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Anita Sarkeesian: 'What I Couldn't Say'
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NoblesseOblige
Banned
Well I have good news for you. Anita isn't pushing for 'over the top PC' in games either. She is asking for the gaming industry and its consumers to create a welcoming environment for all people regardless of their gender/color/race/sexuality/etc.
The account grinder is going to break down at this rate.
I think people should stop pretending that this is a phenomenon exclusive to the internet or related to all kinds of consumer products, there is definitely a contingent of loosely organized twats targeting woman in gaming indiscriminately, the sooner we start accepting that this is part of our community the better we will get at denouncing and hopefully silence this assholes.
Im glad you feel this way man, I kinda expected your whole take on this to be "I just wanna play games", for a boob man, you are ok in my book.
Im glad you feel this way man, I kinda expected your whole take on this to be "I just wanna play games", for a boob man, you are ok in my book.
When did Feminist Frequency say "Fuck you" to the entire video game industry?
i don't think he's ignorant or lazy, i think he's probably a disingenuous asshole. when the gamergate OT was still alive there were literally dozens of posters doing exactly the same shit every day and every last one of them came out as a raving hateful lunatic at the end before getting banned.
No, a JM acting like a fool doesnt count as an example of Poe's.
Now a member acting like a fool, Serious or Sarcasm?
TheSlySoul
Member
I think the main issue debate is alright, but not in any shape or form with Gamergate people. That has turned into a campaign to spew hate.
Also this thread isn't really up for debate. She doesn't deserve any of this crap.
This is what I've always thought. Let's assume that every single word that comes from her mouth is wrong, for this example's sake. She would still not be the worst gaming YouTuber out there, by far, so the hate doesn't come from the quality of her opinions, but from their nature. Angry gamers ripping games apart in inflammatory ways and cussing at developers = fine. Woman saying "here are some tropes, it'd be cool if we could have more variety" = absolutely not okay, screw her, con artist, she deserves the hate (not that the hate isn't self-fabricated, of course), let's respect the Artistic Vision of our beloved developers (except when they do something like the Towerfall developer, or when Nintendo hires a voice actor that disagrees with me), etc.
It's impossibly stupid.
Ah.. thanks for the info. And yea... now that I know what it means, I definitely don't like that term and think it's a bit belittling to Anita and those of us who want to see a deeper critique of games and the characters within them.
Agree, it's over the top in everything else. Would be nice to keep it out of gaming.
DoktorEvil
Banned
There could be something to this. I'd love to see a psych thesis that could merit this argument.
Great speech. It's sad that she has to suffer all of that simply because she made some videos criticizing video games and pointing some very obvious things about them.
But I hope that the fact that she is creating change at least makes it somewhat worth it. Devs re-thinking their approach to gender conventions and initiatives like Intel's would've probably taken longer to happen (or maybe could've never happened) without her work and even if I don't always agree with some of her specific examples I think it's pretty obvious she is having a really good impact on our medium and she deserves all the respect possible for doing so at such big cost.
But I hope that the fact that she is creating change at least makes it somewhat worth it. Devs re-thinking their approach to gender conventions and initiatives like Intel's would've probably taken longer to happen (or maybe could've never happened) without her work and even if I don't always agree with some of her specific examples I think it's pretty obvious she is having a really good impact on our medium and she deserves all the respect possible for doing so at such big cost.
Probably one of the major reasons it was closed was all those disingenuous assholes resetting the topic every time one came along.
not_so_special
Banned
It's kind of like when there's a climate change "skeptic" in a debate that we have to pretend to respect. I don't. There's actually no sense in arguing with crackpots whose agendas are suspect or malicious.
zeroyazi, you seem somewhat sincere and I want to explain some of the hostility: There are a bunch of yahoos out there who make throwaway accounts on GAF just to post comments like your initial post. They also like to make a big show of martyring themselves in this sort of thread whenever possible. Those goofballs can be kind of hard to tell apart from folks who are just misinformed, which is partially their aim.
nrvalleytime
Member
Before you try to catch up to a discussion, make sure you read all there is about this issue. Pleading ignorance or questioning the issue-at this stage of discussions--doesn't bode well.
Start here to find everything about the topic:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/search.php?searchid=30614323
And specifically read these:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=889097&highlight=gamergate
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=918685&highlight=gamergate
The first of those two threads are extremely helpful. Remember this is a public form that moves quickly. Just asking questions, when you've been given the tools to understand, isn't a good excuse.
geordiemp
Member
Totally understand, and agree, but even with a good direction.....the end game vision 'MAY' result in some games being changed to be more Politically Correct. We shall see what unfolds...
Edit ; Thinking about it we will probably never really know, because if a game dev changed a character or story to be more 'correct', us gamers would probably never find out.
Palculator
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think the mods actually do that and in this case the "innocent inquisition in to the subject matter" started off with a post filled with a clearly biased, wrong summary of events. Bursting in guns blazing posting wrong assertions that are then followed by a question mark is usually not the best method to ask for clarification, especially considering the huge amount of seemingly intentional account suicide that's barely indistinguishable.
We will assume you are serious*. As such, you are way off as many have pointed out.
So I'll limit myself to one correcting one part. The industry in general doesnt have a beef with Anita, FF, or the tropes series.
Some of the dev teams are now working with her to tweak their games.
The only ones of note complaining are a vocal micro-minority, whose voices are amplified by the wonders of the internet.
*perhaps a young impressionable mind, looking to grow as a person.
The reason I bring up the trolls on all sides is because of how many people spend all their time making people mad on the internet, and the fact that so many of them gleefully started pretending to be gamergaters or 'SJWs' the minute they saw the powder keg form. They do not care about any of the issues being brought up, they only care if you got pissed off by something they did, and if you're a gamergate supporter and 'got trolled' you're just as fair game as an 'sjw'.
Your slippery slope argument is pretty much bullshit, just like all slippery slope arguments about this subject.
Do you usually fill in with your own ignorance whenever you are encountered with something you know little about and then claim you just wanted to be informed?
Group takes donations to publicly say fuck you to an entire industry?
lol
Depends on your definition of "politically correct." Multiple AAA devs have already stated that her videos have caused them to re-examine their work, because they were including some sexist stuff without even realizing it. She was also cited as a major influence on The Last of Us and Far Cry 4.
I'd like to ask regular posters to give new folks the benefit of the doubt on these issues. It takes a single post to educate someone, and while they probably ought to attempt to figure it out themselves before coming in and giving a wildly inaccurate version of the facts, being lazy isn't a good reason to attack them. Let the moderators figure out who needs a good smacking. The JAQers and trolls always out themselves eventuallly. If you can't respond to them in a reasonable fashion, just ignore the post and let someone less tired of it do the work.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Way off, but you already know this, so I'm going to try to say this and pray it doesn't fall on deaf ears.
Have you ever seen the part of a sit-com where a husband and wife are arguing over paint colors and they can't tell the difference between different shades of blue? To one person, they're entirely different and the choices represent the variety. But they're still just shades of blue.
"A variety of target audiences" is a misnomer. You inherently can not target a variety of audiences. What you see as a variety is just different shades of blue. If you're not into blue, this kind of sucks for you.
I like this idea that if you don't like something, if you want it to change, people paint it as this unreasonable sin and that you must simply be offended it exists. It conjures up the image of you being this Victoria-era woman in a frilly dress who is fainting at the sight of something that disturbs her delicate sensibilities and all other onlookers, being normal people, view this as weak.
It's never presented the other way. It's never shown that people who feel marginalized or left out by something that should be inclusive are stronger or more courageous for wanting to share the highs everyone else gets to experience all the time. No, they're offended ninnies, because we have no concept of people aren't us being, you know, people.
She fundraised a video series to point out problematic aspects of games with regard to how they treat women. She then released a breakdown of where all that money went. None of it was a "Fuck you" to an industry any more than, say, a kickstarted Shovel Knight is a fuck you to modern video games.
As an aside, as someone that's preparing a similar kickstarter this year, I can't wait to be accused of hating video games despite dedicating the better part of my life to them.
This is not David fucking with a sleeping Goliath here, Goliath's been awake for a while and a dick for longer than that. The industry has problems - all industries do. None of them are perfect, but the video game industry has been the only one that rejects criticism of it angrily. Movies, TV, they all say "We can do better." They don't, but they recognize there's a diversity problem and try to fix it. Video games, and especially fans of video games, find the idea repulsive. We've become a bubble and will kill to keep anyone from popping it.
An actual industry debate would be GREAT. I'd love that. What you simplify as a backlash is, in actuality, people with poor social skills who are taking years of angry frustration out on others because they have been raised in an age where there's no consequences for anything. Which, I'll grant you, can effectively describe the industry, but I don't think we want it to.
Is "Fuck You" German or something for "I'm going to rape you, murder you, tell the world you're a slut, send nude pictures of you to unrelated people and accuse them of cheating on their spouses with you, find your address, post it on the internet, then openly discuss how I want you to be thrown in jail"?
Because, wow, German is a really efficient language, if so!
Criticism is not picking a fight. Anyone who thinks it is is a caveman who does not belong in a creative medium because they can not actually take it. Criticism is the silver bullet of artistic expression because it lets artists grow and it lets the medium reach people who never thought they could be touched by particular works. It allows us all to keep moving toward something better without leaving anything good behind.
A teacher grading your essay is not picking a fight. A person going to a movie and not liking it is not picking a fight. Pointing out that Song of the South is an incredibly racist depiction of black people and is better left on the Disney vault floor is not picking a fight.
Describing it as "picking a fight" is picking a fight.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I'd honestly rather games get changed for the reason of 'political correctness' than the current main reason they're changed, which is to make publishers money. Despite that, games aren't going to be changed. We will still get shoot bangs. We will still see games with boobzillas in them. We will however also see new games being introduced that are more welcoming to those outside the 'core gamer' demographic.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Thank you. It must be bad if people are getting to the point of name calling innocent bystanders. Ramenman and yourself have been a couple of the helpful ones so far. I did do my research but it was always ended in a bunch of name calling. I guess I should have expect some directed my way as well. Not everyone has time to sit online and follow it like a daily, real life soap.
This is what confuses me. The way some people act towards her and others like her is straight inhuman
I want to believe this, but man, how come we don't have FilmGate or BookGate as a result of critics? This thing paints gaming in a really terrible light. And it sucks
It might be because those media were well entrenched in the mainstream LONG before the internet, and other ways to easily communicate with large swaths of the world so easily, came into being.
nrvalleytime
Member
I think the saddest thing about this is that these haters don't seem to realize that portraying realistic women in games would only help further legitimatize games as an art form.
I really think Anita's message isn't coming from an "in your face" approach. Rather, I genuinely think that she, and people like her love games, but want to love them even more.
Games are art forms in many respects. But there's room for growth and further legitimization.
I really think Anita's message isn't coming from an "in your face" approach. Rather, I genuinely think that she, and people like her love games, but want to love them even more.
Games are art forms in many respects. But there's room for growth and further legitimization.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
I kind of teared up with this. We were finally making strides to get serious respect for the medium, and actually conserve early, loved games. But now, it's all going to shit. And people are somehow happy. What the fuck, man. Why is the world like this?
I agree, but I wonder: denouncing how? And to whom? This is something I'd love to do, but Google doesn't give a crap, neither does Twitter. And the local authorities sure seem to think it's not that serious. That's just on the internet, though. I guess it might be easier to do in other environments, like an actual, real life debate.
I'd also say that the best thing to fight this is education and time. A new generation of people who will play games will hopefully be more open, and see the ideas of Anita as obvious and easy to follow, and not send death threats to her and her family.
You are not a martyr for being lazy so for the love of christ stop whining already.
Everyone with a different opinion doesnt get banned.
Individuals misbehaving get banned.
If an individual happens to make a post that is earnest but misguided and flouting the general rules of the forum they may unfortunately get the hammer before getting a chance to explain themselves.
Nevertheless, given that when granting Junior Member status you are told to be on your best behavior (for 3 months & 300 posts), perhaps one should be well advised to read the rules when joining this weird group.
Edit: looks like while I was writing this one a mod posted and kind of said something similar, mea culpa on being late.
It's always been disingenuous when every time Sarkeesian comes up people titter on about how she "only" produces a few videos a year, how she's betrayed her Kickstarter backers or whatever. That series is obviously just one component of her work for Feminist Frequency. Girl's out pounding the pavement at all kind of stuff like this, forwarding basically the same goal as the video series.
The Lamonster
Member
I don't think dismissive posts like this should be okay here either.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Neil Druckmann, creative director of The Last of Us, GAFs favorite game of the forever and 2014 GDC GOTY, openly credited Anita's work for helping make TLOU a better representation of women.
It's too late, the womenz are stealing our games. Seriously though, with this as a prominent example, it's kind of obvious that more inclusive representation means "women that are actually written like women" instead of goofy PC mascots or scantily clad sex slaves.
wasn't lazy. not intending to sound whiny. Did research but haven't been able to keep up. tried boiling the issue down to basics with a couple metaphorical FU's and literal FU to be on topic. Realizing I should F-off.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Sadly I'd place my bet on a sizable portion of them being in the 18-25 year old demographic.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Those Youtube comments I read sounds like some shit that would come from a conservative or any other right leaning website.
The fucking comments, I swear.
It's unbelievable how many people take any sort of talk about sexism, racism, or homophobia so goddamn personally. Me thinks they doth protest too much.
And good lord, the claims of her unable to take "criticism", as if it fucking matters, as if she's recieving "legitimate" criticism underneath all those death and rape threats, as if other people in GG are soooo good at receiving criticism, as if they give a shit about her answering her critics (see this bullshit), as if anyone gives a shit about what they think.
Seriously, there needs to be something to take a stand against this bullshit. Like, a real, sturdy wall, no ifs ands or buts about it. Nothing ambiguous of "oh, we're against harassment", but seriously "stop this fucking bullshit right now you ungrateful little shits". It infuriates me that this shit has been going on for so long and nothing's changed in the grand scheme of things.
It's unbelievable how many people take any sort of talk about sexism, racism, or homophobia so goddamn personally. Me thinks they doth protest too much.
And good lord, the claims of her unable to take "criticism", as if it fucking matters, as if she's recieving "legitimate" criticism underneath all those death and rape threats, as if other people in GG are soooo good at receiving criticism, as if they give a shit about her answering her critics (see this bullshit), as if anyone gives a shit about what they think.
Seriously, there needs to be something to take a stand against this bullshit. Like, a real, sturdy wall, no ifs ands or buts about it. Nothing ambiguous of "oh, we're against harassment", but seriously "stop this fucking bullshit right now you ungrateful little shits". It infuriates me that this shit has been going on for so long and nothing's changed in the grand scheme of things.
geordiemp
Member
Thinking about it I sort of agree, maybe the main western type games I play I don't really notice it. (as I mainly game with my 11 yr old son)...
I don't really buy or play JRPG or such and don't really come across much of this stuff in stuff I play. Sometimes I go into the Japanese sales thread to see what they are playing and some of the stuff is over the top and needs to change.
Its good that threads like these make people who are not into feminism or gamergate can think about such stuff. GAF needs to go easy on us...
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