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[JWong]

Tell us how LoL is balanced and they addresses denying by removing it. I like that shpeel.

Removing creep deny is the smartest thing anyone could have done for the genre. It is the stupidest design decision ever that favours ranged heroes.

LoL would then focus its efforts on hero harassing and build a new item set around early game. DotA early game was all about how to make the game less fun for the other player.

I disagree. The huge amount of heroes Icefrog has implemented have been heavily tested and, barring a quick tweak or two, mix perfectly within the game.

The same thing always happens when a new hero is introduced: people don't know what to expect from the hero, they don't fully understand its capabilities, and whenever they play a game against one and die they scream "OMG THE NEW HERO IS SO IMBA OMGGG!" 99% of the time it's their fault for dying and they just didn't understand what they were up against. After a week or two of getting used to them nobody complains anymore.

I've been there for a lot of hero additions. Some of them were completely wiped off, and heroes like Alleria Windrunner were so overpowered.

Batrider was in the game for a while before being taken out for a year until Icefrog reimplemented. It was just broken and out of place when it was put in. So, no, Icefrog does not have heroes heavily tested before putting them in.

I don't know if you play LoL, but they add heroes all the time that fits well. Why? Because they have the game balancer from Blizzard who knows his trade. And there's no doubt that Blizzard themselves will be bringing a great DotA for SC2 players.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Removing creep deny is the smartest thing anyone could have done for the genre. It is the stupidest design decision ever that favors ranged heroes.

Wait, LoL took out creep denying? And this is a good thing? Creep denying is an integral part of good strategy and very tricky to master. Yes, it can favor ranged heroes but that's a part of the game balance and a challenge you, as a melee hero, have to overcome. Successfully creep denying and keeping the enemy under-leveled and low on gold is an essential aspect of gameplay. I really hope Dota 2 keeps it in.

As far as unbalanced heroes are concerned, a few exceptions do not make the rule.

 

[BishopLamont]

Removing creep deny is the smartest thing anyone could have done for the genre. It is the stupidest design decision ever that favours ranged heroes.

LoL would then focus its efforts on hero harassing and build a new item set around early game. DotA early game was all about how to make the game less fun for the other player.

I've been there for a lot of hero additions. Some of them were completely wiped off, and heroes like Alleria Windrunner were so overpowered.

Batrider was in the game for a while before being taken out for a year until Icefrog reimplemented. It was just broken and out of place when it was put in. So, no, Icefrog does not have heroes heavily tested before putting them in.

I don't know if you play LoL, but they add heroes all the time that fits well. Why? Because they have the game balancer from Blizzard who knows his trade. And there's no doubt that Blizzard themselves will be bringing a great DotA for SC2 players.

Wow creep denying is a bad thing? It favours ranged heroes? :lol

To my knowledge, no "normal" hero has been taken out after its been put in the game, it certainly hasn't happened under Icefrog's control. It doesn't matter that they're imbalanced when they're in the game for the first time, Icefrog keeps working on them.

Wait, LoL took out creep denying? And this is a good thing? Creep denying is an integral part of good strategy and very tricky to master. Yes, it can favor ranged heroes but that's a part of the game balance and a challenge you, as a melee hero, have to overcome. Successfully creep denying and keeping the enemy under-leveled and low on gold is an essential aspect of gameplay. I really hope Dota 2 keeps it in.

As far as unbalanced heroes are concerned, a few exceptions do not make the rule.

Simplying the game to just ranged > melee is a grave mistake many people make.

 

[JWong]

Wait, LoL took out creep denying? And this is a good thing? Creep denying is an integral part of good strategy and very tricky to master. Yes, it can favor ranged heroes but that's a part of the game balance and a challenge you, as a melee hero, have to overcome. Successfully creep denying and keeping the enemy under-leveled and low on gold is an essential aspect of gameplay. I really hope Dota 2 keeps it in.

As far as unbalanced heroes are concerned, a few exceptions do not make the rule.

I'll let them explain.

Fun Fails to Exceed Anti-Fun
This is where the 'anti-fun' created on your opponents by your use of a mechanic is greater than your fun in using the mechanic. Dark Binding is VERY favorable on this measurement, because opponents get clutch dodges just like you get clutch hits. On the other hand, a strong mana burn is NOT desirable -- if you drain someone to 0 you feel kinda good, and they feel TERRIBLE -- so the anti-fun is exceeded by the fun. This is important because the goal of the game is for players to have fun, so designers should seek abilities that result in a net increase of fun in the game. Basic design theory, yes?

Creep deny is anti-fun. It's escalated with faster attackers, ranged attackers, and lag. Removing it and focusing the fun around killing the opponents creep and making final blows more rewarding makes it more fun.

 

[BishopLamont]

Creep denying is not fun so its bad...ok. Oh man. :lol

I must be doing something seriously wrong coz I find creep denying to be fun. Going by that "anti-fun" logic, creeping is just as bad, since I'm pretty sure the opponent feels like shit when I'm farming my head off.

New heroes are always going be "OP" or "UP" once they are first introduced. Most of the time, it's simply just people not knowing how to deal with them.

Anyways, if we are talking about LoL and Valve's DOTA. Outside of the free to play system I'd love to see Valve take over. The match making is another, specifically where you can only be connected to one game at a time. Person wants to rage quit? Can't get into another game till the other one finishes. Could be anything from 5 minutes to 30minutes they would have to wait. And even then, they get zero points.... points which are actually used to buy new heroes. Not just shitty rank or cosmetic features.

All this + playing with people from all over the world without the lag. (they better do it)

 

[shintoki]

New heroes are always going be "OP" or "UP" once they are first introduced. Most of the time, it's simply just people not knowing how to deal with them.

Anyways, if we are talking about LoL and Valve's DOTA. Outside of the free to play system I'd love to see Valve take over. The match making is another, specifically where you can only be connected to one game at a time. Person wants to rage quit? Can't get into another game till the other one finishes. Could be anything from 5 minutes to 30minutes they would have to wait. And even then, they get zero points.... points which are actually used to buy new heroes. Not just shitty rank or cosmetic features.

 

[erpg]

It gets better every time I hear it.

 

[Feel the Swift]

boo hoo.

 

[JWong]

Creep denying is not fun so its bad...ok. Oh man. :lol

It may be fun for you, but think about the other player.

The other player puts effort into killing a creep, taking down 95% of it's HP, then you snipe the last 5%. The implications are so obvious. I'm pretty sure you've complained about kill stealing. Same concept.

 

[BishopLamont]

It may be fun for you, but think about the other player.

The other player puts effort into killing a creep, taking down 95% of it's HP, then you snipe the last 5%. The implications are so obvious. I'm pretty sure you've complained about kill stealing. Same concept.

Uh...I am the "other player" just as much as the other player is..I know how it feels to be denied of a creep, it invokes the same amount of "fun" as killing a creep does...its part of the game, I mean losing isn't fun...let's take out that possibility? Getting ganked is not fun, let's take that out too? Seriously, you're talking about basic game designs by removing one of the most basic game designs?

Sounds like you need to stop playing em mode and learn the real deal.

 

[PillowKnight]

It may be fun for you, but think about the other player.

The other player puts effort into killing a creep, taking down 95% of it's HP, then you snipe the last 5%. The implications are so obvious. I'm pretty sure you've complained about kill stealing. Same concept.

What, the, fuck?

What you're talking about is dumbing down the game, it's not a simple "remove the feature and nothing was lost," sort of situation . Removing the lane push/pull mechanic that is so inherent in the 'creep' part of the game. Removing the last hit/deny mind games that occur when both players understand the game. Things like: paying attention to subtle cues to see when your opponent is about to last hit, feinting and animation canceling to play mind games, and setting up the creep wave so that it's to your advantage.

Yes, if you want to create a casual game(ie wide audience) this dumbing down is good. But that's not to imply that one way is more fun than the other.

I'm willing to make the game less fun for myself whenever I get out last hit because the upshot is an entire other dimension of depth that is added to the game via the mechanics I mentioned previously.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

It may be fun for you, but think about the other player.

The other player puts effort into killing a creep, taking down 95% of it's HP, then you snipe the last 5%. The implications are so obvious. I'm pretty sure you've complained about kill stealing. Same concept.

Then its up to you to get the last hit and don't let the enemy deny it. It's a part of the gameplay and strategy. It's no more "anti-fun" than it is getting killed by an enemy hero. Should we make all heroes invincible because you get butthurt when you die? It's an absolutely ridiculous "change for change's sake," dumbs down the experience and the explanation from the devs does not give me much confidence in their design abilities.

 

[EviLore]

The other player puts effort into killing a creep, taking down 95% of it's HP, then you snipe the last 5%.

Which is why you don't autoattack creeps like that.

The same goes for LoL, actually, despite the lack of denying. There are many circumstances where you just want to be last-hitting creeps and not pushing the lane forward, so in those cases it's basically the same thing except there's less to do (and less on the line) since you can't deny.

I'm fine with both variants at this point. LoL does its own thing and aims to be less frustrating and not just a clone of DotA. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a more hardcore experience than that, especially if Valve can make it more accessible through different means than changing the core mechanics.

 

[BishopLamont]

Pretty ironic to be talking about DotA's fun-ness when everyone's fun factor is at a near 0 when they first get into the game. I mean who didn't attack the heros despite the creeps mobbing them like noobs? Or getting ganked? Or had no idea what items to buy? I bet frustration is a bigger motivation than any fun-ness.

 

[HolyCheck]

No, I want a quote that tells me Blizzard don't want anyone else using the DotA name aswell as them.

facepalm.gif

Well I'm sorry, but lots of people are coming in here saying blizzards evil, and that if they wanted to trademark it they should have done it years ago. I don't see blizzard trying to take it for their selves?

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I'm fine with both variants at this point. LoL does its own thing and aims to be less frustrating and not just a clone of DotA. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a more hardcore experience than that, especially if Valve can make it more accessible through different means than changing the core mechanics.

One of the best aspects of DotA was its many game types. I hope Valve expands on them and makes it easy to create and filter different variations. There's AP, EM, AR, TR, SD, RD, DM, etc. etc. I think adding a -ND (no denying) mode would be a fine compromise.

 

[shintoki]

All this + playing with people from all over the world without the lag. (they better do it)

The "One match at a time" is just such a fantastic feature. If I get disconnected, I can reconnect instantly once I sign back on. 2nd, it's not a penalty unless the person makes it out to be one.

With Valve DOTA, I'm still unsure about it. It's looking to be more of just a port over, which isn't bad. The gameplay is already heavily refined and fantastic, but I'm hoping they do switch and change a few things around. Give it their own flavor still. I guess, I just want something more than DOTA with steam integration(Which definitely isn't bad :lol ).

 

[eosos]

One of the best aspects of DotA was its many game types. I hope Valve expands on them and makes it easy to create and filter different variations. There's AP, EM, AR, TR, SD, RD, DM, etc. etc. I think adding a -ND (no denying) mode would be a fine compromise.

Why no denying?
edit: Oh you were replying to that quote.

 

[BishopLamont]

Well I'm sorry, but lots of people are coming in here saying blizzards evil, and that if they wanted to trademark it they should have done it years ago. I don't see blizzard trying to take it for their selves?

Who's saying they're evil? This is business and in business there's no such thing as "fairness". Blizzard was too slow to do it, so Valve made a move. Nothing more, nothing less.

The "One match at a time" is just such a fantastic feature. If I get disconnected, I can reconnect instantly once I sign back on. 2nd, it's not a penalty unless the person makes it out to be one.

With Valve DOTA, I'm still unsure about it. It's looking to be more of just a port over, which isn't bad. The gameplay is already heavily refined and fantastic, but I'm hoping they do switch and change a few things around. Give it their own flavor still. I guess, I just want something more than DOTA with steam integration(Which definitely isn't bad :lol ).

Eh, it depends how they do it. If they make it so the game continues despite you being disconnected, that can make the game a bit unfair, since you're essentially afking for the time being. Making it so the game pauses til you reconnect isn't better, since we gotta go through the lag box hell again.

Really, all I want is a way to ban leavers/ragers etc etc and a decent integrated ranking/ladder system. I don't really mind that they're copying and pasting for Dota2, its why I rather play HoN than touch LoL. Even if they don't change things a bit, Icefrog will still be there to update the map.

 

[Fredescu]

Well I'm sorry, but lots of people are coming in here saying blizzards evil, and that if they wanted to trademark it they should have done it years ago. I don't see blizzard trying to take it for their selves?

Less specifically about taking the trademark and more about recognising an insanely popular mod and bringing it inhouse and giving it Blizzard resources. If it were a Valve game mod with 10 million players, those guys would have been Valve employees a long long time ago. For what it's worth, I think Valve are being a bit stupid in calling their game DoTA2, but I'm not going to rage about it because I don't care.

 

[Archie]

Eh, it depends how they do it. If they make it so the game continues despite you being disconnected, that can make the game a bit unfair, since you're essentially afking for the time being. Making it so the game pauses til you reconnect isn't better, since we gotta go through the lag box hell again.

Really, all I want is a way to ban leavers/ragers etc etc and a decent integrated ranking/ladder system.

Hopefully they do the HoN where if you DC you have a 5 minute buffer (and indefinite if the game is paused) until you go poof.

Also HoN has an anti leaver system and a ladder.

 

[BishopLamont]

Hopefully they do the HoN where if you DC you have a 5 minute buffer (and indefinite if the game is paused) until you go poof.

Also HoN has an anti leaver system and a ladder.

Yeah I really should get HoN...but I'm happy with DotA, besides...Starcraft 2 has already taken over my life (again). :/

 

[JWong]

Which is why you don't autoattack creeps like that.

The same goes for LoL, actually, despite the lack of denying. There are many circumstances where you just want to be last-hitting creeps and not pushing the lane forward, so in those cases it's basically the same thing except there's less to do (and less on the line) since you can't deny.

I'm fine with both variants at this point. LoL does its own thing and aims to be less frustrating and not just a clone of DotA. That doesn't mean there isn't room for a more hardcore experience than that, especially if Valve can make it more accessible through different means than changing the core mechanics.

Not sure how this applies to the argument. Of course, making final blows are important. Doesn't change the fact that you should be attacking creep and not staying back, saving your attack cooldown, and waiting to deny.

If a player is to make a final blow on a creep, it should not be detrimental for the opposing players which is what denying does. That involves both sides of the party with one side having fun and the other losing fun. Instead, it should only produce fun results for one side.

Pretty ironic to be talking about DotA's fun-ness when everyone's fun factor is at a near 0 when they first get into the game. I mean who didn't attack the heros despite the creeps mobbing them like noobs? Or getting ganked? Or had no idea what items to buy? I bet frustration is a bigger motivation than any fun-ness.

Simply adding "no deny" may not be enough. When you change a core mechanic from a game, you have to change all mechanics that affect it. Every skill, hero, or item that is affected by creep will need to be rebalanced.

 

[Recon]

It may be fun for you, but think about the other player.

The other player puts effort into killing a creep, taking down 95% of it's HP, then you snipe the last 5%. The implications are so obvious. I'm pretty sure you've complained about kill stealing. Same concept.

If you are playing it right, you should never take down a creeps life by 95%. You should wait till they are around 5% life then strike.

 

[Archie]

Not sure how this applies to the argument. Of course, making final blows are important. Doesn't change the fact that you should be attacking creep and not staying back, saving your attack cooldown, and waiting to deny.

If a player is to make a final blow on a creep, it should not be detrimental for the opposing players which is what denying does. That involves both sides of the party with one side having fun and the other losing fun. Instead, it should only produce fun results for one side.

When I lose a game I'm not having fun. Let's make it so that everybody wins.

And for the record, I don't care either way about denying. LoL is fine without it and it adds some variety to the genre.

 

[Sanjay]

It may be fun for you, but think about the other player.

The other player puts effort into killing a creep, taking down 95% of it's HP, then you snipe the last 5%. The implications are so obvious. I'm pretty sure you've complained about kill stealing. Same concept.

Well in HON you can buy this item a Logger's Hatchet, it helps a lot at last hitting creeps. Also the kill stealing comment being the same concept, WTF. You can't complain at your opponent, he's not on your team!

http://www.hondb.com/?item=loggers-hatchet

 

[BishopLamont]

Not sure how this applies to the argument. Of course, making final blows are important. Doesn't change the fact that you should be attacking creep and not staying back, saving your attack cooldown, and waiting to deny.

If a player is to make a final blow on a creep, it should not be detrimental for the opposing players which is what denying does. That involves both sides of the party with one side having fun and the other losing fun. Instead, it should only produce fun results for one side.

Simply adding "no deny" may not be enough. When you change a core mechanic from a game, you have to change all mechanics that affect it. Every skill, hero, or item that is affected by creep will need to be rebalanced.

There's not many skills that can deny a creep..Lich King's skills is the only one that does it..what else?

Well in HON you can buy this item a Logger's Hatchet, it helps a lot at last hitting creeps. Also the kill stealing comment being the same concept, WTF. You can't complain at your opponent, he's not on your team!

http://www.hondb.com/?item=loggers-hatchet

He's talking about your ally killstealing you, but still, it has nothing to do with creep denying.

Also the logger's hatchet is just a copy of DotA's quelling axe, just in case anyone didn't know.

 

[poisonelf]

Absence of denying is one of the major reasons I've yet to try LoL. After years of trying to master last hitting and denying I admit I'm reluctant to give it up. It is perhaps the defining factor of a good player vs. a mediocre player in early game.
I like many levels of mastery in a game, DotA provides that. I'm not saying LoL doesn't, and I'm bound to try it since many of my friends have left DotA for it, but saying that deny is bad because it hurts someone's feelings when they're up against a better player is laughable.

Really hyped for DotA 2.

Edit: And btw, melee heroes strike faster since you don't have to time the 'travel' of the missile, so they sometimes are better at last hitting and denying, just have to cope with harassing.

 

[Archie]

Absence of denying is one of the major reasons I've yet to try LoL. After years of trying to master last hitting and denying I admit I'm reluctant to give it up. It is perhaps the defining factor of a good player vs. a mediocre player in early game.
I like many levels of mastery in a game, DotA provides that. I'm not saying LoL doesn't, and I'm bound to try it since many of my friends have left DotA for it, but saying that deny is bad because it hurts someone's feelings when they're up against a better player is laughable.

Really hyped for DotA 2.

Edit: And btw, melee heroes strike faster since you don't have to time the 'travel' of the missile, so they sometimes are better at last hitting and denying, just have to cope with harassing.

Last hitting is still in LoL. Most pubbies just blindly auto attack and don't try to time anything.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

If a player is to make a final blow on a creep, it should not be detrimental for the opposing players which is what denying does. That involves both sides of the party with one side having fun and the other losing fun. Instead, it should only produce fun results for one side.

The trade-off between gaining and losing "fun" in a competitive PvP game makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is a steep, arbitrary slippery slope. The fact that the developers of LoL use this excuse, as if they can quantify what "fun" is, is laughable. The game isn't broken through the lack of denying, but the arguments for the removal of it haven't convinced me in the slightest.

They should just say: "We thought creep denying in DotA was annoying and unnecessary, so we removed that feature, we hope you agree" instead of inventing this ridiculous "fun-o-meter" rating which shows to me that they are unsure about their design decisions.

 

[JWong]

The trade-off between gaining and losing "fun" in a competitive PvP game makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and is a steep, arbitrary slippery slope. The fact that the developers of LoL use this excuse, as if they can quantify what "fun" is, is laughable. The game isn't broken through the lack of denying, but the arguments for the removal of it haven't convinced me in the slightest.

They should just say: "We thought creep denying in DotA was annoying and unnecessary, so we removed that feature, we hope you agree" instead of inventing this ridiculous "fun-o-meter" rating which shows to me that they are unsure about their design decisions.

Developers of LoL are experienced with development on Warcraft 3, WoW, DotA, etc. etc.

These guys know their design, and fun is not arbitrary.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Developers of LoL are experienced with development on Warcraft 3, WoW, DotA, etc. etc.

These guys know their design, and fun is not arbitrary.

Experience doesn't necessitate good design, and fun isn't arbitrary but it is subjective, and their defense of removing creep denying is based on an arbitrary "fun" quantity.

 

[SlipperySlope]

I'm willing to bet that there is, but it probably wouldn't stand up in court anyways.


That's kind of the point though. The creator of DOTA does not work for Valve. IceFrog didn't create DOTA by even the most insane stretch of the imagination, so it is not his to give away or claim ownership of.


Yes, Blizzard knows shit about community created content. You know, despite the fact that they continually release and support incredibly robust content creation tools that lead to the creation of things like DOTA in the first place.

I think we finally found out what's worse than Nintendo and Apple fans.

 

[poisonelf]

The way I see it, the obvious reason for removing creep denying is slightly dumbing down the game to accommodate new players. It was hard to learn for someone new, and since last-hitting was also out of the question for new players, auto attacking led to them being extra-owned by creep denying, thus less fun, thus less likely to stay and play the game, etc.

Then again the same could be said for almost all aspects of a competitive PvP game, but I guess removing last-hitting or ganking would have simply been too much.

 

[Zeliard]

Thread sort of makes me regret I never got into DotA at all.

 

[HK-47]

Wow, I had no idea Valve and Blizzard had such fanboys.

:lol

 

[DaBuddaDa]

Thread sort of makes me regret I never got into DotA at all.

It's an astoundingly satisfying experience if you can spend the time to learn the game inside and out and can put the flamers out of sight and mind. Also, the flaming/poor sportsmanship issue isn't nearly as pervasive as some would make you believe.

 

[BishopLamont]

Thread sort of makes me regret I never got into DotA at all.

You can start today.

 

[eosos]

It's an astoundingly satisfying experience if you can spend the time to learn the game inside and out and can put the flamers out of sight and mind. Also, the flaming/poor sportsmanship issue isn't nearly as pervasive as some would make you believe.

Quote for truth.
All I'm hearing is some QQ from blizzard.

edit: start today

 

[HK-47]

I think we finally found out what's worse than Nintendo and Apple fans.

No, nothing is worse than Apple fanatics.

 

[Rebel Leader]

No, nothing is worse than Apple fanatics.

There are studies that say so too =3

 

[thepotatoman]

This creep deny thing kindof reminds me of auto split workers discussion for starcraft 2. Its a skill that takes a lot of work to learn and the added enjoyment you harvest from that work probably isn't enough to justify having to learn it. But if you put it in the game you are pretty much requiring every player to learn it if they want to play on equal footing. Of course people that already learned that skill don't want to see it go since they already put in the work necessary to harvest the fun, but its a change that needs to be made at some point for the good of the whole.

 

[EviLore]

This creep deny thing kindof reminds me of auto split workers discussion for starcraft 2. Its a skill that takes a lot of work to learn and the added enjoyment you harvest from that work probably isn't enough to justify having to learn it. But if you put it in the game you are pretty much requiring every player to learn it if they want to play on equal footing. Of course people that already learned that skill don't want to see it go since they already put in the work necessary to harvest the fun, but its a change that needs to be made at some point for the good of the whole.

Except denying is a form of PVP interaction during what is otherwise a PVE aspect of DotA (killing creeps for gold and exp). Considering it's an extremely competitive team vs team game, fighting over creeps through the deny mechanic fits right in. Assigning peons to each crystal manually is just busy work.

 

[Shanadeus]

Except denying is a form of PVP interaction during what is otherwise a PVE aspect of DotA (killing creeps for gold and exp). Considering it's an extremely competitive team vs team game, fighting over creeps through the deny mechanic fits right in. Assigning peons to each crystal manually is just busy work.

Exactly, the latter is just an unnecessary game interaction that is only competitive in the way that it allows you to gain an advantage over an opponent that would otherwise be your equal.

Also:

 

[SapientWolf]

I wouldn't be shocked if DOTA was the primary reason that the 'we own anything made in SC2' clause was added to Blizzard's EULA.

If that is true then it's proof that Activision has infected Blizzard with their unique brand of arrogant anti-consumerism.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Wow creep denying is a bad thing? .

Creep denying is a bad thing because its super boring.

Edit: IMO of course. I always found the last hitting thing in its entirety to be a dull mechanic.

 

[blitz64]

I wonder if Blizzard dota will have deny.

I don't like denying. But playing LoL where there is no denying, the game seems abit boring during those first 6 levels.

 

[Haly]

They removed denying for a good reason and it's because someone who knew how to deny could completely dominate someone who didn't. It's a difficult mechanic to practice and very frustrating for newer players. Which is contrary to their whole philosophy for LoL, removing the super competitive aspects of Dota/HoN (denying, courier management, runes, 3 second fights) to make it more accessible, while still retaining some of the complexity that makes the competition fun (map awareness, ganks, pushes, etc)

It DOES make the game less competitive though, money in LoL in general is extremely lax. Even if you're being denied creeps through harassment, there's so much money coming into your wallet that you can get your core items in time to make a difference in team fights in mid to late game.

In DotA if you don't last hit you are fucking screwed. (Unless you play a support hero but even then, your usefulness diminishes rapidly if you can't get your kuldra/portal key/whatever).

 

[BishopLamont]

They removed denying for a good reason and it's because someone who knew how to deny could completely dominate someone who didn't. It's a difficult mechanic to practice and very frustrating for newer players. Which is contrary to their whole philosophy for LoL, removing the super competitive aspects of Dota/HoN (denying, courier management, runes, 3 second fights) to make it more accessible, while still retaining some of the complexity that makes the competition fun (map awareness, ganks, pushes, etc)

It DOES make the game less competitive though, money in LoL in general is extremely lax. Even if you're being denied creeps through harassment, there's so much money coming into your wallet that you can get your core items in time to make a difference in team fights in mid to late game.

In DotA if you don't last hit you are fucking screwed. (Unless you play a support hero but even then, your usefulness diminishes rapidly if you can't get your kuldra/portal key/whatever).

Denying a creep takes as much work as killing a creep.

Creep denying is a bad thing because its super boring.

Its quite the opposite.

 

[Haly]

It's less intuitive, and the amount of work you have to do quadruples. Since you not only have to take into account the enemy creep's hp and the travel speed of your hits vs their current incoming damage, but also the same variables for your own creeps. Then you have to consider both sets of variables for that of your opponent as well. All the while looking out for chances to harass.

Denying makes the early game significantly more demanding.

Again, there's satisfaction in practicing the art of denying but it's not everyone's cup of tea. Some people play to relax, and fuck if I can relax in a HoN game where I'm not outpacing everyone by a mile.