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[DatDude]

I really love how they handled Comstock in this game.

You kept hearing about how he was this loving prophet who cared for the people of Columbia but as the player you always felt like he was the enemy.
Throughout the entire game you only heard is voice through loud speakers or voxophones and it was always hoarse and grainy...
Then when you meet him in person, it is so shocking how calm his voice is and how friendly he seems.
I actually felt bad after I killed him, and started to think that maybe I was really the bad guy.
...Until I remembered he was a racist, old man who had many people killed to cover up what he did.

But the fact that I felt bad after killing the antagonist was a pretty cool thing.

An yet you play, as Booker, who was a racist, and who killed innocent men, women, and children at Wounded Knee.

You really are play as the antoganist as some sense.

At least with Comstock, he only dwelled into racism because religion deemed it necessary and okay.

 

[RadarScope1]

Wouldn't mind having Daisy as a A.I partner and flesh out more of that Vox Populi time line bit.

That would be awesome, and would definitely assuage some of the criticism about Fitzroy being an underdeveloped character.

 

[Roto13]

Comstock was charming, as those crazy cult leaders often are. You don't get a bunch of followers who would die for you by being hated.

 

[Snowblindvictim]

Regarding Comstock house, did Booker go through a tear?
What caused him to make that huge jump while crossing the bridge? (to 1984?)
I'm assuming he would have had to gone through a tear, but who left it open for him?

 

[Red]

Regarding Comstock house, did Booker go through a tear?
What caused him to make that huge jump while crossing the bridge? (to 1984?)
I'm assuming he would have had to gone through a tear, but who left it open for him?

Old Liz.

 

[Snowblindvictim]

Old Liz.

Okay. I figured as much, was it also implied that she was the archangel that appeared to Comstock? Or was that just me?

 

[Trigger]

Okay. I figured as much, was it also implied that she was the archangel that appeared to Comstock? Or was that just me?

I don't think anything directly implies it in game, but that's my gut instinct too for some reason. lol, I can't really defend that with in-game stuff.

 

[keith!]

Hey guys, loved reading through the OP, but there's one question I have that I couldn't find an answer to (perhaps it's there and I just missed it though).

In the final scene, the main Elizabeth doesn't disappear before the scene cuts to black. My friend and I have been arguing about this as I said it's implied she will disappear, but he's saying it's supposed to be left open ended and that she may not disappear. Has this been discussed yet in the thread?

 

[Trigger]

Hey guys, loved reading through the OP, but there's one question I have that I couldn't find an answer to (perhaps it's there and I just missed it though).

In the final scene, the main Elizabeth doesn't disappear before the scene cuts to black. My friend and I have been arguing about this as I said it's implied she will disappear, but he's saying it's supposed to be left open ended and that she may not disappear. Has this been discussed yet in the thread?

There's literally no reason why she'd be unaffected by the paradox. The timing of the scene fading to black is for dramatic effect. The ending of Inception is probably just too fresh for people who say it's open ended, lol.

 

[Salamando]

There's literally no reason why she'd be unaffected by the paradox. The timing of the scene fading to black is for dramatic effect. The ending of Inception is probably just too fresh for people who say it's open ended, lol.

The very last Liz isn't the Liz you spend the entire game running around with...she has neither the bird nor the cage locket. That's enough to raise some questions. If that Liz was created from a branch started by a different Booker's baptism, stopping player-character-Booker wouldn't cause her to cease to exist.

While the final musical note hitting after the fade to black indicates that the Liz did vanish, it's open-ended enough that they could justify a Liz's further existence.

 

[Red]

I took the sudden fade to black to mean that that universe had ended due to the paradox. It wasn't only Liz that disappeared, it was the whole timeline. Or time-branch, like cutting a branch off a tree.

 

[Trigger]

The very last Liz isn't the Liz you spend the entire game running around with...she has neither the bird nor the cage locket. That's enough to raise some questions. If that Liz was created from a branch started by a different Booker's baptism, stopping player-character-Booker wouldn't cause her to cease to exist.

While the final musical note hitting after the fade to black indicates that the Liz did vanish, it's open-ended enough that they could justify a Liz's further existence.

If that Liz was created from a branch started by a different Booker's baptism then I'm not sure why she's there in the first place.

It's not impossible, but very unlikely IMO.

 

[Salamando]

If that Liz was created from a branch started by a different Booker's baptism then I'm not sure why she's there in the first place.

It's not impossible, but very unlikely IMO.

Why she's there? With infinite universes, any explanation I can give happened to at least one other booker's baptism. Maybe there's a Liz who just likes drowning people...maybe there's an evil Liz trying to prevent all good Liz's from existing...maybe a Liz just got lost or can't see behind all doors that well.

Really though, I suspect the scene is setup such that "thinking a Liz still exists" is a valid thought that they could make cannon if they decide to make Liz based DLC. Not showing all liz's destroyed leaves that small window they need.

 

[etrain911]

I just finished Infinite for the first time. 1. Troy Baker and Courtnee Draper need to release a CD, their cover of "Will the Circle Go Unbroken?" is amazing. 2. I cannot wait to see where the DLC goes. I predict something involving Daisy Fitzroy, something involving an alternate universe, and maybe something from Booker's transition to Comstock.

 

[Tawpgun]

Wow. So on the gondola ride to Emporia, there's a viginette with male lutece painting female lutece.

If you look closely at the painting, he's actually painting himself. This game has such great hints a second time around. 1999 mode is a blast.

 

[Trigger]

Wow. So on the gondola ride to Emporia, there's a viginette with male lutece painting female lutece.

If you look closely at the painting, he's actually painting himself. This game has such great hints a second time around. 1999 mode is a blast.

I initially thought this was a gag, but the later voxophones make the whole thing so much more interesting.

 

[Roto13]

Wow. So on the gondola ride to Emporia, there's a viginette with male lutece painting female lutece.

If you look closely at the painting, he's actually painting himself. This game has such great hints a second time around. 1999 mode is a blast.

Someone should take a screenshot of this.

 

[The Librarian]

"The only difference between Comstock and Fitzroy is how you spell the name."

Ha. Does anyone know, in the Vox Martyr universe, why anyone isn't surprised to see Booker alive? Seems like a major oversight.

 

[Snowblindvictim]

"The only difference between Comstock and Fitzroy is how you spell the name."

Ha. Does anyone know, in the Vox Martyr universe, why anyone isn't surprised to see Booker alive? Seems like a major oversight.

You run into a soldier who is surprised to see you almost immediately after you get back to Shanty town

 

[The Librarian]

You run into a soldier who is surprised to see you almost immediately after you get back to Shanty town

No. Not surprised, more like relief, and it only happens one time.

 

[Cagey]

repost from the non-spoiler thread, tags omitted.

Welp, I beat it. Meh.

I knew I would hate the gameplay going in, but I was willing to accept that. I don't like FPS, and I disliked Bioshock's gameplay immensely because I found it clumsy. The atmosphere and detail-laden world of Bioshock, though, was so enthralling and the time I spent exploring every nook-and-cranny made the combat setpieces worth playing through. I skipped #2 as I didn't want to return to the same setting. I figured I would have the same experience with Bioshock Infinite, so I was generally excited.

I initially fell in love with the game at the raffle scene when the phrase "prettiest white girl" was uttered, which I had thought couldn't be accidental, and then lo and behold the interracial couple was unveiled. I was utterly shocked, and reflexively recoiled and said "what the FUCK?!". From there, I was excited by the prospect of playing in a dystopian hellhole version of what 1900s white America considered to be a societal paradise, as American race relations has been an academic interest of mine for years now (studies, worked on a race law journal, classes, etc.).

Eventually the gameplay caught up and the gunfights became too frequent, which made playing a bit of a chore. But I moved onward, still enraptured by places, like the Fink MFG Shantytown and the appalling but wonderful in its attention-to-detail Lion/Ox PSA.

But by the end third of the game, the narrative went off the rails and I lost all interest in what was taking place. It started with the introduction of the rifts to save Chen Lin, and only got worse from there. By the time I was at the cemetery, I had lost all interest in what happened to Elizabeth or Booker, and was just waiting for the game to either reverse course or draw to a hasty conclusion. The ending sequence couldn't end fast enough for me. Why toss away this beautiful, profound game with an engaging, interactive examination of some America's darkest pages in its history for yet another story about fate and agency and control and a damsel in distress?

If the game had played fully on the world it had created and interacted more with the time period it was set in, I would have loved it. As it stands, well, it was gorgeous to look at and I loved the first 1/2 of the game? Meh.

EDIT: one detail I loved was the Vox Patriot being Abraham Lincoln, just a marvelous touch

 

[Thagomizer]

An yet you play, as Booker, who was a racist, and who killed innocent men, women, and children at Wounded Knee.

You really are play as the antoganist as some sense.

At least with Comstock, he only dwelled into racism because religion deemed it necessary and okay.

I feel that this is really quite a brilliantly done bit of characterization.

Comstock is washed of his sins in the Baptism, but he never truly repents. All it is is removing his guilt so that he can use the events of Wounded Knee to his advantage. As Comstock, he doesn't care about why those actions are horrible- once their no longer on his conscious, hey presto I can work with this!

Booker, who rejects the Baptism, is still tormented by what he's done and the evil he's committed. Eventually, he really does atone for his sins. Even though he didn't take the Baptism, Booker understood the spirit of the ritual, while for Comstock, it was just a convenience; instead of absolving his conscious, it abolishes it. He was never really Baptized at all, where Booker was repenting the entire time.

 

[thecouncil]

Someone should take a screenshot of this.

heres video.

 

[RadarScope1]

Wow. So on the gondola ride to Emporia, there's a viginette with male lutece painting female lutece.

If you look closely at the painting, he's actually painting himself. This game has such great hints a second time around. 1999 mode is a blast.

Awesome. Can't wait to go through a second time.

 

[Roto13]

heres video.

I love it. That's such a great touch.

 

[Out of Working Order]

I feel bad because after finishing, I needed to have the plot spelled out to me to understand what had gone on.

I wasn't too good at connecting the dots, despite taking the time to soak in the world and recorded messages. I could've tried a second playthrough, but after a month of play I just wanted to read everyone's thoughts now.

Like some here, I thoroughly enjoyed the wonderfully crafted world, story and characters, but found shooting at waves of attackers became tiresome very quickly.

I'll be thinking about this game for a while. Certainly one to remember.

 

[bodyofanamerican]

http://irrationalgames.com/insider/songbird-plushie-available-for-pre-order/

Songbird plushie coming in September. 55 bucks is a little rich for my blood though.

 

[The Broken Ska Record]

I just finished this and, man, was it a wild ride. I was able to follow the timelines, but this thread helped fill in some holes. Like the Lucetes. Can't wait for the DLC.

 

[Reclaimer]

What a game! One of my favorites this gen, maybe ever. So glad I went for the PC version... Maxed out, the art goes from great to mind-blowing.

But it brings to light my great shame of only getting 50-75% through the original Bioshock and then stopping. (The low frame rate and FOV on 360 was actually making me a bit motion sick...)

I NEED more 'shock! Where can I get the original on PC for cheap?

 

[Red]

What a game! One of my favorites this gen, maybe ever. So glad I went for the PC version... Maxed out, the art goes from great to mind-blowing.

But it brings to light my great shame of only getting 50-75% through the original Bioshock and then stopping. (The low frame rate and FOV on 360 was actually making me a bit motion sick...)

I NEED more 'shock! Where can I get the original on PC for cheap?

If you preordered Infinite on Steam, Bioshock came bundled with it. If not, just wait... It regularly goes on sale for $5.

 

[Tawpgun]

I was gonna check back here for tips for 1999 mode... but I beat it without using return to sender once. I think I only use lightning, devils kiss, possession, and maybe bucking bronco.

Then again, I beat it with literally a sliver of ship health left. I couldn't even see it.

Wintersheild is a MUST. When you get your first gear delivered to you by the slot machines or arcade or whatever, by Fink's messenger there is another in the hallway before if you go straight. So there's 2 pieces of Gear here and a checkpoint. Keep going through the 2 pieces and reverting until you get wintershield.

 

[Madrin]

Just finished this. Good game. I suspected early on that Booker was Comstock, and then my suspicions were basically confirmed when I noticed on the loading screen that Booker had the same birth date as Comstock (it's partially covered up but you can tell it says "1874"). I'm surprised they included such an obvious clue.

The one thing I don't understand is why Elizabeth created a tear to Rapture at one point. Was that just a random tie-in to the previous games or did I miss the significance there? I don't understand how she knew about Rapture.

 

[Atraveller]

Just finished this. Good game. I suspected early on that Booker was Comstock, and then my suspicions were basically confirmed when I noticed on the loading screen that Booker had the same birth date as Comstock (it's partially covered up but you can tell it says "1874"). I'm surprised they included such an obvious clue.

The one thing I don't understand is why Elizabeth created a tear to Rapture at one point. Was that just a random tie-in to the previous games or did I miss the significance there? I don't understand how she knew about Rapture.

She needs a place that can create high pressure to crush Song Bird.

Also fan service.

 

[Red]

She needs a place that can create high pressure to crush Song Bird.

Also fan service.

It's also symbolic. "Always a man and a lighthouse."

 

[Salamando]

She needs a place that can create high pressure to crush Song Bird.

Also fan service.

Pretty much that. Songbird also had a good bit of momentum on him, so putting a barrier between them was necessary. Fink's voxophones hint that they stole some tech from Rapture via a tear, so the two universes must be relatively close together. Liz just warped them to the nearest place that fit their requirements.

 

[Trigger]

It's also symbolic. "Always a man and a lighthouse."

Bonus symbolism: Songbird drowning also mirrors Booker's eventual drowning in the ending and the concept of baptism (if you want to take it that far).

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Fink's voxophones hint that they stole some tech from Rapture via a tear

Can you elaborate that?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Can you elaborate that?

I remember one where he talks about seeing a "merger of man and machine" or something like that. Handymen/Big Daddies.

 

[wetflame]

Can you elaborate that?

Possibly this one of Fink's:

"Dear brother, these holes in the thin air continue to pay dividends. I know not which musician you borrow your notes from, but if he has half the genius of the biologist I now observe, well...then you are to be the Mozart of Columbia."

Edit: Here's the one Cheezmo's talking about:

These holes have shown me yet another wonder, though I've yet to see the application for it. They illuminate a merger of machine and man that is somehow the lesser, yet the greater, of both parties. The process seems to be irreversible. Perhaps, though, Comstock will have some need of this kind of thing to keep watch in that tower of his.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I remember one where he talks about seeing a "merger of man and machine" or something like that. Handymen/Big Daddies.

Possibly this one of Fink's:


Edit: Here's the one Cheezmo's talking about:

The musician voxophone has no connection to Rapture. The voxophone regarding "merger of man and machine" is more interesting, but I still find it a bit vague to be evidence that it's from Rapture. It could be from a lot of places, but by all means it could also be a Big Daddy that he saw. Are there any other voxophones regarding this matter?

 

[wetflame]

The musician voxophone has no connection to Rapture. The voxophone regarding "merger of man and machine" is more interesting, but I still find it a bit vague to be evidence that it's from Rapture. It could be from a lot of places, but by all means it could also be a Big Daddy that he saw. Are there any other voxophones regarding this matter?

The part about observing the biologist is more what I was referring to, that coupled with the other one suggests they're looking at somewhere where experiments are being done merging man and machine, as was done in Rapture. There's no explicit mention of it being Rapture, it's obviously open to your own interpretation. It could be another place entirely, but people like to connect it to Rapture because it seems like that would be the intention of the game's designers.

 

[Salamando]

The part about observing the biologist is more what I was referring to, that coupled with the other one suggests they're looking at somewhere where experiments are being done merging man and machine, as was done in Rapture. There's no explicit mention of it being Rapture, it's obviously open to your own interpretation. It could be another place entirely, but people like to connect it to Rapture because it seems like that would be the intention of the game's designers.

Within the limited scope of our evidence, those tears linking to Rapture are the simplest and most likely answer. Vigors are so similar to plasmids, and the only possible explanation of their origin is the Biologist Fink was monitoring. The Voxophone referencing a merger of Man and Machine was found next to the Songbird version of the Virtruvian Man.

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

I disagree. Linking it to Rapture is not the most likely answer. Not at all. This is not by any means any sort of evidence that they've had tears to Rapture. I also don't see how Fink would have gotten the idea of vigors from Rapture either. The powers are different and they way you gain them are vastly different. From the players perspective, vigors are basically the equivalent of plasmids, yes, but if this was "real", then plasmids and vigors would nonetheless be vastly different. You don't just see a plasmid through a tear and think "oh, I bet I could make a power that you can drink that'll let you send crows flying". It simply doesn't add up.

Unless there are some other voxophones proving otherwise, there is no proof whatsoever that anyone in Columbia has been in or seen Rapture through a tear, though I'd love the upcoming DLC to expand on that.

 

[Deku Tree]

1999 mode is too easy IMO. I admit that I'm not that far into the game yet, and it is my second play through, and I got 100% on Bioshock 1 & 2. But so far I am finding Infinite's 1999 mode to be not that hard at all.

 

[Salamando]

I disagree. Linking it to Rapture is not the most likely answer. Not at all. This is not by any means any sort of evidence that they've had tears to Rapture. I also don't see how Fink would have gotten the idea of vigors from Rapture either. The powers are different and they way you gain them are vastly different. From the players perspective, vigors are basically the equivalent of plasmids, yes, but if this was "real", then plasmids and vigors would nonetheless be vastly different. You don't just see a plasmid through a tear and think "oh, I bet I could make a power that you can drink that'll let you send crows flying". It simply doesn't add up.

Unless there are some other voxophones proving otherwise, there is no proof whatsoever that anyone in Columbia has been in or seen Rapture through a tear, though I'd love the upcoming DLC to expand on that.

Where do you think the Vigors came from then, if not Rapture?

I'll agree, it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny. Plasmids were heavily ADAM based, which was harvested from sea slugs (and later from people who had sea slugs implanted in them). They might've been able to see the process, but they'd be missing raw materials. Perhaps that's the reason for the differences then? They were stuck using synthetic ADAM, which had similar but not identical properties?

Main reason I'll stick to the Rapture explanation is its the only one we have. Bioshock games tended to go out of their way to explain just about everything...even Infinite's death/restart mechanic has an explanation.

 

[Trigger]

I disagree. Linking it to Rapture is not the most likely answer. Not at all.

So what is the most likely answer here?

 

[LonelyGreyWolf]

Where do you think the Vigors came from then, if not Rapture?

I'll agree, it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny. Plasmids were heavily ADAM based, which was harvested from sea slugs (and later from people who had sea slugs implanted in them). They might've been able to see the process, but they'd be missing raw materials. Perhaps that's the reason for the differences then? They were stuck using synthetic ADAM, which had similar but not identical properties?

Main reason I'll stick to the Rapture explanation is its the only one we have. Bioshock games tended to go out of their way to explain just about everything...even Infinite's death/restart mechanic has an explanation.

So what is the most likely answer here?

Well, plasmids were invented in Rapture. They didn't need any inspiration from another society. So why would Columbia need it? Why is so hard to grasp that the vigors were invented in Columbia, without any inspiration from a different city? I just don't see why they (and by they I mean the people of Columbia, not the developers of the game) would need to draw inspiration from Rapture. And even if they got inspiration from elsewhere, it could be any society. There could be countless other cities. And like you said plasmids are harvested from sea slugs. These sea slugs have cancer-like properties, and they need to be powered by EVE. It's built completely different from the vigors. Like you said they could be missing the raw materials, but it just doesn't make sense because the vigors and plasmids are so extremely unlike each other in the way they're built.

 

[wetflame]

Obviously if you choose to interpret that they weren't referring to Rapture then that's fine. I feel like the developers were trying to create a thematic link between Columbia and Rapture, and the voxophone discussing seeing a man/machine hybrid is so evocative of the Big Daddies of Rapture that it seems unlikely that it's referring to anything else, especially as we see Rapture itself at the end of the game rather than some other city with similar goings-on. But given as it's not directly referenced then we can all be happy in imagining what we want.

 

[Blader]

Just finished it. Really enjoyed the game, ending was a total trip. Had a big grin on my face when we got to visit Rapture again. I only wish they had paced the story throughout the game better (like the original Bioshock), instead of dumping it all on you at the end.

I more or less "get" the Booker = Comstock twist, but I thought all the infinity reality stuff kind of overshadowed some of the more basic motivations I was looking to understand. Like, what exactly was Comstock's goal? What he did want Anna/Elizabeth for her in the first place? And why does Elizabeth grow up to destroy New York? These feel like very dumb questions to be asking but unless I missed something obvious I'm not entirely sure what Comstock's endgame for it all was.

 

[Train of Midnight]