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[BreezyLimbo]

Let's not bring up South Park. That shit has some pretty transphobic stuff in it.

South Park makes fun of everything though

 

[Mael]

South Park makes fun of everything though

Ah yes the show with morals and where every answer is in the middle...

 

[stufte]

Let's not bring up South Park. That shit has some pretty transphobic stuff in it.

So are you saying everything else was fine and dandy, but the transphobic stuff is where the line should be drawn?

Again, as it relates to GTA, why is the killing of a sex worker where you draw your line? There are plenty of things that are presented in GTA that in the real world are considered abhorent.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So are you saying everything else was fine and dandy, but the transphobic stuff is where the line should be drawn?

Again, as it relates to GTA, why is the killing of a sex worker where you draw your line? There is plenty of things that are presented in GTA that in the real world are considered abhorent.

One of the most oppressed groups in the country, one of the most prone to suicide, and a group that can be described as being disproportionately the victims of murder. South Park made an episode that basically made the argument of "transethnic" and "transspecies". This is what's called "punching down." Making fun of a group where it's legal to make the defense of trans panic in every single state in the US.

I really shouldn't have to explain why making fun of trans people should be off limits. Maybe when they're treated like equals, they can be mocked equally. The latter should never, ever predate the former. Ever.

 

[Opto]

So are you saying everything else was fine and dandy, but the transphobic stuff is where the line should be drawn?

Again, as it relates to GTA, why is the killing of a sex worker where you draw your line? There is plenty of things that are presented in GTA that in the real world are considered abhorent.

Dear god you're repugnant along with Basketball. Link didn't say any such thing. We're talking about a specific point that Anita brought up and then you're asking "WHAT ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE"

Fine you want total condemnation, GTA's writers are garbage and typical libertarian assholes that hide behind the "equally making fun" bullshit. You want to equally shit on everyone? Make sure they're equal in society. Not just in your mind, in society's.

 

[stufte]

Dear god you're repugnant along with Basketball. Link didn't say any such thing. We're talking about a specific point that Anita brought up and then you're asking "WHAT ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE"

Fine you want total condemnation, GTA's writers are garbage and typical libertarian assholes that hide behind the "equally making fun" bullshit. You want to equally shit on everyone? Make sure they're equal in society. Not just in your mind, in society's.

Yah. Thanks for cranking this up to 11. I'm out. I was posting in good faith and don't need the name calling. Link to the Snitch was offering up some great conversation on this, and was happy to hear what he/she had to say. I'm not willing to entertain your hostile attitude.

*edit* Thanks for the conversation Snitch. Even though I don't agree with you on everything, I appreciate your candor.

 

[A Link to the Past]

South Park makes fun of everything though

Yes. Unfortunately, making fun of trans people hurts trans people more than it does other groups. As I said, the desire for equality requires that they first be treated equal in important things, not mockery.

Yah. Thanks for cranking this up to 11. I'm out. I was posting in good faith and don't need the name calling. Link to the Snitch was offering up some great conversation on this, and was happy to hear what he/she had to say. I'm not willing to entertain your hostile attitude.

*edit* Thanks for the conversation Snitch. Even though I don't agree with you on everything, I appreciate your candor.

I don't appreciate that you're tone policing Opto, and I don't appreciate that you're using me to suggest a standard that Opto should try to achieve.

 

[Mael]

Yes. Unfortunately, making fun of trans people hurts trans people more than it does other groups. As I said, the desire for equality requires that they first be treated equal in important things, not mockery.

At this point anyone who have a shred of empathy understand that.
I mean when you're mocking multibillionaires, at least they can cry on their moneybeds.
What is even the point of mocking a guy on the verge of suicide who doesn't have any money and leaving in the street?

 

[stufte]

Yes. Unfortunately, making fun of trans people hurts trans people more than it does other groups. As I said, the desire for equality requires that they first be treated equal in important things, not mockery.



I don't appreciate that you're tone policing Opto, and I don't appreciate that you're using me to suggest a standard that Opto should try to achieve.

Pointing out that Opto was namecalling and hostile to me is not tone policing. Maybe I was wrong about your interactions with me. Have fun.

 

[Nekofrog]

At this point anyone who have a shred of empathy understand that.
I mean when you're mocking multibillionaires, at least they can cry on their moneybeds.
What is even the point of mocking a guy on the verge of suicide who doesn't have any money and leaving in the street?

because it's making fun of EVERYONE goddammittttt

 

[A Link to the Past]

Pointing out that Opto was namecalling and hostile to me is not tone policing. Maybe I was wrong about your interactions with me. Have fun.

Clearly, if me criticizing something you did is enough to change your opinion of me, that opinion must not have been very valuable. You were saying something that clearly offended Opto. And frankly, it was gross ignorance on your part to not understand why making fun of trans people is bad, or straight up gross.

 

[Teriaaaaa!]

I'll never get how this person makes so many people so angry, you think people would have gotten over it by now. I don't even agree with all the things I've heard her say, but the people who oppose her in such a vile way are just proving her points about the misogamy in the gaming community.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yes. Unfortunately, making fun of trans people hurts trans people more than it does other groups. As I said, the desire for equality requires that they first be treated equal in important things, not mockery.

Indeed, but it's a realization you have to come to that as Trans issues come to light and garner more media attention, that there will be an equal amount of mockery being born from that as well. It's not what we want but, it's the reality of it. South Park won't isn't the first nor will it be the last, and if people had issue with South Park(They've always delved into controversy quite liberally), then they can choose to stop watching it. But South Park doesn't go out of its way to make fun of just tran folk while giving a pass to everything else. They mock and insult alot of things.

So to me it's a bit weird to hate a show for one thing when they mock alot more than just that.

 

[delta25]

I'll never get how this person makes so many people so angry, you think people would have gotten over it by now. I don't even agree with all the things I've heard her say, but the people who oppose her in such a vile way are just proving her points about the misogamy in the gaming community.

I personally dont like her at all, but some of the shit she's had to endure is pretty bad.

 

[Mael]

because it's making fun of EVERYONE goddammittttt

And? Where's the added value in that?
On top of that good job making someone's miserable life even more miserable.
Then again there's people that want poor miserable people dead/be even more miserable because they're poor.

I'll never get how this person makes so many people so angry, you think people would have gotten over it by now. I don't even agree with all the things I've heard her say, but the people who oppose her in such a vile way are just proving her points about the misogamy in the gaming community.

I guess GGers are also against mariage too...

 

[FiggyCal]

At this point anyone who have a shred of empathy understand that.
I mean when you're mocking multibillionaires, at least they can cry on their moneybeds.
What is even the point of mocking a guy on the verge of suicide who doesn't have any money and leaving in the street?

That's not funny because that's not a joke. Clearly people watch South Park for more than just laughing at people that are different or disatvantaged -- because that in itself is not funny. People aren't laughing at transgendered people on South Park, or Jews or whatever group of people in question is. It's like watching Archie Bunker on All in the Family; sure some people will laugh at the things he says because they agree with him. But that's not really the point of his character. And I imagine that most people that watch it and South Park understand that. It has to be a tiny percentage of people that don't and genuinely think the show being mean spirited is the joke -- which it isn't.

 

[Nekofrog]

And? Where's the added value in that?

Check my post history in this thread. I thought my post was sarcastic enough.

 

[Michanical]

Sure, but the guy makes up a single quotation of a whole blog post about a convention, just to be used months later by totally unrelated persons?

Is not like he went to every site out there and said:"Look at what this woman said!!", the dude made a post about a series of conferences, making his own opinion of it and reaching his own conclussions, then in the whole post he makes a quotation of one of Anita's answers.

Seeing this as some king of Machiavellian to be used against Anita months later requires some imagination and ill feelings.

The guy as much posses himself as a more of a neutral stance, with the "2 sides" argument, which I know some people consider it insulting, since there aren't two sides, but hardly makes him either an GG apologist...

I agree, actually, about his website. He seems to disagree with Anita, strongly, but nothing he writes is as inflammatory as making up a quote would be.

That said, we don't know the context of that quote and I wish I had the transcript to fully understand her point. The most inflammatory things I've read by her were when a reasonable statement was taken out of context by people attempting to turn her words into mob fodder unfairly.

 

[DrBo42]

Dear god you're repugnant along with Basketball. Link didn't say any such thing. We're talking about a specific point that Anita brought up and then you're asking "WHAT ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE"

Fine you want total condemnation, GTA's writers are garbage and typical libertarian assholes that hide behind the "equally making fun" bullshit. You want to equally shit on everyone? Make sure they're equal in society. Not just in your mind, in society's.

Wow. R.I.P. comedy, you had a good run.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That's not funny because that's not a joke. Clearly people watch South Park for more than just laughing at people that are different or disatvantaged -- because that in itself is not funny. People aren't laughing at transgendered people on South Park, or Jews or whatever group of people in question is. It's like watching Archie Bunker on All in the Family; sure some people will laugh at the things he says because they agree with him. But that's not really the point of his character. And I imagine that most people that watch it and South Park understand that. It has to be a tiny percentage of people that don't and genuinely think the show being mean spirited is the joke -- which it isn't.

South Park is funny because of the situation the characters get in. Cartman doing commentary for things happening around South Park, it's so stupid and unbelievable that it's funny. Or the Canadian Devil putting microtransactions in everything and Stan getting addicted to it, or them getting ganked over and over in World of Warcraft.

It's just funny. The most direct hate I've seen from the show is towards Scientology and their complete mockery of it.

 

[Mael]

That's not funny because that's not a joke. Clearly people watch South Park for more than just laughing at people that are different -- because that in itself is not funny. People aren't laughing at transgendered people on South Park, or Jews or whatever group of people in question is. It's like watching Archie Bunker on All in the Family; sure some people will laugh at the things he says because they agree with him. But that's not really the point of his character. And I imagine that most people that watch it and South Park understand that. It has to be a tiny percentage of people that don't and genuinely think the show being mean spirited is the joke -- which it isn't.

You have way more faith in the usual tv watcher than they have any right.
It's a poor deflection that's akin to Homer laughing at Lisa getting hammered in Hokey by saying he's laughing 'with her' instead of 'at her'.
Jokes at the expense of minorities SP makes fun off hasn't lessened, their situation hasn't improved as a result but now on top of that they have more jokes levied at them.
Or 'with them' heh?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Wow. R.I.P. comedy, you had a good run.

Yeah, it's too bad. Because comedy is more important than actually giving any level of consideration to equity in mockery. Should Christians be equally mocked as much as trans people? Or should people put any thought into their comedy and how it affects people?

But yeah, I guess trans people are an acceptable loss for the sake of lulz.

EDIT: But yeah, no. Their episodes on transphobia are direct hate of trans people. If you're mocking Scientologists and trans people equally, you're doing something really, really wrong.

 

[Mael]

Check my post history in this thread. I thought my post was sarcastic enough.

Time to change the batteries...

 

[FiggyCal]

Yeah, it's too bad. Because comedy is more important than actually giving any level of consideration to equity in mockery. Should Christians be equally mocked as much as trans people? Or should people put any thought into their comedy and how it affects people?

But yeah, I guess trans people are an acceptable loss for the sake of lulz.

EDIT: But yeah, no. Their episodes on transphobia are direct hate of trans people. If you're mocking Scientologists and trans people equally, you're doing something really, really wrong.

Who gets to decide who's worthy of being made fun of?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Who gets to decide who's worthy of being made fun of?

The most privileged people in the world apparently

Because if people who are literally treated like animals in our society take issue with comedy, then they get attacked even more than they already are because they dare speak up about equity in mockery.

The choice to mock all groups equally is the choice to be a shithead. If you want to treat trans people like equals only when it comes to mocking people, then you don't have the right to take issue when people call you out on it.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Yeah, it's too bad. Because comedy is more important than actually giving any level of consideration to equity in mockery. Should Christians be equally mocked as much as trans people? Or should people put any thought into their comedy and how it affects people?

But yeah, I guess trans people are an acceptable loss for the sake of lulz.

EDIT: But yeah, no. Their episodes on transphobia are direct hate of trans people. If you're mocking Scientologists and trans people equally, you're doing something really, really wrong.

Just for reference, are we talking about The Cissy? Or just South Park and Trans in general? Because in The Cissy trans people aren't really hated at or mocked(The episode ends with the school letting anyone use whichever restroom they're comfortable using, and if there's anyone who has an issue with that they can use 'The Cissy Restroom'.)

For those who are bothered by transgender people, a new designation is made to keep them away from the normal people who do not care: cissy bathrooms.

In which case...it's not transphobic, but it's mocking people who have issue with transgender folk using the correct restroom for their gender.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm talking about Kyle becoming black and his dad becoming a dolphin.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I'm talking about Kyle becoming black and his dad becoming a dolphin.

So you agree that South Park isn't as transphobic as you thought it was?

 

[Opto]

If there's comedy to be had about trans people (and I don't think that's impossible) it probably shouldn't be along the lines of

Michael: Hello, sir. I mean, madam. I mean, ~whatever~
Michael: Well, hello, Mid-op.
Franklin: Almost fooled me, (bro-she?). Almost.
Franklin: Hey, you need to keep taking your hormones!

 

[A Link to the Past]

So you agree that South Park isn't as transphobic as you thought it was?

Did they remove that episode from their lineup? Did they apologize for it? Did they for even a single moment mention that they've changed their views?

 

[Mael]

Did they remove that episode from their lineup? Did they apologize for it? Did they for even a single moment mention that they've changed their views?

They're libertarians, of course they don't care about consequences.

 

[DrBo42]

Yeah, it's too bad. Because comedy is more important than actually giving any level of consideration to equity in mockery. Should Christians be equally mocked as much as trans people? Or should people put any thought into their comedy and how it affects people?

But yeah, I guess trans people are an acceptable loss for the sake of lulz.

EDIT: But yeah, no. Their episodes on transphobia are direct hate of trans people. If you're mocking Scientologists and trans people equally, you're doing something really, really wrong.

Yikes. Listen, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to employ some sort of regulation on comedy depending on who someone deems to be safe to make fun of etc. If we can't have a laugh at ourselves regardless of who we are then really what's the point. Now if you're talking about borderline hate speech, that's entirely different and obviously not acceptable.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Did they remove that episode from their lineup? Did they apologize for it? Did they for even a single moment mention that they've changed their views?

Their views on what? You think they were taking some political stance?

"That's just me saying something terrible because it makes me laugh that it upsets you" - Louis CK

SP is just shock comedy, the more political incorrect they are I think the more laugh the creators get. They aren't making any social/political commentary, is just incorrect for the sake of being incorrect.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Did they remove that episode from their lineup? Did they apologize for it? Did they for even a single moment mention that they've changed their views?

Which episode? The one I linked?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yikes. Listen, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to employ some sort of regulation on comedy depending on who someone deems to be safe to make fun of etc. If we can't have a laugh at ourselves regardless of who we are then really what's the point. Now if you're talking about borderline hate speech, that's entirely different and obviously not acceptable.

Are you trans? Are you at all able to understand why trans people can't laugh at themselves when they could literally be killed any time, because people kill trans people for no other reason than being trans?

You take waaay more issue with comedy being censored than with trans people being able to not be made fun of in a society that despises them.

Which episode? The one I linked?

The episode I'm describing, wherein they make fun of trans people by having Kyle and his dad have ethnic/species transitions (which are common arguments made by transphobes - "what if I want to say I'm a dog, or black?").

Their views on what? You think they were taking some political stance?

"That's just me saying something terrible because it makes me laugh that it upsets you" - Louis CK

SP is just shock comedy, the more political incorrect they are I think the more laugh the creators get. They aren't making any social/political commentary, is just incorrect for the sake of being incorrect.

So basically SP is like GamerGate - getting a rise out of minorities because it gets them attention.

 

[Oersted]

Yikes. Listen, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to employ some sort of regulation on comedy depending on who someone deems to be safe to make fun of etc. If we can't have a laugh at ourselves regardless of who we are then really what's the point. Now if you're talking about borderline hate speech, that's entirely different and obviously not acceptable.

There is a difference between laughing with and laughing at. If you laugh at marginalized groups, you got issues.

But lets stop the derail here.

 

[Nekofrog]

Yikes. Listen, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to employ some sort of regulation on comedy depending on who someone deems to be safe to make fun of etc. If we can't have a laugh at ourselves regardless of who we are then really what's the point. Now if you're talking about borderline hate speech, that's entirely different and obviously not acceptable.

"I'm a subjugated minority who is looked at and despised by much of modern society; seen as less than a human being and more of an animal; am more likely to be victimized by society in both physical terms that could equate my murder more than any other group and mental terms that can leave emotional scarring for the rest of my life, have higher rates of depression and suicide due to the way society treats me. BUT HEY EVERYONE LAUGH AT ME BECAUSE LOLOLOLOL"

Disgusting.

 

[Michanical]

Which episode? The one I linked?

He's talking about this episode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Garrison's_Fancy_New_Vagina

I forgot about it myself. Thinking back on it, it's pretty vile.

Yikes. Listen, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to employ some sort of regulation on comedy depending on who someone deems to be safe to make fun of etc. If we can't have a laugh at ourselves regardless of who we are then really what's the point. Now if you're talking about borderline hate speech, that's entirely different and obviously not acceptable.

Yikes. Well, consider this: what point of view do the creators really have to understand trans issues? Their Mr./Ms. Garrison story arc was never particularly sensitive to trans issues.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The episode I'm describing, wherein they make fun of trans people by having Kyle and his dad have ethnic/species transitions (which are common arguments made by transphobes - "what if I want to say I'm a dog, or black?").

Ah, I see. Well, it's making fun of that argument isn't it? It's not really offensive to trans folk(Except probably the portrayal of Mrs. Garrison having second thoughts...but that's probably something that happens.). In the episode there is no 'Haha look at these transgenders'. No, it runs along with the absurd idea that kyle thinks he's black and his dad tries to become a dolphin.

I don't see how it's offensive to transfolk to make fun of the argument of 'Well what If I'm transethnic?'. It doesn't give those arguments a platform-It mocks them.

I don't get how you think it's transphobic.

 

[Nekofrog]

Ah, I see. Well, it's making fun of that argument isn't it? It's not really offensive to trans folk(Except probably the portrayal of Mrs. Garrison having second thoughts...but that's probably something that happens.). In the episode there is no 'Haha look at these transgenders'. No, it runs along with the absurd idea that kyle thinks he's black and his dad tries to become a dolphin.

I don't see how it's offensive to transfolk to make fun of the argument of 'Well what If I'm transethnic?'. It doesn't give those arguments a platform-It mocks them.

I don't get how you think it's transphobic.

That's the problem.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

So basically SP is like GamerGate - getting a rise out of minorities because it gets them attention.

GG is not about attention, is about sistematically excluding any view that isn't supporting their sexist misoginistic narrow view of their hobby.

SP is just a bunch of guys doing shock humor to make you upset and had a laugh while doing it. At least that's the feel I get looking at the show.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Ah, I see. Well, it's making fun of that argument isn't it? It's not really offensive to trans folk(Except probably the portrayal of Mrs. Garrison having second thoughts...but that's probably something that happens.). In the episode there is no 'Haha look at these transgenders'. No, it runs along with the absurd idea that kyle thinks he's black and his dad tries to become a dolphin.

I don't see how it's offensive to transfolk to make fun of the argument of 'Well what If I'm transethnic?'. It doesn't give those arguments a platform-It mocks them.

I don't get how you think it's transphobic.

Using these ideas is in and of itself transphobic. The fact that trans people consistently react to the episode negatively, and pretty consistently, should be adequate to say that the episode is pretty transphobic. You can have that interpretation - that it's making fun of the ideas - but that you don't see other perspectives is super troublesome.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

That's the problem.

Using these ideas is in and of itself transphobic. The fact that trans people consistently react to the episode negatively, and pretty consistently, should be adequate to say that the episode is pretty transphobic. You can have that interpretation - that it's making fun of the ideas - but that you don't see other perspectives is super troublesome.

So that means you can never make fun of the 'Transethnic' or 'Transanimal' people? Because to me, that's what this episode ends up doing.

 

[MrHoot]

It would be taking a particularily dense and dishonest line of thinking that Matt and Trey Parker have any ill will against transgendered people and should need to apologize, a long running of their show and their point of view should be telling enough. Sure that episode wasn't the best, they sometimes miss the spot but we're getting way into hyperbolic to call for censor or apologies, plus we're getting off topic

 

[DrBo42]

"I'm a subjugated minority who is looked at and despised by much of modern society; seen as less than a human being and more of an animal; am more likely to be victimized by society in both physical terms that could equate my murder more than any other group and mental terms that can leave emotional scarring for the rest of my life, have higher rates of depression and suicide due to the way society treats me. BUT HEY EVERYONE LAUGH AT ME BECAUSE LOLOLOLOL"

Disgusting.

Why does everything have to be cranked up to 11 in here? Good lord. It was a completely innocent thought with no malice behind it. I honestly had no idea this thread was trans focused as the OP is something completely different.

 

[Nekofrog]

Why does everything have to be cranked up to 11 in here? Good lord. It was a completely innocent thought with no malice behind it. I honestly had no idea this thread was trans focused as the OP is something completely different.

What you call "cranking up to 11" I call "addressing a poster's nonsense in a blunt manner".

 

[A Link to the Past]

It would be taking a particularily dense and dishonest line of thinking that Matt and Trey Parker have any ill will against transgendered people and should need to apologize, a long running of their show and their point of view should be telling enough. Sure that episode wasn't the best, they sometimes miss the spot but we're getting way into hyperbolic to call for censor or apologies, plus we're getting off topic

So they're allowed to say transphobic stuff and express transphobic views, but so long as they aren't actually transphobic, it's okay for them to do all of that? Like, if you're not racist, you can say the n-word?

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Yikes. Listen, I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous it is to employ some sort of regulation on comedy depending on who someone deems to be safe to make fun of etc. If we can't have a laugh at ourselves regardless of who we are then really what's the point. Now if you're talking about borderline hate speech, that's entirely different and obviously not acceptable.

Do you understand what it means to be trans? I do, I'm trans, and I leave out of my apartment with weapons to defend myself in a "progressive" state like Massachusetts after a gang of teenage kids sent me to the ER because I was just walking by. When I was 16, I had to quit high school because the harassment and bullying I was getting since Grade 5 was too intense for me and my grades were reaching Ds and Fs.

You think the lives of trans is a joke? Do you understand what its like to be afraid almost everyday of your life because you are different? The way trans are portrayed in media is disgusting, its always the same joke about an over-masculine looking transwoman acting extremely feminine and everyone is laughing because "Hahaha, they're a freak for being different". The media always shows the idea that boys are suppose to look, act, and be interested in this and girls are suppose to look, act, and be interested in that, and if you cross that line, you're a freak and you deserve to be humiliated. That isn't funny, not to me and the other trans people who goes through the bullshit society toss at us everyday because we're different.

As Snitch says, if we were all equal and I didn't have to live my life in fear almost everyday because of the current inequality and prejudice we face, then I wouldn't feel as hurt by those jokes and could just shrug it off, but we don't live in such a world yet.

 

[KmA]

It's very disconcerting how many of you are unwilling to look at comedy through the eyes of a minority. Comedy is a great tool to combat injustice. But at the same time, it can have the opposite effect when in the hands of the privileged. Look at political cartoons dealing with woman from 1900-1960. They all basically tell us how "suffrage is ruining women!" But it's comedy right? We should just deal with it?

 

[FiggyCal]

So they're allowed to say transphobic stuff and express transphobic views, but so long as they aren't actually transphobic, it's okay for them to do all of that? Like, if you're not racist, you can say the n-word?

Yes and South Park has done it before; but there has to be a point to it. Like with their "Nigger-guy" episode.

I should probably clarify that I didn't mean yes to the first part.