Support NeoGAF

[Westbahnhof]

So, here we are.
Wahlkarten all there and counted, with a really solid 80% of people using their right to vote.

No greens after 31 years. They had it coming I guess, but still.. Good times ahead.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Friend of mine highlighted a terrifying result of this vote. NEOS FPO and OVP together have a 2/3rds majority to alter the constitution.

 

[Westbahnhof]

Friend of mine highlighted a terrifying result of this vote. NEOS FPO and OVP together have a 2/3rds majority to alter the constitution.

Oh, yeah.
Haha.

 

[Dingens]

Friend of mine highlighted a terrifying result of this vote. NEOS FPO and OVP together have a 2/3rds majority to alter the constitution.

I wonder what's stronger... their desire to fuck with the welfare state or their dislike for the the FPÖ?

let's just hope it's the latter

Spoiler

who am I kidding? they are neo-liberals, of course they wont pass up on an opportunity like this.

 

[derFeef]

Friend of mine highlighted a terrifying result of this vote. NEOS FPO and OVP together have a 2/3rds majority to alter the constitution.

YeahnoIwannadie.

 

[Dingens]

and there it is:
http://derstandard.at/2000066412632/Gespraeche-Kurz-will-mit-Strolz-Verfassungsmaterien-ausloten

whatever they do, it will be almost impossible to reverse, probably forever.

goodbye, welfare state. you had a good run

Spoiler

and the worst part is, those who will be affected the most won't even understand that they are the ones responsible for this

 

[Ac30]

and there it is:
http://derstandard.at/2000066412632/Gespraeche-Kurz-will-mit-Strolz-Verfassungsmaterien-ausloten

whatever they do, it will be almost impossible to reverse, probably forever.

goodbye, welfare state. you had a good run

Spoiler

and the worst part is, those who will be affected the most won't even understand that they are the ones responsible for this

I can’t access the article through translate, I’m guessing it’s something to do with Kurz and the NEOs looking for a deal?

 

[Dingens]

well you can copy and paste it:

(haven't checked for any errors though)

ÖVP boss first met the Neos chairman for exploratory talks - Strolz proposes work agreements with opposition parties-
ÖVP chairman Sebastian Kurz took Neos boss Matthias Strolz on the Freitagnachmittag for the first exploratory talk. In short, we want to explore the major reform projects that can be implemented with the Neos, which in the future can ensure a constitutional majority in parliament. Strolz, on the other hand, proposed work agreements with the opposition parties. The two party men came to the ÖVP-Club in the pavilion at Heldenplatz around 4 pm. On arrival, Kurz briefly told journalists that he has today received the mandate to form a government, and this days begins with the exploratory talks. He hopes to agree on a good form of cooperation, especially since "too much hick-hack", the Foreign Minister said.
With Strolz, he wants to talk specifically about possibilities in the parliament, how large reform projects with two-thirds majority can be implemented, according to Kurz. Asked about his meeting with FPÖ chief Heinz-Christian Strache on Wednesday evening, Kurz explained that after the election, he had tried on an informal level to get in touch with everyone. The Neos chairman emphasized before the now formal date that it was a first exchange and it was good that it is so fast forward. He wants to address the pink content such as education, tax reduction or pension reform, he announced to journalists. As an opposition party, the neos want to be a "control force": "We will not leave out." However, a design role and a majority creator were also gaining importance. Strolz also proposes that the government agrees with the respective opposition parties a labor agreement, it would need "at every corner" constitutional pluralities - this would be "professional". According to the pink fractional faction, the debt brake could soon be put into constitutional form. In the short term, there should also be no increase in the funding of the parties in 2018 and Strolz demanded that the OVP should "stop the tactics" during Cold Progression. (APA, 20.10.2017) -

 

[Ac30]

well you can copy and paste it:

(haven't checked for any errors though)

Yeah sorry was on my phone earlier. Thanks for the translated post.

I can't imagine Kurz and the FPO want to change the constitution for the better.

 

[Dingens]

Yeah sorry was on my phone earlier. Thanks for the translated post.

I can't imagine Kurz and the FPO want to change the constitution for the better.

there are at least 3 things they have been talking about for a while which are likely supported by the NEOS:

the first would be a growth obligation- practically forcing governments to do what ever is necessary to generate economic growth. While some would argue this sounds great. it's quite problematic as it is going to be used to ignore all sorts of regulations concerning public safety, health and environmental protection. There are already examples where people in charge are waiting for it to be enacted

The second thing is already mentioned in the article: a public debt limit. While it may also sound great to neo-liberals, it effectively kills any leeway a state would have to tackle unexpected developments. Social spending will be the first victim, that much is almost certain.

The third area concerns chamber membership... explaining this unique feature would probably take too long. Let's just say, it has been an incremental part of the social contract for decades, and breaking it up will inevitably throw millions under the bus. Minimal wages, yearly wage increases, bonus payments, maternity leave, pensions, working hours, consumer protection, all kinds of social support and all sorts of wealth transfers will be at risk.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yipes. RIP Arbeiterkammer. :/

Explaining Sozialpartnerschaft to non-Austrians is incredibly difficult.

 

[Ac30]

there are at least 3 things they have been talking about for a while which are likely supported by the NEOS:

the first would be a growth obligation- practically forcing governments to do what ever is necessary to generate economic growth. While some would argue this sounds great. it's quite problematic as it is going to be used to ignore all sorts of regulations concerning public safety, health and environmental protection. There are already examples where people in charge are waiting for it to be enacted

The second thing is already mentioned in the article: a public debt limit. While it may also sound great to neo-liberals, it effectively kills any leeway a state would have to tackle unexpected developments. Social spending will be the first victim, that much is almost certain.

The third area concerns chamber membership... explaining this unique feature would probably take too long. Let's just say, it has been an incremental part of the social contract for decades, and breaking it up will inevitably throw millions under the bus. Minimal wages, yearly wage increases, bonus payments, maternity leave, pensions, working hours, consumer protection, all kinds of social support and all sorts of wealth transfers will be at risk.

Fuck me, all of that sounds awful. Especially the first and third ones.

 

[Zaru]

Welp, our country had a good run, but this is game over.

 

[Zatoth]

Love it when I read comments on this like "It can only become better."

Are people really that blinded by their xenophobia?

 

[Deleted member 98878]

Love it when I read comments on this like "It can only become better."

Are people really that blinded by their xenophobia?

Yes.

 

[Mivey]

there are at least 3 things they have been talking about for a while which are likely supported by the NEOS:

the first would be a growth obligation- practically forcing governments to do what ever is necessary to generate economic growth. While some would argue this sounds great. it's quite problematic as it is going to be used to ignore all sorts of regulations concerning public safety, health and environmental protection. There are already examples where people in charge are waiting for it to be enacted

The second thing is already mentioned in the article: a public debt limit. While it may also sound great to neo-liberals, it effectively kills any leeway a state would have to tackle unexpected developments. Social spending will be the first victim, that much is almost certain.

The third area concerns chamber membership... explaining this unique feature would probably take too long. Let's just say, it has been an incremental part of the social contract for decades, and breaking it up will inevitably throw millions under the bus. Minimal wages, yearly wage increases, bonus payments, maternity leave, pensions, working hours, consumer protection, all kinds of social support and all sorts of wealth transfers will be at risk.

Expect for the "growth obligation", which I don't quite understand. Growth is also driven by macro economic things outside the control of Vienna. Look at the 2008 crisis, and the slow recovery. No government could have done that significantly better. So what would such a principle accomplish? Sounds like hog wash, at best it could just be a declaration of intent, but that's kinda worthless as any law.
I kinda approve of the other two things, though. Increase of debt to increase social spending isn't a solely good thing, in my opinion.
And as far as breaking up the chamber system, well, I don't quite believe Kurz on that front. Both chambers, especially the Wirschaftskammer for the OVP, are deeply entrenched in Austrian politics. Sure, in principle a simple 2/3 vote would be enough, but there would be enormous pressure from his own party, the federal states and much of the population. I am merely expecting a surface level reform, and probably just for the Arbeiterkammer.
This is pretty much what the Neos ran on this election, would be strange if they balk away because the FPÖ also votes for it. And that's how democracy works. Of the 80% of voters, 2/3 did vote for parties with these things in their programs. If the Social democrats had gotten over a third of the vote, they might have been able to block it.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They only got 2/3rds of the seats not the vote. This majority is the result of the Grüne not getting the required 4% to get in, added together they have ~63% of the votes not 66%.

I'm not all doom and gloom because I hope they'll never be able to agree on something.

 

[Hisoka]

Yes.

No. I still refuse to believe that this is the reason. Xenophobia as a reason is as old and bad as the campaign of Die Grünen was.

 

[Westbahnhof]

No. I still refuse to believe that this is the reason. Xenophobia as a reason is as old and bad as the campaign of Die Grünen was.

Btw, could you please elaborate on the situation of the people getting less than 800€? Still wondering hoe that's possible.

 

[snail_maze]

Btw, could you please elaborate on the situation of the people getting less than 800€? Still wondering hoe that's possible.

I am not them and don't know 100% how how s/he meant it, but it is certainly possible. I googled and the average Mindestsicherung payout seems to have been 300€ in 2015. Mainly due to Teilzeit/Geringfügig work and couples/marriage. Not sure if that was what was meant though.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I am not them and don't know 100% how how s/he meant it, but it is certainly possible. I googled and the average Mindestsicherung payout seems to have been 300€ in 2015. Mainly due to Teilzeit/Geringfügig work and couples/marriage. Not sure if that was what was meant though.

mindestsicherung isn't a fixed sum but to add to existing income so you make ~800€ a month. The issue is claiming someone below the threshold not receiving it, which shouldn't happen unless there's circumstances that make you ineligible.

 

[snail_maze]

mindestsicherung isn't a fixed sum but to add to existing income so you make ~800€ a month. The issue is claiming someone below the threshold not receiving it, which shouldn't happen unless there's circumstances that make you ineligible.

Yeah, but for couples it still doesn't add up to 1.600 but sth around 1200.
I also see the strong arguement that its bullshit how someone working geringfügig/teilzeit ends up the same as if they didn't work at all, thats a bit different issue though

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah, but for couples it still doesn't add up to 1.600 but sth around 1200.
I also see the strong arguement that its bullshit how someone working geringfügig/teilzeit ends up the same as if they didn't work at all, thats a bit different issue though

well to quaify you have to be willing to work, someone that refuses adequate to his training jobs shouldn't keep being eligible.

Don't know exaclty why it's not seperate for couples, maybe to prevent double dipping into rent subsidies and pooled resources.

 

[snail_maze]

well to quaify you have to be willing to work, someone that refuses adequate to his training jobs shouldn't keep being eligible.

Don't know exaclty why it's not seperate for couples, maybe to prevent double dipping into rent subsidies and pooled resources.

Yeah the idea by couples is that some costs are shared and therefore dont need to be covered twice, people living together (siblings) also get cut down to around 600 a pop.
Being willing to work is good in theory, but I honestly dont know what happens if you dont. Like you can hardly be kicked into the streets. I know one of the largest criticism of many cities is that they simply don't check the requirements and simply pay out.

 

[Red Arremer]

"Willing to work" means that you have to go apply for jobs the AMS is giving you (and if you are being extremely obvious in sabotaging that application/interview, the company can report you to the AMS leading to your money getting blocked for a while), as well as attending courses.

Obviously you can't get punished if you simply aren't finding anything.

That said, with an FPÖVP government and the NEOS potentially playing along for constitutional changes, we're going to see Hartz IV getting introduced to Austria for sure.

Which means that "willing to work" is going to be "take 1€ jobs or get no money whatsoever". Also, of course, the amount of people who are abusing the system are insignificant.

 

[snail_maze]

"Willing to work" means that you have to go apply for jobs the AMS is giving you (and if you are being extremely obvious in sabotaging that application/interview, the company can report you to the AMS leading to your money getting blocked for a while), as well as attending courses.

Obviously you can't get punished if you simply aren't finding anything.

That said, with an FPÖVP government and the NEOS potentially playing along for constitutional changes, we're going to see Hartz IV getting introduced to Austria for sure.

Which means that "willing to work" is going to be "take 1€ jobs or get no money whatsoever".

I hope they just restrict themselves to actually checking Mindestsicherung and perhaps changing it from money to a voucher system. I hope they are sensible enough to avoid a wage destroying Hartz IV system
I hope

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I used to make fun of the american food stamps, I have hopes that even the worst of our politicians do not think so low of the poor as to imply they are only such because they spend their paltry income lavishly.

 

[Red Arremer]

I hope they just restrict themselves to actually checking Mindestsicherung and perhaps changing it from money to a voucher system. I hope they are sensible enough to avoid a wage destroying Hartz IV system
I hope

Well ÖVP already has put out feelers for it and there was a government-funded study for it, NEOS probably would be all for it, not sure I heard anything about it from the FPÖ though.

And yes, Hartz IV is insanely bad for both the economy and workers, but it makes profits in the short term and gives the rich even cheaper labour, so you can expect it to get pushed hard.

Also, they're likely going to merge Notstandshilfe with Mindestsicherung, so people who DID pay into the system but haven't gotten a job after using up their ALG will be suffering from the same fate as any person who gets Mindestsicherung.