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[HK-47]

Those Youtube comments I read sounds like some shit that would come from a conservative or any other right leaning website.

Many of those people do come from such websites.

 

[DoktorEvil]

Your slippery slope argument is pretty much bullshit, just like all slippery slope arguments about this subject.

Please stop with this.

While I agree her arguments have merit, so do the arguments that argue in the contrary in earnest.

Or do you not want a forum where:

This is a neutral ground where facts and evidence, presented within the confines of civil, inclusive discourse, prevail through careful moderation.

Most arguments presented within civility are not bullshit and it's disingenuous to call something bullshit without arguing why it is or it isn't.

In any event, I find it ridiculous that academia has ignored ever discussing or critiquing video games at all but give the a-ok for film and music, so if Anita Sarkessian is the closest I will get to sociological video game critique, I'll take it.

 

[0.1.1.2.3.5.8.13.21.34.55]

I don't think dismissive posts like this should be okay here either.

Agreed, what point do they serve? When I click into a Sarkeesian thread, the majority of the time they've simply devolved into a ban generator with the victors patting themselves on the internet back. Despite the original intention of the thread(s), they all read the same.

 

[oni-link]

I think the saddest thing about this is that these haters don't seem to realize that portraying realistic women in games would only help further legitimatize games as an art form.

I really think Anita's message isn't coming from an "in your face" approach. Rather, I genuinely think that she, and people like her love games, but want to love them even more.

Games are art forms in many respects. But there's room for growth and further legitimization.

This is the amazing part, she says at the start of all her videos you can enjoy something and still be critical of it, she doesn't have a "games must change" manifesto, and she doesn't want to "take our games away"

She just wants to have a discussion, and to get people thinking about the implications of tropes a lot of us may take for granted

Her videos are also made so that anyone can understand them, she's not producing complex academic work, her videos are designed so that even a 13 year old boy would be able to grasp the general message

And for that, she is subjected to this life altering torrent of non stop abuse and hate and fear, it's just so depressing

 

[injurai]

This is the amazing part, she says at the start of all her videos you can enjoy something and still be critical of it, she doesn't have a "games must change" manifesto, and she doesn't want to "take our games away"

She just wants to have a discussion, and to get people thinking about the implications of tropes a lot of us may take for granted

Her videos are also made so that anyone can understand them, she's not producing complex academic work, her videos are designed so that even a 13 year old boy would be able to grasp the general message

And for that, she is subjected to this life altering torrent of non stop abuse and hate and fear, it's just so depressing

Obviously not... lol

 

[aeolist]

All arguments presented within civility are not bullshit

did you maybe just word this part poorly or do you actually mean it?

 

[FStop7]

What. What? WHAT? Dude started a company that made a pretty rockin' arpg... And was thanked with rape threats to his daughter?

edit: http://nation.foxnews.com/2015/03/0...ughter-curt-schilling-shares-their-identities

Ah! So real life consequences to being a moron! This should happen more often.

He can be the guy who made a rockin' arpg or he can be the guy who pissed away tens of millions of Rhode Island taxpayer dollars and fucked over his employees by failing to pay off their mortgages (as promised when they were hired) and canceling their health insurance... but in neither case is threatening his daughter with rape in any way sane or acceptable... it's like basic human decency is growing more scarce than common sense.

 

[besada]

Agreed, what point do they serve? When I click into a Sarkeesian thread, the majority of the time they've simply devolved into a ban generator with the victors patting themselves on the internet back. Despite the original intention of the thread(s), they all read the same.

Let's stop the metacommentary and moderation discussion. If you'd like to discuss moderation, feel free to PM a moderator, or send email to support@neogaf.com, rather than discuss it in the thread, which is a violation of the ToS.

In short, get back on topic, everyone.

 

[Dice//]

Good for her, great speech.

I love the ongoing irony that the more who hate the more it gives credence to her cause.

 

[DoktorEvil]

did you maybe just word this part poorly or do you actually mean it?

I'll re-clarify with "most" instead of "all".

 

[Kamina]

http://mashable.com/2014/12/01/rape-threats-contact-mothers/

Yes, thats what I meant...
I don't know what I'd do or say if i found out my son was posting such things online.

Sadly I'd place my bet on a sizable portion of them being in the 18-25 year old demographic.

Possible, but sad as well.

 

[Palculator]

In any event, I find it ridiculous that academia has ignored ever discussing or critiquing video games at all but give the a-ok for film and music, so if Anita Sarkessian is the closest I will get to sociological video game critique, I'll take it.

Um... I take it you haven't seen some of Lime's paper/book dumps?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I think the fascinating thing about Anita Sarkeesian's videos is that, like, they're not at all piercing insights! They're very surface-level observations of the problem with representing women video games have, so she's not attacking games on a particularly fundamental basis here. She could actually go way deeper, but a lot of it is just "These games have damsels and use women as props!" Which, yes, they do, why is that making people so mad? You know they do! It's really obvious!

She's not even asking you to think really hard or question indispensable things about your world view or to a hobby you've dedicated your life to. She's just saying, this thing kind of sucks, can we fix this?

And the reaction is "Fuck you, I'll kill you."

 

[Glass Shark]

I would be really happy if I never heard the phrase "cherry picked" ever again.

 

[geordiemp]

Please stop with this.

While I agree her arguments have merit, so do the arguments that argue in the contrary in earnest.

Or do you not want a forum where:



Most arguments presented within civility are not bullshit and it's disingenuous to call something bullshit without arguing why it is or it isn't.

In any event, I find it ridiculous that academia has ignored ever discussing or critiquing video games at all but give the a-ok for film and music, so if Anita Sarkessian is the closest I will get to sociological video game critique, I'll take it.

Thanks for that, entering this thread as a poster sort of new to the subject you feel as if you have to agree on every point or posters calling for your head.

My thoughts are that games like Far Cry and TLOU are not the big offenders and it worries me that they feel the need to change to be more PC.

Most of GAF know the source of high sexism in games, which I don't play and I get it However, the end game worries me for normal western AAA games....

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

Agree, it's over the top in everything else. Would be nice to keep it out of gaming.

Says who? The children who think any women characters who aren't dressed like Brazilian bikini models are somehow a threat to them personally?

Arguing against 'PC' is basically just saying 'why can't we be sexist/reacist/etc? We really like those things'.

Art always faces criticism, it's wrong to try to muzzle the critics because you don't like what they are saying. No critic has a gun to a developers head and can force them to do what the dev doesn't want to do.

 

[Marcel]

Please stop with this.

While I agree her arguments have merit, so do the arguments that argue in the contrary in earnest.

I disagree with some sort of slippery slope scenario where game content will now be fed through this prism of a purposefully vague political correctness concept. People can and should make the art that they want but know that will be judged and occasionally harangued by various disciplines and culture critics, like any other media. If someone makes something purposefully vile and backward such as Hatred, don't be surprised at the general negative response.

The aim is for more awareness and social responsibility, not this very dangerous and slippery political correctness thing.

 

[PinkCrayon]

Listening to that while reading the comments is a good way to a see the condensed version of her everyday online life. Holy hell.

 

[Dio]

Thanks for that, entering this thread as a poster sort of new to the subject you feel as if you have to agree on every point or posters calling for your head.

On the contrary, I've seen quite a few posters in this thread (who I agree with) thinking that Anita's angle of criticism isn't to their liking - but, of course, those people all agree that no one deserves to be harassed like this.

 

[Brakke]

I would be really happy if I never heard the phrase "cherry picked" ever again.

srsly. https://twitter.com/chrisremo/status/538833231823400960.

There's nothing wrong with cherry-picking evidence to support an argument if your argument is there sure seem to be a lot of cherries around

 

[DoktorEvil]

I think the saddest thing about this is that these haters don't seem to realize that portraying realistic women in games would only help further legitimatize games as an art form.

I really think Anita's message isn't coming from an "in your face" approach. Rather, I genuinely think that she, and people like her love games, but want to love them even more.

Games are art forms in many respects. But there's room for growth and further legitimization.

Absolutely. The industry and medium is fairly young. It can become more and I want it to become more.

 

[udivision]

I think the fascinating thing about Anita Sarkeesian's videos is that, like, they're not at all piercing insights! They're very surface-level observations of the problem with representing women video games have, so she's not attacking games on a particularly fundamental basis here. She could actually go way deeper, but a lot of it is just "These games have damsels and use women as props!" Which, yes, they do, why is that making people so mad? You know they do! It's really obvious!

She's not even asking you to think really hard or question indispensable things about your world view or to a hobby you've dedicated your life to. She's just saying, this thing kind of sucks, can we fix this?

And the reaction is "Fuck you, I'll kill you."

I'm of the same mind, don't understand the outrage.

If I went to TV Tropes, found some tropes, and decided to discuss them in the context of games while providing examples... would I be furthering the destruction of our beloved medium? I was on TV Tropes yesterday reading about Gravity Falls... maybe the end of Western Animation is next? It sure had a lot of tropes. And they were listed and explained in the context of the show.

 

[aeolist]

Thanks for that, entering this thread as a poster sort of new to the subject you feel as if you have to agree on every point or posters calling for your head.

i think if you don't agree that the kind of behavior that sarkeesian has to deal with is revolting or that she doesn't deserve it then calls for your head are warranted

discussion of her feminist arguments are entirely beside the point and it's kind of gross that people keep bringing them up. what's the point? are you trying to say that maybe she kind of deserves it because you think she's wrong? if not, why even mention it?

 

[Dice//]

I think the fascinating thing about Anita Sarkeesian's videos is that, like, they're not at all piercing insights! They're very surface-level observations of the problem with representing women video games have, so she's not attacking games on a particularly fundamental basis here. She could actually go way deeper, but a lot of it is just "These games have damsels and use women as props!" Which, yes, they do, why is that making people so mad? You know they do! It's really obvious!

She's not even asking you to think really hard or question indispensable things about your world view or to a hobby you've dedicated your life to. She's just saying, this thing kind of sucks, can we fix this?

And the reaction is "Fuck you, I'll kill you."

Honestly, send a good ol "fuck you", fine, cursing... I HATE that this stupid new age of online social media invites anonymous death threats from so many goddamn idiot nobodies. It's so childish yet a small scary thing if it in any way turned out true.

But yeah, her videos are hardly radical, I don't even care about every single word in them. But so many people have gotten their panties in a tangle over them it's almost amazing if it wasn't so sad..

 

[Palculator]

In any event, I find it ridiculous that academia has ignored ever discussing or critiquing video games at all but give the a-ok for film and music, so if Anita Sarkessian is the closest I will get to sociological video game critique, I'll take it.

Dug one up. Scroll down past the statistics for a whole load of what the academia is doing regarding sociology and gaming. You'll find more if you check out some of Lime's other posts, check out the journals those papers are published in or look into what the authors have published as well.

 

[NickFire]

I think you're deeply misinformed about the situation.

This has nothing to do with "consumers and industry figures don't like you". This doesn't even begin to describe it.

We're not talking about people sending angry e-mails at Phil Harrisson because he wore a Battletoads shirt without announcing a remake.

We're not talking about a stupid politician receiving a bunch of angry tweets the night after saying something stupid about games on Fox News.

Look at this : http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/109319269825/one-week-of-harassment-on-twitter

Everyday like this for 3 years.

+ not being able to go out due to actual death threats.

This is way beyond any consideration of what she has to say or what she has said about games and the games industry. No one should have to live like this.

Holy shit tweets. One thing though - those tweets have me thinking maybe treating these people as mentally ill in need of observation, treatment, etc., on the grounds they pose a danger to themselves and others, could have an effect. Trying to prosecute them all is a tall order I'm guessing because of the high burden of proof (beyond reasonable doubt), making the cost and resources needed untenable on a macro scale. But the civil standard is typically a preponderance of the evidence (more likely than not),civil commitments are often decided on a civil standard of proof, and state run mental facilities can often be as bad as jail.

Obviously, not all of them are truly mentally ill. Some have to be reading that stuff, and if they end up getting treatment the better. The rest though, will learn a valuable lesson just having to defend the court cases, and in some cases from being locked up for 72hour (etc) observation periods to ensure they don't pose a real threat. Not ideal I know, but something needs to be done for these people to tone down the rhetoric from threats of rape/death to heated debate (or anything not involving death and rape threats), and the lack of prosecutions makes me believe its a resource issue. Threatening to rape or murder is a crime in any state.

 

[petran79]

Oh my, YT comments were left on.

Damn good video.

Because video was not from her but from another source.

though even prior to the harassement issue she wasnt very open to online discussions anyway....

 

[RM8]

Agreed, what point do they serve? When I click into a Sarkeesian thread, the majority of the time they've simply devolved into a ban generator with the victors patting themselves on the internet back. Despite the original intention of the thread(s), they all read the same.

You can read in this thread people openly saying they disagree with her and remaining unbanned. Just disagreeing doesn't get you banned, and calling out bad posts is not wrong, I think.

 

[geordiemp]

i think if you don't agree that the kind of behavior that sarkeesian has to deal with is revolting or that she doesn't deserve it then calls for your head are warranted

discussion of her feminist arguments are entirely beside the point and it's kind of gross that people keep bringing them up. what's the point? are you trying to say that maybe she kind of deserves it because you think she's wrong? if not, why even mention it?

Eh ? I did not say that. I agree totally 100 % with her stance against the sad face of social media. Its deplorable....How can you read into what I posted into your response...it boggles my mind.

I game with my 11 year old son. I do not play JRPG or any sexualised games, at all. I don't mind violence in games, prefer sex to stay out of them in all forms.

I agree that some games are very sexist and just wrong and need to be targeted.

My point is that the end game may see more political correctness in AAA western games which I don't agree with. Jeesh, you know, being able to play the knight to save the princess.....escapism....

I am out of here, just trying to make a point and the knives are out, and people making stuff up.

 

[Toxi]

Because video was not from her but from another source.

though even prior to the harassement issue she wasnt very open to online discussions anyway....

Unless you want to debate religion on a video about Super Mario Bros, youtube comments aren't a good place for discussion.

 

[NEO0MJ]

I think the fascinating thing about Anita *Sarkeesian's videos is that, like, they're not at all piercing insights! They're very surface-level observations of the p*roblem with representing women video games have, so she's not attacking games on a particularly fundamental basis here. She could actually go way deeper, but a lot of it is just "These games have damsels and use women as props!" Which, yes, they do, why is that making people so mad? You know they do! It's really obvious!

She's not even asking you to think really hard or question indispensable things about your world view or to a hobby you've dedicated your life to. She's just saying, this thing kind of sucks, can we fix this?

And the reaction is "Fuck you, I'll kill you."

Unfortunately the video game community still has a lot of maturing to do, especially with regards to criticism. Be it game reviews or bad practices, so many would rush to defend them tooth and nail. You don't see this kind of tribalism in most other mediums, except super hero comics.

 

[botty]

I think the fascinating thing about Anita Sarkeesian's videos is that, like, they're not at all piercing insights! They're very surface-level observations of the problem with representing women video games have, so she's not attacking games on a particularly fundamental basis here. She could actually go way deeper, but a lot of it is just "These games have damsels and use women as props!" Which, yes, they do, why is that making people so mad? You know they do! It's really obvious!

She's not even asking you to think really hard or question indispensable things about your world view or to a hobby you've dedicated your life to. She's just saying, this thing kind of sucks, can we fix this?

And the reaction is "Fuck you, I'll kill you."

Exposing the basic, surface level stuff is probably all that these angry people can grasp. I only say that because if they could truly comprehend deeper, I'd think they wouldn't react like this at all.

Thanks for that, entering this thread as a poster sort of new to the subject you feel as if you have to agree on every point or posters calling for your head.

Yeah... if you stick around on Gaf long enough, this feeling goes away.

 

[Ramenman]

I'd like to ask regular posters to give new folks the benefit of the doubt on these issues. It takes a single post to educate someone, and while they probably ought to attempt to figure it out themselves before coming in and giving a wildly inaccurate version of the facts, being lazy isn't a good reason to attack them. Let the moderators figure out who needs a good smacking. The JAQers and trolls always out themselves eventuallly. If you can't respond to them in a reasonable fashion, just ignore the post and let someone less tired of it do the work.

I agree.

 

[Brakke]

Eh ? I did not say that. I agree totally 100 % with her stance against the sad face of social media. Its deplorable....

I agree that some games are very sexist and just wrong and need to be targeted.

My point is that the end game may see more political correctness in AAA western games which I don't agree with.

I think "political correctness" is sort of an empty term by now. Can you articulate what you're actually concerned about?

 

[Marcel]

My point is that the end game may see more political correctness in AAA western games which I don't agree with.

And your slippery slope argument has no legitimate basis. It is by its nature and foundation a fallacy, and in the way you're using it, it's a cowardly, selfish and immature argument that's more worried about 'muh AAA games' than anything socially important.

 

[JDSN]

Eh ? I did not say that. I agree totally 100 % with her stance against the sad face of social media. Its deplorable....How can you read into what I posted into your response...it boggles my mind.

I game with my 11 year old son. I do not play JRPG or any sexualised games, at all. I don't mind violence in games, prefer sex to stay out of them in all forms.

I agree that some games are very sexist and just wrong and need to be targeted.

My point is that the end game may see more political correctness in AAA western games which I don't agree with.

And what is exactly wrong about this? Not really a trick question or anything like that, what do you picture as a " politically correct" game.

 

[Harlequin]

As much as I don't like her videos, nobody deserves being treated the way she has been.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Unless you want to debate religion on a video about Super Mario Bros, youtube comments aren't a good place for discussion.

As a Bowserfarian, this post upsets me.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I like how much GAF is hated by those Youtube commenters. To be hated by youtube commenters = huge compliment, really.

 

[Dice//]

though even prior to the harassement issue she wasnt very open to online discussions anyway....

Honestly, I never got why disabling comments on YouTube was a bad thing, very rarely (especially for more 'prone to discussion' videos like hers are) is there some beautiful and thought-provoking debate and dialogue in those things.

 

[Easy_D]

Good for her, great speech.

I love the ongoing irony that the more who hate the more it gives credence to her cause.

It really was. I mean I liked her work already but this made me respect her all the more.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Says who? The children who think any women characters who aren't dressed like Brazilian bikini models are somehow a threat to them personally?

Arguing against 'PC' is basically just saying 'why can't we be sexist/reacist/etc? We really like those things'.

Art always faces criticism, it's wrong to try to muzzle the critics because you don't like what they are saying. No critic has a gun to a developers head and can force them to do what the dev doesn't want to do.

Gamergate supporters have sincerely argued that reviewers who dislike a game for "social" reasons - terrible/racist/sexist designs, themes, or dialogue - should be banned from metacritic.

Their manifesto's cry for "objective journalism" is to protect the precious scores that are the lifeblood of the AAA industry and fandom. Gaming is still fighting through the attachment to these toxic numbers. Most of the online community didn't even like the latest Hitman game, but the idea of game from a precious series being docked precious points because of ham-fisted sexism is too much for some to bare.

 

[Dio]

My point is that the end game may see more political correctness in AAA western games which I don't agree with.

my personal response to this is: who cares? what is political correctness anyways? I mean, when it comes to 'PC' the image that comes to my mind is one of those cartoons from the 90s with a token blind black kid in a wheelchair that can do everything just as well as everyone else. I really, really doubt that the effect of 'political correctness' will do anything to intrinsically change the churning bland trash that is what comes to mind when one thinks of a 'AAA western game'.

 

[Jumplion]

I would be really happy if I never heard the phrase "cherry picked" ever again.

It's lost all meaning at this point, and I highly doubt Sarkeesian's detractors even know what it means.

It's not "cherry picking" if they're in a cherry orchard with plenty to pick!

 

[C-DubSP]

Avoid the comments guys...

Pretty much good advice on any youtube vid. you watch.

 

[petran79]

Unless you want to debate religion on a video about Super Mario Bros, youtube comments aren't a good place for discussion.

Honestly, I never got why disabling comments on YouTube was a bad thing, very rarely (especially for more 'prone to discussion' videos like hers are) is there some beautiful and thought-provoking debate and dialogue in those things.

Youtube comments turned out like the Deep Internet. You have to dig deep to find any decent discussion, plus I always avoid starting a debate there.

But I mean even if you exclude YT videos, she avoided online discussions even with people that supported her or wanted to discuss in a civil manner. Nowadays that is the right thing for her of course.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Honestly, I never got why disabling comments on YouTube was a bad thing, very rarely (especially for more 'prone to discussion' videos like hers are) is there some beautiful and thought-provoking debate and dialogue in those things.

Doesn't PewDiePie disable them now? YouTube is just a cesspool. Also you run the risk of TotalBiscuit appearing like Candyman to "actually..." you to death.

 

[Peltz]

Absolutely. The industry and medium is fairly young. It can become more and I want it to become more.

Exactly. Imagine if movies solely depicted women in the same way as most games. That'd make for some shit movies, and we'd all feel insulted by it - men and women alike.

That's not to say I don't like the ocassional bro-fest garbage spring-break flick with ditzy bimbos(heck, I'm only human). I've watched those movies like most guys in their twenties.

But if that's all we had, movies wouldn't be art. There's more to that medium, and there should be more to OUR medium as well... as demonstrated by TLOU, among others.

As a straight man, I personally think that I and other straight men are exploited by the games industry and it's actually harming us as it alienates women.

In fact, I am still contemplating making a thread about how MEN are harmed by the tropes of how females are portrayed in games.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

I like how much GAF is hated by those Youtube commenters. To be hated by youtube commenters = huge compliment, really.

A lot of the chan crowd hate us because Gaf will ban you for what they see as normal chan culture. You know, gay bashing, sexism, racism, foul language, etc. Actual moderation scares the crap out of these guys, because they are so use to chan style anything goes be as foul as possible stuff.

 

[SpokkX]

I read those youtube comments

..first and last time I did... These people actually take the time...

Anyway, really sad that she should have to look over her shoulder both physically and digitally just because of the videos she did. Which were not even that controversal imo