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[Kabouter]

Germany being at the top is not surprising. What do the German's contribute? Probably the best cars in the world. Probably the best engineers in the world. So much influence in science and technology. They took full blame for WWII they never ceased to apologise. They re-integrated their shattered country. They rose from those ashes. They play a huge role in the heart of Europe.

Not to mention they're friendly (except once every two years or so), hard working and they buy tons of our stuff .

 

[tnw]

no, I think europeans have disliked the US longer than just the bush administration.

 

[Kabouter]

no, I think europeans have disliked the US longer than just the bush administration.

Except not really, I remember many teenagers hanging American flags on their walls in the 90's. During the Clinton years, America was viewed in a very positive light.

 

[Green Shinobi]

No, it just means that from the responses you're giving there's no point even trying to debate with you.

You're f'ing retarded.

Given that America is the largest charitable contributor in the world, one of the largest if not the largest importers, as well as the fact that America's military has been a stabilizing factor in world conflicts for the entire 20th century, how on earth can America's influence be primarily negative because of a single occupation of a third world country in the Middle East?

Hence what I said about the people in this poll failing to take history into perspective as well as lacking an attention span.

You couldn't win a debate with a wall hanging.

 

[Souldriver]

No, America is viewed the way it is because Europeans think it was such a huge travesty that we circumvented the U.N. to invade Iraq coupled with the fact that there were no W.M.D.'s found in that country.

And because it doesn't respect human rights, and because the world economy is going down the shitter, and because Bush singlehandedly disrupted the Middle-East, and because it wipes its ass with international conventions, and because the current government doesn't give a shit about nature or environment, and because they're already starting war talk against Iran while they're still with both feet in deep shit in 2 other countries, and because Europe was/is forced to take safety measures that go against it's own privacy laws, and ... because of a loooooooot of shit the past 8 years.

Most of the hate is deserved, some of it is just thrown on the pile of hate because it's the hot thing to do.

Also the fact that apparently much of the world has a super-short attention span and no perspective of history, which is ironic, since that's one of the things they accuse Americans of.

This poll asks what country currently has the best influence. Germany does well (unlike 60 years ago), USA does bad (unlike 60 years ago). And thank god history doesn't have to be always factored in, or Germany would be in the last place forever no matter what they do, and the US would get a free ticket to keep on fucking the world over.

(That doesn't change the fact however that Germany has the moral duty to apologize for the past events, or that Europe should be thankful that the US saved their asses.)

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

The problem with these lists are that the factors that weigh in on the responders' choices will be about everything about the countries on the list for whatever reasons before popping out a Yay or Nay vote. Legitimate? Biased? Out of their freaking minds? Who can tell?

Hell, looking at one of the lowest scorers, I myself like Iranians, but their government can go choke on a dick for what they do, how do I score that?

A part of China since 1950.

Less media coverage of it; out of sight and out of mind.

 

[Kabouter]

because Europe was/is forced to take safety measures that go against it's own privacy laws

Bullshit, Europe isn't forced to do anything. The EU is the largest economy in the world as a whole and can easily stand up to the US if it cares enough to do so as a whole. And in this case, it should. The ends in no way justify the means.

This poll asks what country currently has the best influence. Germany does well (unlike 60 years ago), USA does bad (unlike 60 years ago). And thank god history doesn't have to be always factored in, or Germany would be in the last place forever no matter what they do, and the US would get a free ticket to keep on fucking the world over.

If you factor in history, no country is going to get a very positive rating. Well, maybe tiny isolationist nations like Bhutan. But aside from those? The colonial era certainly would've ended any European hopes of getting a remotely positive judgment.

 

[Souldriver]

The problem with these lists are that the factors that weigh in on the responders' choices will be about everything about the countries on the list for whatever reasons before popping out a Yay or Nay vote. Legitimate? Biased? Out of their freaking minds? Who can tell?

Hell, looking at one of the lowest scorers, I myself like Iranians, but their government can go choke on a dick for what they do, how do I score that?

Well, a single Iranian person can't have a good or bad influence in the world, so I'm pretty sure this poll is more about the nations' governments. They're the ones representing their country in the world.


I do agree though that this poll is not specific enough (what population? what does the question mean? ...), like most polls.

 

[Onemic]

You're f'ing retarded.

Given that America is the largest charitable contributor in the world, one of the largest if not the largest importers, as well as the fact that America's military has been a stabilizing factor in world conflicts for this entire century, how on earth can America's influence be primarily negative because of a single occupation of a third world country in the Middle East?

Hence what I said about the people in this poll failing to take history into perspective as well as lacking an attention span.

You couldn't win a debate with a wall hanging.

You're VERY ignorant you know that?

Like I said there's no point arguing with you.

 

[Kola]

I agree with the user above that we still need to integrate Dutch drug laws! :lol

 

[Green Shinobi]

And because it doesn't respect human rights

You're talking about a prison that holds 335 people who are strongly suspected of holding ties to terrorist organizations. And waterboarding has only been used a handful of times.

because the world economy is going down the shitter

Good point, but a lot of that (a huge percentage, really), was due to the credit crisis that really didn't have anything to do with our foreign policy, or any government policy, for the most part.

and because Bush singlehandedly disrupted the Middle-East

:lol :lol :lol

You can't be serious about that one. The Middle East has been a shithole for decades.

and because it wipes its ass with international conventions

Let's see your country's reaction if it were to suffer the largest terrorist attack in history.

and because the current government doesn't give a shit about nature or environment

We're a lot better in that regard than China, who burns millions of tons of coal and can't even be bothered to install scrubbers in the smokestacks of many of their factories. And don't get me started on the South American countries who are devastating their rainforests for farmland that goes fallow within a decade. America is far, far from the worst country in this regard.

and because they're already starting war talk against Iran while they're still with both feet in deep shit in 2 other countries

That will never happen.

and because Europe was/is forced to take safety measures that go against it's own privacy laws

This one I wasn't aware of. Could you explain?

Most of the hate is deserved, some of it is just thrown on the pile of hate because it's the hot thing to do.

Too much of it is thrown on because it's the hot thing to do. America still does a lot of good for the world.

You're VERY ignorant you know that?

Like I said there's no point arguing with you.

That's a big accusation to throw around. Have you ever made a meaningful post in your life?

 

[Kabouter]

You can't be serious about that one. The Middle East has been a shithole for decades.

Decades huh? Quite a few decades....

 

[tnw]

Except not really, I remember many teenagers hanging American flags on their walls in the 90's. During the Clinton years, America was viewed in a very positive light.

I don't know, a lot of eastern europeans I met in college during the 90's would always be really condescending to me and only be friends with other Europeans.

And when NATO attacked Serbia, god, they wouldn't even say hi to me in the halls :.(

 

[Souldriver]

Bullshit, Europe isn't forced to do anything. The EU is the largest economy in the world as a whole and can easily stand up to the US if it cares enough to do so as a whole. And in this case, it should. The ends in no way justify the means.

Well, true, the EU could've just said no to the demands from the US government concerning commercial flights, but that would effectively ended all traffic between the EU and the USA. The European (and American) economy would take a major hit, so from a diplomatic point of view the EU was forced to give in, or it would end in a economic could war between the US and EU. Also, the US was in a stronger position during the negotiations than the EU.
And even if they weren't "forced" in the literal sense of the word, it doesn't change the fact that it's a valid reason for Europeans to have a negative view on the US government, which was what I tried to point out.

If you factor in history, no country is going to get a very positive rating. Well, maybe tiny isolationist nations like Bhutan. But aside from those? The colonial era certainly would've ended any European hopes of getting a remotely positive judgment.

Exactly. You shouldn't forget history (for obvious reasons), but you shouldn't base your opinion about the current population, society or government from a country on events that lie in the past and are part of a chapter that has definitely ended.

 

[Kabouter]

I don't know, a lot of eastern europeans I met in college during the 90's would always be really condescending to me and only be friends with other Europeans.

And when NATO attacked Serbia, god, they wouldn't even say hi to me in the halls :.(

I think you'll find there's quite a large difference between Eastern-Europe and Western-Europe . Western-Europe was decidedly pro-American during the Clinton years.

Well, true, the EU could've just said no to the demands from the US government concerning commercial flights, but that would effectively ended all traffic between the EU and the USA.

Of course it wouldn't have, do you really think the USA would have gone through with it had they met any resistance from the EU? The US can't afford such hits to their economy and would have backed down entirely or at least demanded less.

 

[Green Shinobi]

Exactly. You shouldn't forget history (for obvious reasons), but you shouldn't base your opinion about the current population, society or government from a country on events that lie in the past and are part of a chapter that has definitely ended.

But in this case, I'm talking about eight years counteracting pretty much the entire 20th century.

It just seems like a pretty big overreaction.

Edit: and you can't forget that the catalyst for all this crap was 9/11, the largest terrorist attack in history.

 

[tnw]

I think you'll find there's quite a large difference between Eastern-Europe and Western-Europe . Western-Europe was decidedly pro-American during the Clinton years.

hi 2 u kabouter! ^_^

 

[Schnicktick]

the Swabians and Saxons are assholes --> Rhineland ftw!!

Fuck you!

 

[Souldriver]

bunch stuff

First of: I explicitely said some of the reasons given are not necessarily valid. For example, I personally wouldn't put the economic recession on that list. But lets look at some of the factors causing the crisis:
- The war in Iraq pushing the US in a big deficit.
- The US financial sector in America is far less regulated than f.e. the ones in the EU or Japan. They can fuck up all they can (doing business that even the smallest child can see isn't going to end well), and when it blows up in their face, the government/tax payer intervenes, putting the burden away from the banks, and effectively giving them no incentive to use some common sense in the future. (There's a word for this phenomena, but I can't think of it now)
- The troubles in the Middle East pushing the oil prices to record prices.

Those are all things where the US government could've done something to lessen/prevent the crisis. Sure, the government is not some kind of miracle machine that can do everything right if it wants to (every government makes mistakes), but the current US one has a pretty bad track record.
Which brings me again to topic of this thread: the reasons why America isn't viewed as a good influence in the world.

 

[GavinGT]

Uh, uh. Superior race am confirmed?

 

[Frankfurter]

no, I think europeans have disliked the US longer than just the bush administration.

Seriously, this just isn't the case. The Bush administration definitely hurt the US reputation by a lot and in a pretty universal way. It apparently doesn't matter if you are a 60 year old that still remembers stories from his parents about the Berlin Airlift or a 25 year old student - the Bush administration sucks, sucks, sucks. Some of the hate is deserved, but there is of course also lots of exaggerations, nobody wants to join the losing team.

You're talking about a prison that holds 335 people who are strongly suspected of holding ties to terrorist organizations. And waterboarding has only been used a handful of times.

So a person that is suspected to be a terrorist shouldn't be granted certain human rights? Take a look at the Univeral Declaration of Human Rights or... well the US constitution.

We're a lot better in that regard than China, who burns millions of tons of coal and can't even be bothered to install scrubbers in the smokestacks of many of their factories. And don't get me started on the South American countries who are devastating their rainforests for farmland that goes fallow within a decade. America is far, far from the worst country in this regard.

I dunno if it's wise to compare the US to China in that way (first vs. second/third world country). Sure the US is better in that regard than China, the opposite would be pretty ridiculous, considering that China is horrible.

- The US financial sector in America is far less regulated than f.e. the ones in the EU or Japan. They can fuck up all they can (doing business that even the smallest child can see isn't going to end well), and when it blows up in their face, the government/tax payer intervenes, putting the burden away from the banks, and effectively giving them no incentive to use some common sense in the future. (There's a word for this phenomena, but I can't think of it now)

That hasn't helped UBS and quite a few others, though There really are quite a few huge banks in Europa that were heavily invested in these subprime things and lost billions. And ironically enough a few more or less public owned German banks lost much, much more money than private ones (WestLB, SachsenLB/SaxonyLB and a few others).

 

[Souldriver]

Of course it wouldn't have, do you really think the USA would have gone through with it had they met any resistance from the EU? The US can't afford such hits to their economy and would have backed down entirely or at least demanded less.

The US would've gone through with its plans. It's part of their anti-terrorism plans, and that has been their number one priority since 2001. The EU was in a lose-lose situation: if they didn't agree to give the US all information, the economy would take a hit and it would put all European flight organisations in fault, because they did give all the information. If the EU did agree to give all information, then that would've meant going against her own regulations, and result in a punishment from the European Court of Justice.

The EU was standing with its back against the wall. If it said no to the demands of the US, the US would've simply started negotiations with all Member States individually. Holland vs US, now who would suffer the biggest economic hit if all air traffic between the two stopped? So in the end all individual states would quietly done what the US asked.

So it wasn't a fair fight at all, and more than just some bluff poker.

 

[Onemic]

That's a big accusation to throw around. Have you ever made a meaningful post in your life?

I like to think I do....Honestly I would actually happily debate with you but I'm WTF tired at the moment.

 

[Souldriver]

One thing is for sure: Godwin's Law increases by a factor of 10 when the topic of discussion concerns Germany in any way, shape, or form.

It usually takes no more than 5 posts before some smart guy posts an Adolf pic, thinking it's omghilarious.

 

[Kabouter]

The US would've gone through with its plans. It's part of their anti-terrorism plans, and that has been their number one priority since 2001. The EU was in a lose-lose situation: if they didn't agree to give the US all information, the economy would take a hit and it would put all European flight organisations in fault, because they did give all the information. If the EU did agree to give all information, then that would've meant going against her own regulations, and result in a punishment from the European Court of Justice.

The EU was standing with its back against the wall. If it said no to the demands of the US, the US would've simply started negotiations with all Member States individually. Holland vs US, now who would suffer the biggest economic hit if all air traffic between the two stopped? So in the end all individual states would quietly done what the US asked.

So it wasn't a fair fight at all, and more than just some bluff poker.

I really don't know where the perception comes from that the US foreign and anti-terrorism policies are set in stone. The US is open to debate on these things, of course it's going to come in and demand heavy security measures. But should the EU state it wouldn't comply, there is absolutely no way the US would see this as a good enough reason to take a hit to it's economy by blocking air traffic. And aside from the economic hit, the public backlash against the administration would be gigantic. The US would try to negotiate a compromise that would be satisfactory to both sides.

 

[Fritz]

Doesn't surprise me. I've been living in different countries abroad now for quite a while. And it's been always the german guys that integrated well, made heaps of friends etc.. Contrary to our own perception we are fairly decent, open-minded and funny people.
It also helps that we are in fact diligent, clean and super-efficient.

 

[Souldriver]

I really don't know where the perception comes from that the US foreign and anti-terrorism policies are set in stone. The US is open to debate on these things, of course it's going to come in and demand heavy security measures. But should the EU state it wouldn't comply, there is absolutely no way the US would see this as a good enough reason to take a hit to it's economy by blocking air traffic. And aside from the economic hit, the public backlash against the administration would be gigantic. The US would try to negotiate a compromise that would be satisfactory to both sides.

Well, I don't think we'll agree on this . It all comes down to our perceptions of the situation.


But it's a given fact that the EU had far worse cards than the US during the negotiations. So if both kept a stiff upper lip, eventually the EU would be the first to come back from it's earlier decission and give in.

 

[Kabouter]

Well, I don't think we'll agree on this . It all comes down to our perceptions of the situation.


But it's a given fact that the EU had far worse cards than the US during the negotiations. So if both kept a stiff upper lip, eventually the EU would be the first to come back to it's earlier decission and give in.

Explain to me WHY exactly the EU had worse cards?
Because, from my point of view in that situation, it's the US that wanted something from the EU. And the US could do nothing to the EU that wouldn't have hurt itself. And sure, the US could have started negotiating with member states itself, but a united EU could have easily held that off too. It's simply another example of a spineless EU that refuses to say and do what's necessary to protect it's citizens.

 

[Ripclawe]

North Korea higher than Israel? Where was this poll taken.. Gaza?

 

[Evlar]

It's the beer.

 

[Souldriver]

Explain to me WHY exactly the EU had worse cards?
Because, from my point of view in that situation, it's the US that wanted something from the EU. And the US could do nothing to the EU that wouldn't have hurt itself. And sure, the US could have started negotiating with member states itself, but a united EU could have easily held that off too. It's simply another example of a spineless EU that refuses to say and do what's necessary to protect it's citizens.

Well, I explained before that there were legal, political en economic issues involved. You have to look at the political reality where the EU simply was not one cohesive united block against the US. It still isn't today.

 

[Kabouter]

Well, I explained before that there were legal, political en economic issues involved. You have to look at the political reality where the EU simply was not one cohesive united block against the US. It still isn't today.

Which is exactly what I criticized in the first place. It's not an inherent inability to stand up to the US, it's an unwillingness to cooperate to achieve goals which are in fact shared.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

Decades huh? Quite a few decades....

The Ottomans had the entire region locked down until 1914.

 

[Souldriver]

Which is exactly what I criticized in the first place. It's not an inherent inability to stand up to the US, it's an unwillingness to cooperate to achieve goals which are in fact shared.

True, but it wasn't the European Council participating in the negotiations, it was the European Commission. They could've said anything they wanted to impress the US, it was pretty well known that some members states were pressuring the European Commission to give in to the demands, which undermined the EU's negotiating position (even though the Commission doesn't have to listen to the member states).

 

[Green Shinobi]

Yeah, the Bush Administration has really fucked up. That asshole should have been put out of office in 2004, but the Democrats choked. It just makes me really sad to see our country so low in these rankings, especially when we used to be one of the most well-liked countries in the world.

 

[Ripclawe]

Yeah, the Bush Administration has really fucked up. That asshole should have been put out of office in 2004, but the Democrats choked. It just makes me really sad to see our country so low in these rankings, especially when we used to be one of the most well-liked countries in the world.

meh, for America to be well liked in the world, it would have to be the kindly lapdog that doles out grants and be pushed around. No thanks.

 

[GenericPseudonym]

meh, for America to be well liked in the world, it would have to be the kindly lapdog that doles out grants and be pushed around. No thanks.

Well it would have to do that to be liked, but it would just need to stop meddling in other people's business to be less hated.

 

[Souldriver]

meh, for America to be well liked in the world, it would have to be the kindly lapdog that doles out grants and be pushed around. No thanks.

That's just not true. You'd be surprised how quickly things can/could turn around.

 

[cvxfreak]

Japan is tied for first!

Actually it's not because it has a higher negative rating than Japan.

 

[Guileless]

I think Germany and Japan's placement at the top is a result of each having explicitly pacifist constitutions, which were of course dictated by the US, and which continues to guarantee their security and enable them to be pacifist. It is a miracle how far they have come since 1945. I don't know what most people foresaw back then, but this has to be beyond their best case scenario (except for the partition and suffering of East Germans for 40 years).

I am continually amazed at how everybody forgets about the Balkan crises of the 90s. A lot of Europeans and others were incensed by the NATO military actions. There were riots in China after their embassy was bombed. Pres. Clinton had to leave Greece because of anti-American riots. I guess the diplomatic incompetence of the Bush Administration overshadows everything.

 

[Kabouter]

A lot of Europeans and others were incensed by the NATO military actions.

And many others were tired of Serbs starting shit AGAIN.

 

[MalevolentPanda]

the fact that America's military has been a stabilizing factor in world conflicts for this entire century,

Similtaneously hilarious and terrifying that anyone could believe this to be true.

 

[lastendconductor]

China is surprising.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

No, America is viewed the way it is because Europeans think it was such a huge travesty that we circumvented the U.N. to invade Iraq coupled with the fact that there were no W.M.D.'s found in that country.

Germany thought Iraq had WMDs too.

 

[Knastluder]

Germany thought Iraq had WMDs too.

Yes,Germany is one single person confirmed...




"Hey Germany what about the Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?"

"Halt's maul und wo ist überhaupt mein Bier ?"

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Fine. German intelligence and Friedbert Pflueger were saying it. Happy now?

 

[Knastluder]

Yes .

 

[Green Shinobi]

Similtaneously hilarious and terrifying that anyone could believe this to be true.

Fuck off, Panda. You know damn well that I meant "last century."

I think Germany and Japan's placement at the top is a result of each having explicitly pacifist constitutions, which were of course dictated by the US, and which continues to guarantee their security and enable them to be pacifist. It is a miracle how far they have come since 1945. I don't know what most people foresaw back then, but this has to be beyond their best case scenario (except for the partition and suffering of East Germans for 40 years).

Thing is, dude, look at our current situation with that camel-fucker in Iraq. Pacifism is not something to hide behind.

 

[Instigator]

Germany thought Iraq had WMDs too.

Not exactly. At best, they were stupid and dishonest, much like their American counterparts.

Link to detailed article from German media:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,542840,00.html

 

[Green Shinobi]

Not exactly. At best, they were stupid and dishonest, much like their American counterparts.

Link to detailed article from German media:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,542840,00.html

God, that article is so depressing. Remembering Colin Powell's presentation to the U.N. makes me want to off somebody, maybe even myself. =(

Edit: I have to say though, if WMD's had been found in Iraq (big if, I know), America's score on polls like this would be much, much higher.