BishopLamont
Banned
That doesn't sound fun to you? People complain LoL is boring at the start without the denying aspect.Halycon said:
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Blizzard: Valve shouldn't trademark DOTA
- Thread starter Pooya
- Start date
Those people are tryhard PvP idiots who're only playing LoL because they get curbstomped in HoN.
Yes, I like denying but the concept would seem silly to a lot of other people. It was an unintended consequence of the WC3 engine and integrated into the gameplay. It is by no means necessary.
Yes, I like denying but the concept would seem silly to a lot of other people. It was an unintended consequence of the WC3 engine and integrated into the gameplay. It is by no means necessary.
Halycon said:
Agree that it is less intuitive, but you are making it out to be like its a colossal effort to deny. It is incredibly easy to keep track of (if you have hp bars always on) because all you have to do is attack whatever creep that is close to dying, regardless of what team it is on. It is simply not that hard to do.
BishopLamont
Banned
You deny their creep and so you get a reward out of it, just like killing a creep does. Killing anything gives you a reward, why shouldn't denying do the same thing?
What about projectile travel speed? And lag period after a successful attack? You don't want to just right click, you need to cancel your animation at the soonest possible moment so you don't get counter harassed. It's more difficult for melee since they obviously have to get up to the creep to do it. Then there's varying amounts of damage, how targets might shift, and how good your opponents are at it as well. And you have to keep watching your mini map as well as opportunities to harass/dive for first blood at the same time.
No really you guys are talking from the perspective of someone who's done this for a long time, at least I hope you are. It is by no means an easy skill to pick up.
But if you wanted to talk about the psychology of the matter then you can distinguish between last hitting a creep and denying like this:
When you last hit a creep you're in control of what happens. The consequences of getting the hit on an enemy is obvious.
But when someone denies you a creep it's different. Suddenly you have to take into account their skill level respective to yours. And the effects of denial are more subtle. A new player who keeps getting denied would not feel the impact of his mistakes until about level 6-7, when everyone has their ults except the new player and he's suddenly outpaced. At that point it's too late to correct it, so clearly they realize they clearly made a mistake somewhere. However, it's not immediately obvious where they went wrong, which leads to frustration and a less enjoyable match overall. Multiple instances of feeling "left in the dark" concerning the games mechanics will ultimately cause them to abandon the game, feeling like it's too hostile and unfriendly. Which is absolutely true. Dota is not very forgiving and you really have to want to get better if you're going to play it for a long amount of time. The metagame's changed since 6.1x (which is when I started) and you're pretty much expected to know how to deny even in APEM games, where newbies, originally, congregated before they joined TDA or some other tryhard clan/community.
No really you guys are talking from the perspective of someone who's done this for a long time, at least I hope you are. It is by no means an easy skill to pick up.
Well, I'm not sure if I ever said it shouldn't give you an award, since denying has to have ramifications to mean anything, but Riot decided their game would be better without it and I could understand their position.
But if you wanted to talk about the psychology of the matter then you can distinguish between last hitting a creep and denying like this:
When you last hit a creep you're in control of what happens. The consequences of getting the hit on an enemy is obvious.
But when someone denies you a creep it's different. Suddenly you have to take into account their skill level respective to yours. And the effects of denial are more subtle. A new player who keeps getting denied would not feel the impact of his mistakes until about level 6-7, when everyone has their ults except the new player and he's suddenly outpaced. At that point it's too late to correct it, so clearly they realize they clearly made a mistake somewhere. However, it's not immediately obvious where they went wrong, which leads to frustration and a less enjoyable match overall. Multiple instances of feeling "left in the dark" concerning the games mechanics will ultimately cause them to abandon the game, feeling like it's too hostile and unfriendly. Which is absolutely true. Dota is not very forgiving and you really have to want to get better if you're going to play it for a long amount of time. The metagame's changed since 6.1x (which is when I started) and you're pretty much expected to know how to deny even in APEM games, where newbies, originally, congregated before they joined TDA or some other tryhard clan/community.
BishopLamont
Banned
All that applies to killing a creep, why do you differentiate the two? No one is saying its an easy skill to pick up, just that its the same effort as killing a creep, seriously, you don't just right click to kill a creep either, you still gotta time.Halycon said:
Melee units usually have faster attack animation and don't suffer from projectile speed, that balances out the melee/range dynamic.
If you want to game, jump on Bored Aussie server.
Because you have to time their timing as well. Pretty sure I mentioned this.BishopLamont said:
Depends. Some heroes have great attack animations, they come out fast and end fast as well so you can run in for a hit and run out. Others? Not so much. Take Bloodseeker/Blodhunter vs Barathrum/Rampage. The former is much easier to last hit with than the latter. With experience, you're able to adapt to any attack animation within just a single creepwave. But experience is not available to a player who's just starting out. And don't even get me started on earthshaker/behemoth.
EDIT: Oh I see why I'm getting so much resistance. No you're confused. I'm not defending Jwong's stance I think he's a crazy LoL fanboy.
In solo mid lane, .u would time ur ranged creep rather than the opponent. In laning, yes u need to time on hero since theres two heroes..but more or less..its the ranged creep.
There are several melee heroes wHo can handle solo lane very well..in laning, not as much, but pulling creeps helps a ton..also, i cant stand players who arent aggressive. This is why i solo mid.
There are several melee heroes wHo can handle solo lane very well..in laning, not as much, but pulling creeps helps a ton..also, i cant stand players who arent aggressive. This is why i solo mid.
SouthernDragon
Member
So...
I played DotA hardcore 4 years ago. I just started LoL.
LoL's pretty damn good, lots of fun, welcoming.
DotA and the DotA name should stay with the community, in my opinion.
I played DotA hardcore 4 years ago. I just started LoL.
LoL's pretty damn good, lots of fun, welcoming.
DotA and the DotA name should stay with the community, in my opinion.
How does denying be more competitive than the actual killing of creep?EviLore said:
In DotA, a player is either killing creep, harassing or killing opponents, or denying. The existence of the latter takes away from the first two. Removing denying focuses the game on player interaction rather than passive interaction with ally creep. League of Legends focused the gameplay on killing creep for gold gains and harassing opponents when they try to kill their targets.
There's really nothing to be gained out of denying than to annoy the other players and slowing down the game (reducing exp gains).
A significant level advantage (if done right) and denial of gold (which is less of an issue in LoL) seems like pretty obvious gains.
And an extra avenue of competition between players and how they can exert pressure on each other is, obviously, more competitive.
If anything, just attacking enemy creeps is much more passive because you do not need to consider your opponent at all when going for a last hit in LoL. Only through harassment can they possibly dissuade you to hit a creep. Denying gives everyone a way to harass their enemies.
For example, given two ranged heroes in solo mid, whichever one has better harassing skills would dominate. But with denying, even if they have better harassment skills you can keep them from outpacing you in terms of gold, and sometimes even stunt their growth entirely.
And an extra avenue of competition between players and how they can exert pressure on each other is, obviously, more competitive.
If anything, just attacking enemy creeps is much more passive because you do not need to consider your opponent at all when going for a last hit in LoL. Only through harassment can they possibly dissuade you to hit a creep. Denying gives everyone a way to harass their enemies.
For example, given two ranged heroes in solo mid, whichever one has better harassing skills would dominate. But with denying, even if they have better harassment skills you can keep them from outpacing you in terms of gold, and sometimes even stunt their growth entirely.
FieryBalrog
Member
Halcyon said:
BishopLamont said:
Its pretty terrible unless you're the host. Host has a broken advantage in DotA when it comes to things like that. With any amount of latency the mechanic feels like shit to me.
No, I mean looking out for opportunities to deny a creep and opportunities to harass at the same time. Prioritizing possible actions is what I'm talking about. If you drew a flowchart for what to do each second/half-second or whatever, the chart for LoL would be less complex than the chart for DotA/HoN because there's no denying in LoL.JWong said:
When your opponent and your dying ally creep is in range, you're only going to do one thing. My experience is that denying is priority at that point. Detracts from the PVP aspect.Halycon said:
If your opponent is out of range and not attacking, then there is no competition between you and the opponent when you deny a creep. It's like a lone tower that's near death because of creeps attacking it. You take five hits to blow it up. How is that competitive? The opponent wasn't even involved with killing the tower.
Not true. Every moment, I am either killing opponent creep for gold or harassing the opponent. When I play Annie or Kat, harass serves as an effective way to force the player to go back to base. I can easily force their hand in under 5 minutes.Halycon said:
True, that is if you're prioritizing denying creeps. What if there are two creeps with low health in range. Do you deny or do you go for the last hit? or if there are two allied creeps with low health, which one do you deny first? Or if they are in range of your skills? Because going for denies means leaving yourself open to potential harassment.JWong said:
Denying is clearly the obvious choice when there is only one creep that's low and both sides are too far away from each other to do anything. But even in this case, you're at least involved instead of just watching your opponent farm away at weak creeps.
That's a decision tree of two. Denying would add an extra potential decision to every moment.This is what I was trying to get across.
You just chose two of the best harassing heroes who have (nearly) limitless resource pools at early game. They're some of the best cases FOR denying because not many heroes can match up to their given skills for harassing.
Yes being able to attack/deny your own creeps is an important strategic part of the laning phase. It allows both players a measure of control over the flow and position of the wave in lane, and being able to attack both creates and denies scenarios in which you can force your opponent to chose between last hits and denies, in addition to influencing/forcing positioning and posture changes team wide in a more meta manner - if you're a ranged hero laning against a hatchet BH and you have no significant nukes to harass with, he will deny you experience, deny you money, and your team will lose that lane and allow him to snowball if they don't adjust their play accordingly.
People who would assert that it offers no strategic value to the game were/are simply bad at DotA/HoN. Sorry.
People who would assert that it offers no strategic value to the game were/are simply bad at DotA/HoN. Sorry.
First statement already favours ranged. When a range does a deny, they are never in danger of harass.Halycon said:
For the second statement, if adding any decision to the game makes it competitive, why not add gathering resources? Capture points for bonuses? Adding more decisions takes away from the core gameplay of heroes vs heroes. From that kind of reasoning, playing Warcraft 3 is infinitely more competitive than DotA.
It's not just about strategy, it's also about balance. Deny favours ranged.JoeMartin said:
And playing LoL will force you from hiding behind your creep and actually attacking the players.
I do not have a problem with them trademarking DOTA. But taking those art assets so literally based on the concept art is going a little far on Valve's part. Granted, Blizzard has borrowed or stolen based on your perception from a ton of sources, but that concept art for DOTA 2 is just blatant. Those are their elves and those are their elementals, and just because you pay for the DOTA name does not mean you should get away with essentially stealing assets from another game which the mod was built off of. At least change them up a bit and put your own style on them.
In practice the heroes with the better attack animations are favored, because there aren't as many nukes flying around early game (unless you're playing against someone with built in mana regen). Even if you're melee as long as you can deny well and prevent yourself from getting too low through means of regeneration, you'll do fine. That's where couriers come in and why Valenti always yells at us to buy one.JWong said:
Also you can out farm a ranged hero mid with loggers hatchet, sufficient rune control and good denying.
It was never a conscious decision but a consequence of working with the WC3 engine that was generally seen as something interesting for players to learn. So it was kept. It was, however, Riot's decision to remove it. Denying IS part of the core gameplay, and which is why I will always find LoL much less demanding to play than HoN.
For what's its worth, getting gold and exp is tantamount to gathering resources. Controlling jungle and map awareness is more or less equivalent to capturing points. I don't know how you're making the "core gameplay" argument when Dota is the progenitor of all MOBA gameplay. If it was integrated in the very original for a very long time, how can it not be considered "core"?
Yes this is true.
*picks ezreal*
*moves to the left*
*Q + click
*move to the right*
*Q + click*
You do realize Riot made sure innate mana and health regen is pretty high because it makes the player feel like they're doing something, right? And this does not directly translate to competitiveness? Because although you can nuke them more often they also regenerate health faster than heroes in DotA/HoN so it's more or less even. But it creates a semblance of proactiveness and that's what they were looking for. The natural regen is so high that most of the community considers regeneration on items a waste of stats and are not factored into any considerations of cost efficiency except on certain heroes.
JWong said:
Well the obvious answer to this next glorious bit of your misguided crusade is Hatchet.
But as an aside I'm more interested in how you care to defend that as the blanket statement it is. Ranged as a general concept has an inherent advantage over melee in any and every situation. Yet balance remains. Why then, does denying so favor ranged in such an egregious way that it doesn't effect the same response for every other situation where both players are attacking the same thing or one another (i.e. the entire rest of the game)?
JWong said:
You're such an outstanding LoL fanboy. :lol
BudokaiMR2
Member
What the hell has this thread turned into?
:lol
:lol
Ranged never always has an advantage over melee. Who the hell told you that?JoeMartin said:
It's obvious that ranged has deny advantages in early game when melee has no skills to engage or finish.
And Guinsoo took it out. Y'know, the original author of DotA Allstars. I mean, I'll let him and his team speak on it.Halycon said:
Obvious design decisions were made in taking it out. It does nothing to add to the competitiveness of the game of heroes versus heroes. Also, emphasize that last point. It's just counterintuitive to kill your own allies and towers.LoL website said:
And about being Ezreal, that's not how to play them effectively. If you do that, my Kat will destroy you and avoid your shots at the same time. Ezreal is weak with pushing and susceptible to melee.
BishopLamont
Banned
Basically boils down to this, no amount of convincing is going persuade people who suck at denying, even though its the exact same thing as killing a creep.Scrow said:
Anyone who has a lick of skill wouldn't be even debating the fact.
There's something called DR.FieryBalrog said:
You have to time killing their creeps too, seriously, are you just being ignorant on purpose? I want you to read this carefully ok? The only difference between killing a creep and denying a creep is that one is yours and one isn't.Halycon said:
The thing is melee heroes will never lane by themselves unless they have the ability to do so in the first place. That's the point of support heroes, to get the enemy off their carries' back so they can farm freely whilst denying when they can. The games much more than two heroes in a lane going at each other. If a melee happens to buy an iron buckler which I consider a must on most agil heroes then they can handle the harass and focus on last hitting.
LoL is like easy mode. Incredibly easy to farm with the help of spammable abilities and infinite mana regen. Most melees tend to have some type of ranged skill with low mana cost so it doesn't even matter whether you're ranged or not.
LoL is like easy mode. Incredibly easy to farm with the help of spammable abilities and infinite mana regen. Most melees tend to have some type of ranged skill with low mana cost so it doesn't even matter whether you're ranged or not.
BishopLamont
Banned
...and yet you guys still can't do it? :lolJWong said:
BishopLamont
Banned
Yeah because in DotA its all about ze creep denying, no pvp there!JWong said:
One for each side.
You're right! We should just do away with these creeps and towers and items altogether and play bloodline champions.
Yay personal insults. Now we just need someone to call someone else a gay lizard faggot jew and this thread will become a microcosm of the dota community.
I was not talking about denying vs last hitting in a vacuum. of course the acts are the same. But that doens't mean anything.
No Denying:
You're hitting enemy creeps and enemy heroes.
Denying:
Both you and your opponent are competing for all creeps on the field in addition to harassment.
when you consider it in a vacuum of course it's going to seem trivially easy.JWong said:
but we all know there are many things you need to keep track of in these DotA style games, which can make denying or preventing denying difficult.
the act itself isn't difficult, but mixing it in with everything else you're trying to manage at the same time can be
for me it's an unnecessary complexity in a game that is already challenging enough for my skill level.
BishopLamont
Banned
One, its not under your control, you actually have more control of their units then your own. Two, creep denying + pvp > pvp - creep denying.JWong said:
It's called sarcasm buddy, thought it was pretty obvious from the faux french and exclamation mark, and the general obviousness of it all.JWong said:
Uh yes, it is under your control. You're on the same side as your ally creep. How can you not be in more control of your own space than your opponent? It's like lane blocking. Some arbitrary move to gain trivial advantage so that the fight ends up closer to your tower. You have control over your creep.BishopLamont said:
And for your second statement, your preference is less PVP than the latter. For player interaction sake, PVPing without deny > PVPing with deny. No denying focuses on PVP and not anti-fun.
JWong said:
Nah I'm looking at the game as a whole. Denying is one aspect. There's creep pulling, creep stacking, real jukes (LoL barely has any besides the occasional run into bush then out), and team synergy (I'm talking about buying TPs when your team needs it, warding, etc), and of course some abilities require more skill to use as well.
Like I said, the games differ in that in HoN, melees will always farm because they need it in order to be effective late game. The support heroes are the ones doing a lot of harassing and providing maintenance for their carries. If you want to play a more 'skillful' game by your definition then next time you turn on DotA/HoN you can choose the support heroes.
All of that which you list are done effectively in League of Legends, and juking moreso with summoner abilities. I've done so many juking strats that turned the tide of the game, so I really don't know what you're talking about when it seems like you don't know it happens in LoL.Duran said:
Uuuh... it's a PVP game. To have fun in PVP is to PVP. This isn't Alterac Valley.Halycon said:
FleckSplat
Member
#firstworldproblems
Gabe Newell was at BlizzCon. Someone snapped a photo of him playing Blizzard DOTA.
http://kotaku.com/5672493/valve-checking-out-blizzard
http://kotaku.com/5672493/valve-checking-out-blizzard
Oh you, spying hard on the competitionAkia said:Gabe Newell was at BlizzCon. Someone snapped a photo of him playing Blizzard DOTA.
http://kotaku.com/5672493/valve-checking-out-blizzard