 version have horrible fps)

Would you rather have

PS4 version with 1080p, weaker framerate and potentially worse textures
x1 version with 720p, rock solid framerate and better textures (and better online)

versions of what? a game that doesn't exist?

 

[BruiserBear]

From the article:



Unbelievable.

Developers do sign NDA's regarding each console's SDK. They're not allowed to shit on one, and frankly, it wouldn't be smart to shit on one version of the game they're trying to sell. So they keep their mouths shut for the most part. Only talking in vague diplomatic ways.

This is one of the reasons it's always funny when people try and use a developer quote of them saying "both consoles are about the same" as proof that both consoles are actually equal. Developer really aren't allowed to tell you the consoles aren't equal, and that's why stories written on that topic usually include anonymous quotes and sources.

 

[daman824]

How can any self-respecting "journalist" read this and not see how fucking unacceptable this is?

Because it's nothing new. That happened last gen too.Journalists probably realize that people can easily find the truth out without asking the games developers.

It sucks that decs are kept under such tight NDA. But it's been around for a while.

 

[reson8or]

I just ask myself one question: If the Shu was on the other foot, would these same journalists be saying the same thing about the PS4? I look at current gen and get the answer, and it is disheartening.

 

[Nestersan]

They are just refusing to process it because accepting it would mean admitting that so far the PS4 has more capable hardware and no "secret sauce" is forthcoming.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

So at the end of the day, and assuming the x1 version wont have framerate issues like the 360 (PS4 and PS3 version have horrible fps)

Would you rather have

PS4 version with 1080p, weaker framerate and potentially worse textures
x1 version with 720p, rock solid framerate and better textures (and better online)

But the reality is

PS4 version with 1080p, better framerates, better textures, and better effects.
x1 version with 720p, similar, but lower framerates, similar textures, and less effects.

Online differences are negligible.

 

[xxracerxx]

Would you rather have

PS4 version with 1080p, weaker framerate and potentially worse textures
x1 version with 720p, rock solid framerate and better textures (and better online)

Better online? What the fuck?

 

[Nymphae]

I would look at it like this:

Two car dealerships across from each other selling Porsches:
Dealer A says you can get a current year model for $60,000 stock.
Dealer B says $50,000 for same model and year with an upgraded engine and suspension.

Everything else being equal, who the hell would buy from Dealer A ?

At present we aren't even talking about XBL vs PSN, we are talking about pure performance and value for money. I don't get what about that the "journalists" don't understand.

I like this analogy. I feel like the games press would be saying "it's all about the driving experience, I don't really notice my suspension and I don't need an upgraded engine because I'm happy with the stock performance. And shit dude, Dealer A is throwing in a GPS module!"

 

[daman824]

Developers do sign NDA's regarding each console's SDK. They're not allowed to shit on one, and frankly, it wouldn't be smart to shit on one version of the game they're trying to sell. So they keep their mouths shut for the most part. Only talking in vague diplomatic ways.

This is one of the reasons it's always funny when people try and use a developer quote of them saying "both consoles are about the same" as proof that both consoles are actually equal. Developer really aren't allowed to tell you the consoles aren't equal, and that's why stories written on that topic usually include anonymous quotes and sources.

yep. You could have one version running at half the framerate. But the developers aren't going to admit i'ts the inferior version.

 

[methane47]

If you look at something like trucks, one manufacturer always has a truck with more horsepower than the others. It is certainly on the spec sheets and mentioned by auto journalists, but let's face it they are both trucks. They haul stuff and pull stuff and do what trucks do.

The XB1 and PS4 both play games marvelously. They are both "trucks" and the job of gaming journalists is not to argue about horsepower, it's about describing how well the trucks function at their jobs. So while an F-150 may have more horsepower, a Ram has better cargo loading. What's the point of arguing horsepower as long as they get the job done?

In the case of Nintendo, they decided to stop selling trucks and started selling something like a truck... Maybe a crossover.

So as long as I'm seeing that the XB1 is able to deliver a quality gaming experience (it does) than journalists should move on to more consumer driven features.

I'm just not seeing the outrage here... It's like you guys are saying the XB1 isn't worthy of being classified a gaming console.

Because in this case one truck as more horsepower AND better cargo loading... and is 100 bucks cheaper.

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

There is a lesson to be learned here: Never pick a fight with your audience.

 

[Nymphae]

yep. You could have one version running at half the framerate. But the developers aren't going to admit i'ts the inferior version.

Yeah, better to let people find out it performs like shit after they buy the product. It makes sense, I just don't like it.

 

[Majmun]

So at the end of the day, and assuming the x1 version wont have framerate issues like the 360 (PS4 and PS3 version have horrible fps)

Would you rather have

PS4 version with 1080p, weaker framerate and potentially worse textures
x1 version with 720p, rock solid framerate and better textures (and better online)

 

[Metroid-Squadron]

It establishes a pattern of false equivalencies from Sessler regarding the new consoles.

He didn't say that they were equivalent, just that they were closer with the added accesories, which is true. Again, reducing his argument to absolutes.

You are being obtuse in your discussion of a semantic difference in others' arguments.

Much of the controversy coming from Sessler's newfound lack of care for 1080p graphics stems from the context of how his previous comments were stated. The connotations surrounding his phrasing back then are completely different than they are today. Back then, he claimed that reaching 1080p and 60fps was just console manufacturers "doing their jobs," implying that it was expected of them. The controversy comes from the fact that now that one of the two consoles does not reach that "standard" that he had set for next gen a few months ago, the standard has changed. It's not so much that Sony isn't getting enough praise for being more powerful; it's that Sessler has shifted his expectations to avoid any sort of negative questioning of Microsoft for failing to reach his aforementioned standard. So now, rather than having to stick to his guns and ask Microsoft why they didn't do their "job," he can claim that the differences don't matter, because games.

Which is especially asinine when considering that the whole "resolutiongate" issue revolves around the same games. It's a non-argument that only muddys the water and sends threads such as these in endless circles. The "games" side does not even belong in the conversation, as the games themselves are 100% the same. The issue is not between "bland shooter game #45" and "innovative, groundbreaking new IP"--it's between "Game X" and "Game X." The argument isn't even necessarily that resolution is, in and of itself, the main issue. The argument is that these resolution differences are endemic to weaker hardware--something that can indeed impact "games."

To be perfectly objective, Sony didn't reach the standard either with Killzone being 30fps. But the phrase "doing their job" was in the context that resolution isn't as important as game design, the same thing he is saying now. And he did say he is disappointed to see sub 1080p games.

The reason he's talking about design is because we've barely seen any exclusives for each platform. A lot of people are using resolution as the single most important factor when it comes to deciding whether to buy a PS4 or Xbox One. He's saying that games are more important and that since we've barely seen any exclusives for each platform, it would be much more productive to wait to see what's available by the end of these console's first year before proclaiming one the absolute superior over the other. A perfectly reasonable position.

He is no moment dismissing the PS4's power advantage, he clearly acknowledges it, but he's also aware that for a lot people that's not the most important thing when buying a console.

Huh?

I've discussed the topic at hand. In depth. Without calling my fellow GAFers "simple minded." My posts have been quoted multiple times both by people who found them thoughtful and agreeable, and by people who disagree.

So, not discussing rebuttals then.

 

[turnbuckle]

You specifically ask for a link to the video where Sessler makes a comment that implicitly means the PS4 is a worse bang for your buck than the XB1

When provided for a link you change your goalposts.

You are being pretty ridiculous.

 

[Zen]

But he has downplayed consoles, or rather the PS4 specifically. A few months back he was saying that Sony is no better than Microsoft and to expect that Sony would come out with similar policies. And while Sony has had a few issues leading into launch, the other shoe hasn't dropped. He's been very apologetic in relation to Microsoft asking for time to allow more information to come forth. Again, the desire to wait is fine, but not all the minute details need to come out before a reasonable conclusion can be reached.

That's fine is Adam doesn't focus on the technical side of things but it doesn't excuse the back and forth statements he makes.

The Potatoman gave a summary.

The Sessler video that people are talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf2iVUMRD3A

To sum up the video:
Microsoft didn't have a policy problem with DRM just a messaging problem (continued through most of the video)
If you include playstation plus and playstation eye PS4 is actually more expensive then the Xbox one
The "angry internet mob" changed XBO policies instead spending time on something more useful
We don't have enough information about PS4 and Sony and is talking down from the ivory tower just like Microsoft is
Sessler isn't a biased fanboy, but anyone criticizing him a very very sad fanboy that only derives his identity from the company he argues for

What a fucking moron.

 

[Curufinwe]

He didn't say that they were equivalent, just that they were closer with the added accesories, which is true. Again, reducing his argument to absolutes.

Actually, the price gap between the PS4 and Xbone just to play games online is actually larger than the costs of the consoles because Xbox Live costs $60 and PS+ only costs $50.

Of course in Sessler's fantasy land Xbox Live cost zero dollars.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

He didn't say that they were equivalent, just that they were closer with the added accesories, which is true. Again, reducing his argument to absolutes.

What? They're closer with some accessories added to one (PS+) but not to the other (Gold sub). That's not being disingenuous?

 

[VibratingDonkey]

I see both criticism and unneeded hate in this thread. Moreso of the latter. It's insane.


That's an awful summary. Adam said much more than resolution doesn't matter (though he's still not really right.) and gaf sure as hell said a lot more than just say "Doesn't that sound hypocritical?".

Also insinuating that the "irrational hate" tweet was in response to valid points/feedback/arguments/criticism is unfair since, basically Twitter sucks for discussion.

It seems to me he was addressing the ones failing to address the Sess in a civil and respectful manner i.e. being assholey. The "festering mound of threats and libel" he mentions in a later tweet.

That said there's nothing preventing him from responding to valid points made in unshitty manners. But I guess maybe at this point he's just done with the whole thing.

The hostile attitude going on between viewreaders and pressonalities is dumb and unhealthy. Why can't we be friends?

 

[bigmf]

This thread: Sessler in the white shirt, Neogaf in blue, red and black shirts

He only has himself to blame, though.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

The Potatoman gave a summary.

The Sessler video that people are talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xf2iVUMRD3A

To sum up the video:

• Microsoft didn't have a policy problem with DRM just a messaging problem (continued through most of the video)
• If you include playstation plus and playstation eye PS4 is actually more expensive then the Xbox one
• The "angry internet mob" changed XBO policies instead spending time on something more useful
• We don't have enough information about PS4 and Sony and is talking down from the ivory tower just like Microsoft is
• Sessler isn't a biased fanboy, but anyone criticizing him a very very sad fanboy that only derives his identity from the company he argues for

Sessler, like too many other "name" guys in the business, frequently pull the "insult the audience" card whenever they are challenged and they feel those dirty commoners on the internet are trespassing on their turf. But Adam really loves the "angry mob/pitchforks" imagery, because he knows it appeals to the video game nerds.

"See, they're picking on me!" he screams, and all the video game nerds, (and if you're a real enthusiast for any significant amount of time, you've been called one--we all have,) who identify with him and his geeky persona he's presented over the years, run to his defense, because hey, we've all been picked on, or called names because of our hobby, and that sucks.

It's pretty brilliant actually. It's straight out of Pro Wrestling psychology, but it works on an audience.

 

[xxracerxx]

He didn't say that they were equivalent, just that they were closer with the added accesories, which is true. Again, reducing his argument to absolutes.

You are being intentionally obtuse.

 

[KimonoNoNo]

*starts following David Jenkins*

Jenkins has been in the UK games media for a very long time.

In fact Games Central started out on teletext, which didn't rely on the rather incestuous relationship between games advertisements and media outlets.
They were part of UK games culture for at least a decade probably more, before teletext got shut down and found a home on the Metro site.

In those days they had a lot of games mysteriously not turn up in the post.

 

[nib95]

This thread: Sessler in the white shirt, Neogaf in blue, red and black shirts

He only has himself to blame, though.

Holy shit! LOL. Source?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

You are being intentionally obtuse.

Indeed. At this point, it's easier to ignore what he says so as to avoid further derailing the thread. His responses thus far have consisted of ad-hominem attacks, shifting goalposts, quibbling over semantics, and willful ignorance of others' arguments. At this point we might as well have been arguing with a can of baked beans.

EDIT: Aaaaaand he's banned.

 

[Gamespawn]

If you look at something like trucks, one manufacturer always has a truck with more horsepower than the others. It is certainly on the spec sheets and mentioned by auto journalists, but let's face it they are both trucks. They haul stuff and pull stuff and do what trucks do.

The XB1 and PS4 both play games marvelously. They are both "trucks" and the job of gaming journalists is not to argue about horsepower, it's about describing how well the trucks function at their jobs. So while an F-150 may have more horsepower, a Ram has better cargo loading. What's the point of arguing horsepower as long as they get the job done?

In the case of Nintendo, they decided to stop selling trucks and started selling something like a truck... Maybe a crossover.

So as long as I'm seeing that the XB1 is able to deliver a quality gaming experience (it does) than journalists should move on to more consumer driven features.

I'm just not seeing the outrage here... It's like you guys are saying the XB1 isn't worthy of being classified a gaming console.

But, the journalist would be sure to mention every time that the F-150 had more horsepower because that's what potential buyers would care about in your scenario.That's why people read your article because they want to know about the differences, not because they want to know they are both trucks.

 

[bigmf]

Holy shit! LOL. Source?

I just found it on the internet, I don't know the original source.

 

[avaya]

Jenkins has been in the UK games media for a very long time.

In fact Games Central started out on teletext, which didn't rely on the rather incestuous relationship between games advertisements and media outlets.
They were part of UK games culture for at least a decade probably more, before teletext got shut down and found a home on the Metro site.

In those days they had a lot of games mysteriously not turn up in the post.

Digitiser? Stuart Campbell?

 

[Flo_Evans]

There is a lesson to be learned here: Never pick a fight with your audience.

It kind of makes me wonder, who exactly does Adam think he is talking to? I don't think I can even find another person outside of GAF who knows who he is. The type of casual gamer that doesn't know what 1080p means isn't listening to your podcasts. Hell I didn't know he quit G4 and is at some website I have never heard of now.

Its not like we are talking about 4k support or some inane HDMI spec. I bought a 1080p TV when the x360 came out. A few years ago when I went to get a bedroom TV they didn't even have any name brand sets over 40" that just did 720p.

Its not even like resolution is the important comparison. It could be framerate or effects. It could be physics or characters on screen. I'm sure in other games developers will make different choices on what to sacrifice.

 

[NeededSleep]

Sessler, like too many other "name" guys in the business, frequently pull the "insult the audience" card whenever they are challenged and they feel those dirty commoners on the internet are trespassing on their turf. But Adam really loves the "angry mob/pitchforks" imagery, because he knows it appeals to the video game nerds.

"See, they're picking on me!" he screams, and all the video game nerds, (and if you're a real enthusiast for any significant amount of time, you've been called one--we all have,) who identify with him and his geeky persona he's presented over the years, run to his defense, because hey, we've all been picked on, or called names because of our hobby, and that sucks.

It's pretty brilliant actually. It's straight out of Pro Wrestling psychology, but it works on an audience.

Actually started to notice this last night after I saw some of his tweets.. Makes me sad he is going down this road of making his readers who object to the most recent video the bad guys.

Was hoping he wouldnt be the one to do it. I like Adams enthusiasm

 

[KimonoNoNo]

Digitiser? Stuart Campbell?

Yeah when the Digitiser guys (or was it just Mr.Biffo?) called it a day, Games Central took over.

 

[cilonen]

Digitiser? Stuart Campbell?

Is Stuart Mr. Biffo? Digitiser was my go-to spot for video game news and info.

Similar to what I was pining for earlier on TBH: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=88746599&postcount=2077

I miss that place, I'll have to take a look at Metro now.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Actually started to notice this last night after I saw some of his tweets.. Makes me sad he is going down this road of making his readers who object to the most recent video the bad guys.

Was hoping he wouldnt be the one to do it. I like Adams enthusiasm

I don't stand by the opinion that developers and media members shouldn't speak up for themselves, but this is so fucking childish. Man needs to stop taking lessons from Cliff, which is funny since the SGC panel that was linked to earlier in the thread had him and Sterling criticizing the flame baiting tweets.

 

[disastermouse]

Metro article is excellent, I'd encourage everyone to read it.

.

 

[Phades]

it doesn't. it's the gaming press who are saying, "they don't matter". they do. a game is the sum of its parts. both versions are the exact same experience so that's out of the gate in terms of comparison. now, there are graphical differences (bf4 having lower resolution and lacking global illumination system, plus running at a lower average framerate). that's where comparisons come in because that's where comparisons can be made. and why are comparisons being made? because these are both valued at $60 no matter what console.

it's the constant and massive downplaying of these differences that is such a copout. remember when all these "journalists" pointed out every damn difference the ps3 version of a multiplat had in their reviews? "the ps3 version looks washed out. the ps3 version had some hiccups. the ps3 version had less vibrant colours. you are better off playing the xbox 360 version if you want the best version out there outside the pc.


this takes the icing on the cake:
http://www.g4tv.com/videos/43049/mx-vs-atv-reflex-playstation-3-review/
"Get the lowdown on the PlayStation 3 version of MX vs. ATV Reflex in this review. Adam Sessler and Morgan Webb discuss the drawbacks of the PS3 version of MX vs. ATV Reflex and reveal the game's lower score."

360 version = 3/5 stars
ps3 version = 2/5 stars for being graphically inferior

or this:
http://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/bayonetta-review/1900-249/?review_id=249
Much of the potential of Bayonetta--potential that's realized on the Xbox 360--is lost to technical issues on the PS3.
(yes, that's the subtext of the review).

or what about this?
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/247305/red-dead-redemptions-sub-hd-ps3-display-analysis/
"Its resolution is 640 by 1152, compared to the Xbox 360's 720 by 1280 pixels. At first glance you might say that this is only a difference of "80 pixels," but in reality, when the missing area is calculated, the PS3 suffers an 184,320 pixel deficit - or 20 per cent lower than the Xbox 360 version. This rendering resolution is then upscaled by the PS3 to be displayed on your screen."

or how about this, arstechnica?
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2010/05/read-dead-redemption-360-vs-ps3-our-thoughts/
"This is non-scientific, but after playing an hour of both games, and switching back and forth between the two systems on our display, it's clear that the 360 version has quite the graphical advantage. It's sharper, with much less aliasing. The faces of the characters were clearer in the opening section. Gameplay sections likewise looked better, with smoother graphics across the board. The PlayStation 3 version looked impressive, but there was a noticeable jump in quality while playing on the 360.

Keep in mind that the game doesn't look bad on the PS3—not by any stretch—but based on our time with the game and direct comparisons, the 360 version looks better. If you purchase the PS3 version of the game you're not going to be let down, but if you have the choice, pick up a copy for the 360.

Here's another reason to buy the game for the Xbox 360: if you dislike playing with strangers, there are 16 Ars Technica members in the game's thread playing online with the 360 version, compared to three on the PS3. If you're going to be playing, sign up!"


hypocrites.

 

[LifEndz]

Actually, the price gap between the PS4 and Xbone just to play games online is actually larger than the costs of the consoles because Xbox Live costs $60 and PS+ only costs $50.

Of course in Sessler's fantasy land Xbox Live cost zero dollars.

Well, he's probably been comp'd enough live cards for that not be a worry for some time, and he probably figures most people already have live anyway so the cost of live is a non-factor to him.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

.

 

[Sinthor]

But, the journalist would be sure to mention every time that the F-150 had more horsepower because that's what potential buyers would care about in your scenario.That's why people read your article because they want to know about the differences, not because they want to know they are both trucks.

And the journalist/reviewer would CERTAINLY mention that one truck had more horsepower AND was cheaper. They do it in car reviews I read all the time. This guy isn't worth arguing with though. He's apparently too emotionally invested in one product to where he is not capable of being fully objective. IMHO.

 

[Bad_Boy]

Damn, that metro interview gave me a bad taste in my mouth about the industry. I'm almost done with video games journalism. Can't trust anyone. No one is really doing any real reporting. NDA's and embargo's on what's supposed to be fun, free, and open. Essentially playing with peoples money.

Excuse me while I sit back and play my backlog until next gen arrives. Call me when Cboat/famous and the like, speak.

 

[Sinthor]

Good examples. I'm sure that game reviews this gen will point out the same issues if they exist. I'm going to go ahead and believe than until/unless I'm proven wrong. Or, of course, those differences don't exist.

What does worry me a bit is the bandied about rumor that along with embargoes of XB1 games until noon on launch day, that MS is also somehow disallowing comparisons with the PS4 version of the games? I don't know how MS could actually DO that but if they can, that's not right.