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[Jumplion]

The problem with her is that she concentrates exclusively on these sorts of low hanging fruits when addressing criticism of her analysis. It's lousy that the "12 year old on CoD" subset have been giving her so much shit, but why are they worth such focus? They do it largely because of the anonymity provided by Youtube comments and Twitter. What are people looking for the company's which own these services to actually do to curb these comments? Are they to blame for creating the environment in your eyes?

Because the way we discuss it here saying "That's awful" is basically worthless.

It's not just "12 year olds on CoD". Many of these are grown-ass men hell bent of perpetuating this bullshit. Just look over into the comments and you already have some prominent figureheads of the bullshit brigade stirring the pot. Look onto Twitter a few days ago on International Women's Day, those people were not just little shits wanting to shout the loudest.

Why are they worth such a focus? Why are people who are directly affecting not just games, but actively trying to destroy someone's life and causing actual distress and causing people to leave the industry worth it to address? Why are the people that started this shit months ago, even years ago, and continue to do this shit people we should focus on?

If you watched the video you'd understand.

If you even half half of a heart, which I know you do, you'd understand.

 

[Myggen]

Please tell me that was fan made.

The Sonic franchise has a deep, dark history.

 

[geordiemp]

I see what you mean but no one is actually restricting or blindly self-censoring art here. It's about being more informed so you can be more aware of what your media does and its responsibility in society. What one chooses to do with that information gleaned from more awareness is at the discretion of the creatives involved, and to be honest, you would probably have no idea they changed something in development unless they told you.

Your worry is mostly unfounded and kind of self-centered.

Fair point, and we would never know anyway I agree. And discussing in this thread has me thinking and forming opinions. I agree with most of Anitas stance she just needs to focus more on the 'really bad' stuff in games imo...

I dont think I am selfish as the games I play probably would not be affected anyway, guess I am just a free market kind of person.....I will buy 15 or 18 rated games for shooting / killing gameplay but I hate sexualisation in games. Even playing Dragon age Inquisition I finished the game but romancing is just off. Wish they just left that stuff out.

Actually thinking about it my preferences probably come from gaming with an 11 year old son (2 x Ps4, we play together) - he is 11, why cant he be the knight saving the princess. Childhood does not last long....

 

[curiouscharles]

Yeah I scrolled down right after starting it.


I shouldn't have scrolled down.

wow, yup - i definitely shouldn't have either.

makes me ashamed to be a man... :/

 

[OfficerZap]

Seems similar to being a politician to me.

Where they are in the public eye and have a firm stance on an issue, the people who disagree with that stance will contain a smaller group that go to extremes to either pick apart their life, or just descend into mindless hate.

I'd wager that Anita knew she was making a political statement (like most issues based tubers) and was expecting the usual levels of debate that it would cause, but wasn't expecting it to go from Small Town to National politics instead, to continue the kind of sloppy analogy.

I wonder if a support person/coach similar to that a politician uses would be a good step to resolving some of the things she identifies above, at least in a make-managable-for-sanity manner.

 

[Myggen]

Also yeah, looking at the comments under that video just depresses me. Fuck people, seriously.

 

[oni-link]

Seems similar to being a politician to me.

Where they are in the public eye and have a firm stance on an issue, the people who disagree with that stance will contain a smaller group that go to extremes to either pick apart their life, or just descend into mindless hate.

I'd wager that Anita knew she was making a political statement (like most issues based tubers) and was expecting the usual levels of debate that it would cause, but wasn't expecting it to go from Small Town to National politics instead, to continue the kind of sloppy analogy.

I wonder if a support person/coach similar to that a politician uses would be a good step to resolving some of the things she identifies above, at least in a make-managable-for-sanity manner.

Wanting a debate about gender representation is a political move?

 

[Marcel]

Fair point, and we would never know anyway I agree. And discussing in this thread has me thinking and forming opinions. I agree with most of Anitas stance she just needs to focus more on the 'really bad' stuff in games imo...

I think acting like Anita is obligated to hit more 'worthy' (worthy according to you) targets is problematic. It's her place to decide what gets in and what doesn't. Just because she doesn't bring up the stuff that you personally find problematic doesn't make her work less impactful.

And let's also not act like feminism is one mass Jello mold where all ideas are uniform. You should see the people who disagreed with my views of Bayonetta, some of them notable contributors to this discussion.

 

[Riposte]

These people are obnoxious, terminally socially clueless, with poor critical problem solving skills, poor reading comprehension, poor deductive reasoning, bad inductive reasoning, morons who believe they are always right no matter how stupid, broken, or disproven their arguments are, who play games that are obnoxious, socially clueless, that require no critical problem solving, no reading comprehension, no deductive reasoning, stupid inductive reasoning, and always win no matter how bad or stupid they play, and are constantly told how great and awesome they are extrinsically by being given constant trophies and achievements, for doing and accomplishing nothing.

Its not a coincidence.

They say correlation does not imply causation, but to even call what you wrote a correlation would be intellectually dishonest. This is more of an angry rant than it is a supported idea. You are very confident in something that would be very hard to prove (and ideally it would see hard proof at the psychological level, given what is being implied).

Also I think it's funny when people try to make 4chan and "dudebros" or frat boys synonymous. I mean when I see angry rants like these they (like what I saw of that MovieBob guy) often want to imply Call of Duty has been slowly been training dudes into soldiers of hate (insofar your description is even applicable to whatever games), when the usual suspects likely spent the last decade shitting on it and "mainstream games" in favor of more "hardcore" Japanese and PC titles (meanwhile I've been bumping elbows with a nice sample of the CoD and GTA core audience on a daily basis and do not care what wars are raged in our bubble). So yeah, you can see what you want, I guess.

On that note, posts hinting at soft boycotts should outright name the titles in question. For clarity's sake, at the very least.

 

[NickFire]

I'd argue that it really isn't but there's not really much of a way to prove one way or the other how big or small that group really is. Either way no, discussing them really does nothing to shrink their numbers.If that's the strategy we will be talking about this the same way years down the road. "Youtube comments" are so notorious it even gets mentioned in popular music and entertainment. Awareness isn't the issue, at least on this particular topic.

I would add that quite a few of these people appear mentally ill, deranged, disturbed, whatever. For an adult to sit behind a screen just waiting for a chance to threaten rape/death because someone is criticizing video games, something is not right upstairs. This is not rational behavior for adults.

 

[toythatkills]

Without gamergate, this video doesn't exist. Without gamergate, Tropes vs. Women has a tiny percentage of the press coverage that it ultimately got.

I wonder if they even realise how much they've done to not only get Anita's message to spread, but also to generate the huge amount of support for it.

 

[nynt9]

Wanting a debate about gender representation is a political move?

Considering it's an issue republicans and democrats disagree upon, I'd say that it pretty obviously is.

 

[Evil Monkey DTT]

Everything about gamergate makes me sick, yes she certainly has gotten a career boost but man I get the fear. I couldn't imagine being constantly attacked and insulted with rape and death on a constant basis.

 

[Myggen]

Without gamergate, this video doesn't exist. Without gamergate, Tropes vs. Women has a tiny percentage of the press coverage that it ultimately got.

I wonder if they even realise how much they've done to not only get Anita's message to spread, but also to generate the huge amount of support for it.

They don't. They still whine about the Kickstarter money she got, when the reason she got that much money was because of the harassment she received by people like that. It has been obvious from the start, but you'll never get GG people to admit it.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Holy shit at those comments :O

Can't people disagree with her and not be total assholes about it? Sheesh

 

[eRonin]

Without gamergate, this video doesn't exist. Without gamergate, Tropes vs. Women has a tiny percentage of the press coverage that it ultimately got.

I wonder if they even realise how much they've done to not only get Anita's message to spread, but also to generate the huge amount of support for it.

Without GamerGate, no chance whatsoever that Anita would have gone on freakin' Colbert Report.

 

[Mael]

Holy crap the comments, you weren't kidding.
Nope I'm not going to waste my time on GG related stuffs today.

 

[Marcel]

Holy crap the comments, you weren't kidding.
Nope I'm not going to waste my time on GG related stuffs today.

Thanks for your very useful reply about how you're not going to contribute to the discussion or do anything really.

 

[OfficerZap]

Wanting a debate about gender representation is a political move?

Absolutely. But you may be thinking of political in terms of the smaller grouping Dem vs Repub, not political as a larger concept.

There's overlap, as you'd expect, but the first group doesn't include all the second group.

 

[Dice//]

Without gamergate, this video doesn't exist. Without gamergate, Tropes vs. Women has a tiny percentage of the press coverage that it ultimately got.

I wonder if they even realise how much they've done to not only get Anita's message to spread, but also to generate the huge amount of support for it.

Amazing, ain't it?

full ver

 

[KazenY2J]

I disagree with her videos and her approach on things, but I wouldn't send death threats to her over them. Just seems unnecessary to even do that.

 

[geordiemp]

I think acting like Anita is obligated to hit more 'worthy' (worthy according to you) targets is problematic. It's her place to decide what gets in and what doesn't. Just because she doesn't bring up the stuff that you personally find problematic doesn't make her work less impactful.

And let's also not act like feminism is one mass Jello mold where all ideas are uniform. You should see the people who disagreed with my views of Bayonetta, some of them notable contributors to this discussion.

We probably agree on more than you think, Bayo is not really my thing (Bay 1 I tried on 360, did not last long at all and got put away pretty quickly). Yet I loved Gaiden and desperate for something similar....although it did have its issues with some of the female cast.. Gaiden gameplay was great, story was meh...

 

[oni-link]

Absolutely. But you may be thinking of political in terms of the smaller grouping Dem vs Repub, not political as a larger concept.

There's overlap, as you'd expect, but the first group doesn't include all the second group.

I'm English, and I don't think any of our political parties would oppose a debate on gender representation on political grounds

 

[Scofield94941]

The sad part about this is that they are all empty threats made by misogynists who just want her to live in fear and feel like shit because she wants women to be more then cannon fodder and sex objects in games. Holy fuck I cannot believe im apart of the same community that does this shit.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Without gamergate, this video doesn't exist. Without gamergate, Tropes vs. Women has a tiny percentage of the press coverage that it ultimately got.

I wonder if they even realise how much they've done to not only get Anita's message to spread, but also to generate the huge amount of support for it.

Without GG, she wouldn't have been featured in the NY Times.

That was the time I took her much more seriously.

 

[BanGy.nz]

Anita has done more good for the industry in a 3 years then every major publisher has done in decades.

The discussion about women in the industry is long overdue and desperately needs to be addressed. Unfortunately the response Anita and many other women have received has been so toxic, so awful that other progressive causes have fallen to wayside. Everyone's either trying to put out the fires started by #GamerGate or just watching in horror as the perpetual abuse machine rolls on.

 

[TheSlySoul]

Without GG, she wouldn't have been featured in the NY Times.

That was the time I took her much more seriously.

It's called the Streisand effect and the theory holds water.

 

[Aztechnology]

Without gamergate, this video doesn't exist. Without gamergate, Tropes vs. Women has a tiny percentage of the press coverage that it ultimately got.

I wonder if they even realise how much they've done to not only get Anita's message to spread, but also to generate the huge amount of support for it.

Exactly, the Irony would be sweet, providing it wasn't causing Anita so much mental anguish.

 

[isaiahpmarshall]

While I fully support diversity in video games, I feel as though the artistic vision of the developer shouldn't be hindered by fear of labels.
i.e. Far Cry 4 cover art.

Furthermore, if I hear or see the term "privilege" again I just might lose it.

EDIT: Also, there's crap flung at any prominent figure, especially in the age of the internet. I don't sympathize.

 

[Brian Griffin]

You say that but how many devs have been supportive of her? The Naughty Dog guys said her work influenced them on TLOU, how many devs have come out and said she's wrong/annoying etc?

The people who hate her are all keyboard warriors or just, I don't even know why people hate her, they think she wants to change their games? Or take them away from them?

That's what's so infuriating about the whole thing, she has never suggested anything remotely like this but all the fuckheads won't hear it. She doesn't want anyone to completely stop making the kinds of games she criticizes (save for a Custer's Revenge reboot or something) she just wants to see more varied roles for women in games.

I'd argue that women being sexualized, fridged, stereotyped, etc. are all valid tools to have in the great toolbox of game development and story telling in general. The problem is that so many games only use a few tools and leave 90% of them untouched. Female warriors in ridiculous bikini armor is fine on it's own but when it's ALL there is it becomes offensive and lazy. Having a female character in the story only to have her captured or brutally murdered is fine unless it's repeated ad nauseam, as is the case for many games and movies. Variety is the key not outright removal of tropes.

It's really sad that all the hate seems to have slowed or stopped her Tropes vs. Women series. As a game dev I found that series very interesting.

 

[Dice//]

While I fully support diversity in video games, I feel as though the artistic vision of the developer shouldn't be hindered by fear of labels.
i.e. Far Cry 4 cover art.

Furthermore, if I hear or see the term "privilege" again I just might lose it.

Hey Isaiah Jr!
What sort of artistic vision might be stifled here?

 

[ANDS]

makes me ashamed to be a man... :/

Jesus Christ. Seriously. . .

Wanting a debate about gender representation is a political move?

You know what they mean.

 

[Mael]

Thanks for your very useful reply about how you're not going to contribute to the discussion or do anything really.

Sorry but what discussion is there to be had at this point?
I mean I like looking at lemmings getting banned all day but there's no funds I can spare to her cause.
There's literally nothing I will provide to this thread that I hadn't already provided in previous threads.
I mean at this point whether you agree with her or not, there's no denying that her points have largely been made for her by the cavalcade of assholes that spew shit her way.

 

[paolo11]

Everything about gamergate makes me sick, yes she certainly has gotten a career boost but man I get the fear. I couldn't imagine being constantly attacked and insulted with rape and death on a constant basis.

It is sad and scary, brother. I mean, every single day she gets harrassed for more than a year because of her principles and opinions. I pray it ends soon. No one deserves those types of harrassments.

Why must other gamers persecute people due to unpopular opinion that does not cause harm to the industry? There should not be harrassments, death threats, or insults at all.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

Wonder what the over under is that a lot of those GAF comments on Youtube are from Gaffers who dont want to commit account suicide here.

Are you insinuating that anybody who criticizes Sarkeesian deserves to be banned? I don't think that's fair, and it perpetuates the stereotype that NeoGAF is an echo chamber.

That being said, death threats and verbal abuse are never acceptable.

 

[partyphone]

I'd argue that it really isn't but there's not really much of a way to prove one way or the other how big or small that group really is. Either way no, discussing them really does nothing to shrink their numbers.If that's the strategy we will be talking about this the same way years down the road. "Youtube comments" are so notorious it even gets mentioned in popular music and entertainment. Awareness isn't the issue, at least on this particular topic.

all of the high profile gaters range from 20somethibg to middle aged. total biscuit and the sarkeesian effect clowns are definitely middle aged. there's no reason to believe the majority of the mob are any different.

but that isn't the important part. sexism is the default. it's just assumed that games need to be made and marketed to boys. even most casual games have a problem with sexism(from kate upton in the ads to a lack of female playable characters). the problem isn't YouTube comments in particular. it's the culture that creates them. because that culture effects everything. it needs to be called out or it will never change.

blizzard didn't make zarya because they had a spontaneous change of heart. the history of their art is deeply sexist and it wasn't going to change without outside influence.

 

[Orochinagis]

Those youtube comments, still I am kinda tired of Anita still exposing herself to be the center of attention.

 

[Auctopus]

I disagree with her videos and her approach on things, but I wouldn't send death threats to her over them. Just seems unnecessary to even do that.

Same, I can't imagine being so unhealthily invested in something that you need to threaten someone's life because they are criticising it. Amazing that they can't see their efforts are now doing the complete opposite of what they want and then some.

 

[Fhtagn]

While I fully support diversity in video games, I feel as though the artistic vision of the developer shouldn't be hindered by fear of labels.
i.e. Far Cry 4 cover art.

Furthermore, if I hear or see the term "privilege" again I just might lose it.

You are going to have to get used to that; it's not going away, it's an extremely useful analysis tool and it is plain as day that society is laden with many intersecting tiers of privilege.

The MRA people are the ones who talk about being "red pilled" or "blue pilled" but seriously, once you recognize how who you are affects how other people interact with you (for better or worse) it's impossible not to see privilege leveraged everywhere. It's just... undeniable.

Now, sure, even I'm sick to death of the phrase "check your privilege" but just because people can't stop saying it doesn't invalidate the underlying concepts.

 

[aspiegamer]

I'd like to specifically respond to a comment by user by one "Hans Gruber" (saniipour).

Hey NeoGaf get some balls and stop licking Anitas boots.
I love how everyone who openly isnt a Anita supporter or just has a different opinion gets instant banned on NeoGaf.
NeoGaf became shithole who needs its own justice to get rid of these White Knights.

Hi there. Person who really doesn't support Anita here. This turned into a "I sympathize with her because of the shit she's gone through" and not "I completely sympathize with her analysis of things" for me and many others, ages ago. In fact, if you ever saw GAF threads on this stuff you'd see that that was the predominant tone. I don't follow her work or watch her new videos and what I had watched in the past was often epic sensationalism and political. Overall I agree the concept of more diversity in gaming but not her presentation style.

So I ask the following; Why do you hate a forum that allows an anti-bullying message and a discussion about online bullying? Also, do you not understand the irony of your comment? On multiple levels, but even one is fine.

Holy shit you were not joking... people are just so damn angry at NeoGAF its like the forum transformed into Shadow the Hedgehog and took their candy...

If they're mad at us, it means we're doing something right. However, since what "we've been doing" is doing nothing at all I don't know what there is to be upset about. No one gets banned for disagreeing. They get banned for being insufferable jerks. This is a culture war that has bred people more stubborn than any before it. In the past I equated these persons to be on par with moon conspirators and 9/11 Truthers but as this drags on I've realized that that's being far too generous and this is more Birther territory.

Spoiler

Thank you for your hard work, mods.

 

[ANDS]

Are you insinuating that anybody who criticizes Sarkeesian deserves to be banned? I don't think that's fair, and it perpetuates the stereotype that NeoGAF is an echo chamber.

That being said, death threats and verbal abuse are never acceptable.

What's funny, I remember making a comment around a gender issue based thread and got a few private messages suggesting I "toe the line. . ." with regard to the narrative. It may not be what happens, but there are more than zero people who hold this view (in regards to an opposing view getting you banned).

 

[Mael]

While I fully support diversity in video games, I feel as though the artistic vision of the developer shouldn't be hindered by fear of labels.
i.e. Far Cry 4 cover art.

Furthermore, if I hear or see the term "privilege" again I just might lose it.

EDIT: Also, there's crap flung at any prominent figure, especially in the age of the internet. I don't sympathize.

Artistic vision, every single time I read that here I can't help but think it's a sick joke.
I mean we're talking about the equivalent of Hasbro trying to make money off toys.
Considering the constraint devs go through, artistic vision is not high on the scale.

 

[geordiemp]

That's what's so infuriating about the whole thing, she has never suggested anything remotely like this but all the fuckheads won't hear it. She doesn't want anyone to completely stop making the kinds of games she criticizes (save for a Custer's Revenge reboot or something) she just wants to see more varied roles for women in games.

I'd argue that women being sexualized, fridged, stereotyped, etc. are all valid tools to have in the great toolbox of game development and story telling in general. The problem is that so many games only use a few tools and leave 90% of them untouched. Female warriors in ridiculous bikini armor is fine on it's own but when it's ALL there is it becomes offensive and lazy. Having a female character in the story only to have her captured or brutally murdered is fine unless it's repeated ad nauseam, as is the case for many games and movies. Variety is the key not outright removal of tropes.

It's really sad that all the hate seems to have slowed or stopped her Tropes vs. Women series. As a game dev I found that series very interesting.

Great post and well balanced articulated points. I need to watch more of Anita's videos.

 

[Nanashrew]

While I fully support diversity in video games, I feel as though the artistic vision of the developer shouldn't be hindered by fear of labels.
i.e. Far Cry 4 cover art.

Furthermore, if I hear or see the term "privilege" again I just might lose it.

Racism, gender inequality, homophobia, transphobia, many social issues and tropes actually stifle creativity more than the criticisms of them. Criticism of these things in the media we consumes can help you to avoid the trappings we all can easily fall into from over relying on tropes and clichés so that you can find new creative ideas for better and more emotional story that people so crave.

 

[jstripes]

These people are obnoxious, terminally socially clueless, with poor critical problem solving skills, poor reading comprehension, poor deductive reasoning, bad inductive reasoning, morons who believe they are always right no matter how stupid, broken, or disproven their arguments are, who play games that are obnoxious, socially clueless, that require no critical problem solving, no reading comprehension, no deductive reasoning, stupid inductive reasoning, and always win no matter how bad or stupid they play, and are constantly told how great and awesome they are extrinsically by being given constant trophies and achievements, for doing and accomplishing nothing.

Gamer "culture" has been carefully cultivated by marketing firms in the last decade and a half to transcend simply being a hobby, into being an identity and lifestyle.

Why?

Because pumping these gamers up, putting them on a pedestal and making them feel valued and important, gets them to focus their lives on gaming, which means they spend a good portion of their disposable income on gaming.

That said, the big budget games have been designed to appeal specifically to this crowd, and that's where the issue Anita is addressing lays.

Further more, the dreaded "casuals" are becoming more profitable than the hardcore gamers, and the market is slowly learning this.

 

[Toxi]

I'd like to specifically respond to a comment by user by one "Hans Gruber" (saniipour).

You're wasting your time. Someone who's still whining about NeoGAF after being banned is just looking for some sort of attention or emotional vindication, and is going to take your response as somehow "winning".

If I ever get perma-banned from GAF, I'm definitely going to use my time better than these bitter clowns. Life's too short to spend angry over not being part of an online club.

 

[F0rneus]

The best part about being a Gaffer is mingling with people who don't consider being a decent person, being a "SJW". It's like being a normal human being is considered "anti-gamer".

 

[isaiahpmarshall]

Hey Isaiah Jr!
What sort of artistic vision might be stifled here?

While its hard to state exactly what "vision" would be filtered, I'm thinking more along the lines of a game that tackles controversial topics, and people overreacting when the game has every right to exist as is. Censorship is bad for any piece of art.

 

[Salvatron]

No women of color available for this conference?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I like her videos, talks etc.. but this is honestly one of the best talks I've heard her give.


I feel bad for her, but also proud that she's managing to push through.