Dark_AnNiaLatOr
Member
Maybe it will stop once he wins IA and NH.
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Bernie can win in 2016
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D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
This suppose that Clinton is somehow *less* of a risk - but she's consistently shown both that a) she does worse in the GE matchups, and b) she's not very good at handling the long-term smear campaigns. Managing to fend her way through the softball that was Benghazi can't hide a 30 point drop in net approval over a year. That's literally having 2.5% of the American population think you're doing worse *every month*.
Sanders is less risk to Democratic prospects than Clinton.
This. It just isn't his time.
Bernie knows this as well, he's a very smart guy. His run is more about holding Clinton's feet to the fire, and influencing policy than anything.
If we want a Bernie president, you need to build up a well of Bernies at the state level and in Congress, so policy can actually change. Presidents don't rule by decree after all.
This is true I feel. And if DWS wasn't leading the DNC, there would have been a fighting chance for Sanders to win the nomination.
JordanN
Banned
Man, could you imagine a Sanders' presidency from 2016 to 2024?
He could continue the Obama legacy of not invading and occupying any Middle Eastern countries, giving women and minorities more rights, fix the wage gap between rich and poor, free healthcare, finally pass gun control Obama has been fighting tooth and nail for, etc.
It's a shame this has to be considered a "risk".
And Bernie =! establishment support. And unlike Hillary (stared down Benghazi panel and won after endless hours of questioning), no capacity demonstrated to take heat. Withers like a flower. The end result is he is not getting nominated.
I'm sorry but it's not happening for someone who additionally has no chance of getting his ideals passed through congress. Not worth it for a conversation.
dehydratedbabies
Member
Yeah, the movement (and that is an appropriate term here) that he's generated isn't going to disappear, even if he loses. He's empowered/emboldened a lot of people. The majority of them won't be organizers, and yes a lot of them will lose interest, but I'm very optimistic about the long-term future of progressive politics in the US.
And Bernie =! establishment support. And unlike Hillary (stared down Benghazi panel and won after endless hours of questioning), no capacity demonstrated to take heat. Withers like a flower. The end result is he is not getting nominated.
I'm sorry but it's not happening for someone who additionally has no chance of getting his ideals passed through congress. Not worth it for a conversation.
He's talking about the general election, not the primaries.
Gun Animal
Member
what's your point? Bernie would do better in the GE than Hillary, Hillary is liked by hardline party democrats and literally nobody else.
And Bernie =! establishment support. And unlike Hillary (stared down Benghazi panel and won after endless hours of questioning), no capacity demonstrated to take heat. Withers like a flower. The end result is he is not getting nominated.
I'm sorry but it's not happening for someone who additionally has no chance of getting his ideals passed through congress. Not worth it for a conversation.
Next time I meet Bernie Im gonna tell him he's just have to let it go, give up. It's for the best. He can't win anyway, so what's the point?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
That's Clinton against Sanders, which is totally different. I'm not arguing Sanders will beat Clinton (I think it is unlikely he will). I'm arguing if he did, he would do much better in the general election.
Secondly, citing Benghazi as evidence that Clinton handles flak well is laughable. One single event doesn't hide the fact that 2.5% of Americans think less of her every single month, before we've even entered a general election campaign. If her current favourability trend rate continues, she'll be less popular than Romney was by May.
Romney.
Sanders might not get a lot of his ideas passed through Congress. nevertheless, given he will do better downticket than Clinton, he will get, relatively, more Democratic ideas through Congress than Clinton did. This is also totally ignoring all of the aspects that the president does exert more or less direct control over, like foreign policy. You ever seen an academic review of Clinton's performance as secretary of state? They're not particularly complimentary.
oneils
Member
Hilary can't take heat? Were you born after 2000 or something? She handled herself pretty well during her husbands administration. There is also her testimony in front of various committees re: Benghazi and emails. It all kinda shows that she performs well under pressure. Sure we can criticize her politics but I'm not sure we can criticize her ability to perform under pressure.
You spout this off like it's hard fact.
Well, let me give you my opinion. Bernie might be a harder sell for the independents and undecided voters than Hilary, especially with the Republican attack machine in full swing warping public perception of him and what he stands for. This may not be enough to drive them into the arms of Trump, but it might be enough for them to say fuck it and not participate in the election at all. When all is said and done, I still think Hilary is a safer horse to bet on and I don't think I'm alone.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't mean in a pressure situation, I mean the long grind of attacks and knowing how to position yourself against them. We have a lot of evidence to suggest she's not good at that - again, just look at those favorability ratings. It's genuinely both impressive and alarming how much damage she's allowed to be done to her image over the year.
Wat
I'm more afraid that a Sanders presidency might sour the general population on his ideals when nothing gets done because of the blockade in congress.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
He's not wrong. Clinton's favourable ratings among Republicans and Independents are appalling; Sanders' are actually quite good. Sanders' net favourables by Quinnipac are +8, Clinton's are -9 - that's a double-digit difference.
Prodigal Son
Member
If we had more time? Maybe. As we stand? No. The youth vote would have to really count but the average twenty-something in the US couldn't give two shits about voting.
I'll vote for him but Clinton will, almost undoubtedly get the dem nomination.
I'll vote for him but Clinton will, almost undoubtedly get the dem nomination.
gutter_trash
Banned
Bernie's problem isn't his ideology, policy or convictions. All of those that he has are admirable and honest
Bernie's problem is that he isn't a Democrat and has made a career as an inpendent Congressman and indepdant Senator against Democrats and has been very critical of the Democrat party and lambasted them many times
now he is running for President using the vehicle of the Democratic Primary although he is an Independent.
Now you can see why the Democrat Establishment are not going to allow him to win the nomination.
Bernie's problem is that he isn't a Democrat and has made a career as an inpendent Congressman and indepdant Senator against Democrats and has been very critical of the Democrat party and lambasted them many times
now he is running for President using the vehicle of the Democratic Primary although he is an Independent.
Now you can see why the Democrat Establishment are not going to allow him to win the nomination.
Every debate he sounds very angry and shouts a lot into the mic. Trump would demolish him.
Spider from Mars
tap that thorax
Bernie will be out of this race on March 2nd
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Clinton also has an incalculably better campaign infrastructure and much higher awareness and favorability amongst women and minorities, key constituents for Democrats to win.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Yep. Best let it go sooner rather than later. Confidence and strength tend to carry elections.
SporeCrawler
Member
the problem with sanders is that he is advocating ideas that will not be liked by corporate america.
and what happens if corporate america doesnt like something? well then it must be communism.
if sanders gets to be the candidate trump will roll over him with the communist argument. that alone will probably win trump the election
and what happens if corporate america doesnt like something? well then it must be communism.
if sanders gets to be the candidate trump will roll over him with the communist argument. that alone will probably win trump the election
Of course he can win in fact he would decimate Trump or Cruz in a GE, especially with Warren as his running mate. His main challenge is winning the democratic nomination. Main problem for him are people over 45 who especially within the democratic party - seem to be very happy with a Clinton nom.
ErasureAcer
Banned
This country is fucked if Bernie is not President. Your decision.
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
Also, trumpeting Bernie's favorability rating when the GOP has barely paid any attention or diverted any of their energy to attacking him is pretty misleading. Hillary's favorables have slid, but they rose after the Venghazi hearing, a.k.a. when she was in the spotlight.
Rebel Leader
THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
It depends OP.
Soulscribe
Member
Anyone can win if you vote for them.
That said, the DNC is so committed at this point to Hillary because they know exactly what they're getting with her and are much more confident in her name/platform's ability to move votes. I believe she has a better chance against a generic Republican than Bernie has, and especially against someone like Trump or Cruz. Polls are misleading now coz it's not a two-man race yet.
Bernie Sanders shares 99% of the same platform as Hillary Clinton and I hope his supporters realize that. The more I see heated Bernie fans on Facebook decrying Hillary almost as passionately as Trump tells me they very likely could sit out the general if he loses. Which, of course, would be doing themselves and their candidate a disservice.
That said, the DNC is so committed at this point to Hillary because they know exactly what they're getting with her and are much more confident in her name/platform's ability to move votes. I believe she has a better chance against a generic Republican than Bernie has, and especially against someone like Trump or Cruz. Polls are misleading now coz it's not a two-man race yet.
Bernie Sanders shares 99% of the same platform as Hillary Clinton and I hope his supporters realize that. The more I see heated Bernie fans on Facebook decrying Hillary almost as passionately as Trump tells me they very likely could sit out the general if he loses. Which, of course, would be doing themselves and their candidate a disservice.
Yup.
The primaries are the "pre-elections" to put someone on the ticket for each party. Vote Bernie in the primaries. Then vote Dem in the general elections.
SquashMatch
Member
As a republican I pray to God that Bernie gets the nomination, he is too weak to defend his own stage against a protester, he would get destroyed in the debates.
That being said if my party elects Trump (which I am still convinced they will not) I may have to vote for Bernie.
That being said if my party elects Trump (which I am still convinced they will not) I may have to vote for Bernie.
teruterubozu
Member
lol. Now that's conservatism.
Orbis Tabula
Member
He can. It's just less likely. I'm a big fan, though.
ErasureAcer
Banned
Bernie supporters know that the game is rigged. Hillary will keep the rigged game going. Saying they agree on 99% of the issues is a falacy unless you're including such things as that the grass is green and the sky is blue.
Hillary might not even win the general if she makes it that far. She has no crossover appeal. Meanwhile Bernie is the most approved-of US Senator in the country. I'd say a majority of awakened individuals will not vote for Hillary. They won't vote or will vote 3rd party. She quite frankly is not a leader. She is an opportunist, an out-of-touch one at that.
Unfortunately this is the road that might lead directly to trump as people underestimate how unlike able Hillary is
Dangansona
Member
There's a good deal of support from us Charlestonians.
.. Not like that will matter T_T
Aaronology
Member
It's extremely misleading. Where would Bernie be, in the current American climate, after months of anti-socialism attack ads for a guy who is a self professed, unapologetic socialist? I do not think he'd fair better than Clinton vs the GOP's media campaign, at all.
I'd actually like to go to an alternate universe where Bernie is nominated to see how his numbers change once he's actually being attacked by Republicans. Because you guys seriously seem to think the words "trillions of dollars in spending" and "raising taxes on the middle class" don't mean anything in American electoral politics.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I mean, sure, something bad could happen to Hillary that knocks her out of the race. That's always a possibility. That's basically what "Bernie can win" registers as to me.
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