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[DaBuddaDa]

Your post presupposes that being yelled at and called a fag is the best way to get better at the game, when a much more effective way is having a helpful community to teach you. And personally it doesn't get under my skin, but if I have the choice between playing a game where I'm called a "mexican jew lizard faggot" every 10 seconds and one where I'm not, which one do you think that I'll choose?

No, I'm saying you are the only one who can make yourself better at the game. You don't need a mentor, you just need to play a lot and practice. Valve is doing great stuff to make the game more newbie friendly, which is always a good thing.

And when given the choice, I play the best game, regardless of whether or not I get flamed. I'd rather play DotA and be called a lizard fag than play the abomination that is most online games that were slapped together at the last minute because the senior executives wanted to have "multiplayer!" on the back of the box. Again, getting called a mexican jew lizard faggot makes me laugh, it doesn't get under my skin, and you can block chat if it really bothers you.

 

[Rubezh]

Blizzard should have acted a lot quicker if they saw DOTA's potential all those years ago. I see this move by Valve as perfectly legitimate.

 

[Haly]

I think a lot of the "well the community should be more helpful" criticisms can be traced to Dota's absurdly high learning curve.

It's like if EVE newbies started in null sec.

Valve needs to put a disclaimer on Dota2.

"WARNING: This is not the kind of game where you can just jump into a match and learn as you go. Please do all the tutorials and watch some videos before you feed 0-14-0 and get called a 'faggot lizard jew noob'. Experience may change during online play."

 

[Mudkips]

Why is this the popular response? Pardo doesn't want the IP or anything. He said it belongs to the community and shouldn't be trademarked.

The problem is Blizzard's definition of "the community" is their locked-in, tied-down, extras-for-pay, Battle.net 2.0 service.

 

[Rubius]

I think a lot of the "well the community should be more helpful" criticisms can be traced to Dota's absurdly high learning curve.

It's like if EVE newbies started in null sec.

Valve needs to put a disclaimer on Dota2.

"WARNING: This is not the kind of game where you can just jump into a match and learn as you go. Please do all the tutorials and watch some videos before you feed 0-14-0 and get called a 'faggot lizard jew noob'. Experience may change during online play."

They need to do a Starcraft style of Online.
With Bronze, Silver, Gold and Diamond matchmaking.

 

[Haly]

I'm not sure, did IceFrog mention if he was going to stop development on DotA? I remember him saying that he'll continue to put out new patches regardless of what his employment status is, and he'll have a lot of work cut out for him anyway developing for Dota2 and Dota Allstars at the same time.

It's still "the community's" game as far as that goes.

They need to do a Starcraft style of Online.
With Bronze, Silver, Gold and Diamond matchmaking.

There's assholes at every level. People who think they're good but really aren't, and people who pretend to be at a lower level so they can pubstomp. I don't think this is an issue that can be solved with matchmaking.

In SC2 you're usually playing 1v1s. If you win, then great, if you lose, then you watch the replay and get better for the next game. Not sure how 4v4s go but it's much easier to get carried in SC2 when you can just ask the best person on your team what to build. In Dota it's much more difficult to explain mechanics and how to play a specific hero in the middle of a game. There's a lot of variety in play styles and builds and strategies and many variables that hinge on who your teammates are playing, how skilled they are and what they're building Really, the best way is to learn through observation, either through guides replays or by playing. The problem is most people just do the latter and think it's enough. It's really not, Dota's a game you have to study for when you're just starting out.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

No, I'm saying you are the only one who can make yourself better at the game. You don't need a mentor, you just need to play a lot and practice. Valve is doing great stuff to make the game more newbie friendly, which is always a good thing.

And when given the choice, I play the best game, regardless of whether or not I get flamed. I'd rather play DotA and be called a lizard fag than play the abomination that is most online games that were slapped together at the last minute because the senior executives wanted to have "multiplayer!" on the back of the box. Again, getting called a mexican jew lizard faggot makes me laugh, it doesn't get under my skin, and you can block chat if it really bothers you.

I think that the big problem here is that you're projecting your (and my) thick-skinned perspective on to every potential player. If "hardcore" gaming is ever going to attract a wider audience then it needs to stop being such a cesspool of epeen driven arseholery. I shudder to use the example, but do you think that Farmville would be so successful if they had a forum where posters got flamed to high heaven every time they asked a noob question?

The thing that impresses me about the DOTA 2 MVP system is that it's a form of positive reinforcement driven by social gaming ideas. Anything which makes life easier for all new players, not just new players who have played other online games for years, is something I'll get behind.

 

[Rubius]

It's still "the community's" game as far as that goes.

There's assholes at every level. People who think they're good but really aren't, and people who pretend to be at a lower level so they can pubstomp. I don't think this is an issue that can be solved with matchmaking.

There assholes in any part of anything where there more than 1 person involved. But doing brackets will make newbies able to learn, while Pro will not play with Newbies. Pro will also get some "xp" points by helping newbies by guides, wiki edits or teaching.

 

[Haly]

The Dota/HoN community doesn't really care if it gets bigger or not, they just want to compete with each other.

It does not benefit them at all to babysit you as you learn the game. Rarely are there altruistic players willing to hold your hand, since the environment is not very suitable for those kinds of players.

There assholes in any part of anything where there more than 1 person involved. But doing brackets will make newbies able to learn, while Pro will not play with Newbies. Pro will also get some "xp" points by helping newbies by guides, wiki edits or teaching.

Yeah, that's the idea and I hope Valve pulls it off.

I understand getting into Dota is harder than before because the average skill level of a dota player is much higher than it was a few years ago, when you could pick furion and just push towers down to help your team.

And people still went boots first! And you'd get flamed for getting bfury. Good times.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I think that the big problem here is that you're projecting your (and my) thick-skinned perspective on to every potential player. If "hardcore" gaming is ever going to attract a wider audience then it needs to stop being such a cesspool of epeen driven arseholery. I shudder to use the example, but do you think that Farmville would be so successful if they had a forum where posters got flamed to high heaven every time they asked a noob question?

The old DotA-AllStars community forums were incredibly helpful and inviting, full of great people, hundreds of guides, tips and tricks, etc. It was the in-game people that would do the flaming, which AGAIN, if it bothers you, you can turn off so you don't ever see it.

 

[Snow]

The problem is Blizzard's definition of "the community" is their locked-in, tied-down, extras-for-pay, Battle.net 2.0 service.

They've said all four announced mods will be for free, and they will be released unlocked. Specifically one of the very reasons these are released is so that mod makers can easily scrounge assets from them.

 

[Archie]

There assholes in any part of anything where there more than 1 person involved. But doing brackets will make newbies able to learn, while Pro will not play with Newbies. Pro will also get some "xp" points by helping newbies by guides, wiki edits or teaching.

>Joins APAB NOOBS WELCOME
>Dies
>"fucking noob wtf are u doing"
>"fuk u faggit feeder"
>"kick this noob plz he's terrible"

 

[Rubius]

>Joins APAB NOOBS WELCOME
>Dies
>"fucking noob wtf are u doing"
>"fuk u faggit feeder"
>"kick this noob plz he's terrible"

You can do this conversation in any online video game ever.
WoW have this, Halo have this. Damn even TF2 have this.

 

[Meeru]

>Joins APAB NOOBS WELCOME
>Dies
>"fucking noob wtf are u doing"
>"fuk u faggit feeder"
>"kick this noob plz he's terrible"

lol

 

[Shanadeus]

The original creator of DOTA copied other similar games before it. This genre of game existed before DOTA, it's just the one that became the most popular.

As for Blizzard, they had 10 years to hire any of the DOTA people but never showed any interest in doing so. Valve hires the guy who maintained DOTA for the longest period of time, so they want the name, and that's fine by me. Even if Valve manages to keep the trademark, I don't see them taking down SC2/WC3 DOTA so it doesn't matter.

The thing is DOTA is a new game genre, much like MMO and FPS, that you really shouldn't be able to trademark willy-nilly.

Most trademarks are adopted from words or symbols already common to the culture, as Apple Computer is from apple, instead of being invented by the mark owner (such as Kodak). Courts have recognized that ownership in the mark cannot prevent others from using the word or symbol in these other senses, such as if the trademark is a descriptive word or common symbol such as a pine tree. This means that the less distinctive or original the trademark, the less able the trademark owner will be to control how it is used.

A DOTA is a game type that consist of working in teams of five and attacking the opposing team.

 

[Haly]

You can do this conversation in any online video game ever.
WoW have this, Halo have this. Damn even TF2 have this.

Not nearly as bad in WoW or TF2. Mostly because the other team doesn't get stronger the more you die.

 

[K.Jack]

The problem is Blizzard's definition of "the community" is their locked-in, tied-down, extras-for-pay, Battle.net 2.0 service.

Exactly. Blizzard wants it both ways. It's hypocritical.

We feel DOTA should stay free and open for the community, like it's always been.*

.....

*Anything the community creates for SC2 DOTA is now considered our property. EULA, bitches.


I'd personally rather Valve takes control of it.

 

[Rubius]

Not nearly as bad in WoW or TF2. Mostly because the other team doesn't get stronger the more you die.

>Tank Rush in mobs while the Healer is OOM
>Whole team blame the healer and kick him when the boss drop.

So many time.
But yeah DotA is made to be competetive. Starcraft 2 is not that bad from what I seen... except in Bronze matches where you see "4gate fagget" all day everyday. Even if you play as Zerg.

 

[shintoki]

The Dota/HoN community doesn't really care if it gets bigger or not, they just want to compete with each other.

It does not benefit them at all to babysit you as you learn the game. Rarely are there altruistic players willing to hold your hand, since the environment is not very suitable for those kinds of players.

The nature of the game is similar to L4D or Lost Planet. A single shitty person will fuck over the team. Games like Halo, Starcraft, TF2. A shitty person just makes it more difficult to win but still relatively easy to win. I think the best way to describe it, one great person in Halo could make up for one bad person. DOTA, every single death will make your opponents more difficult.

 

[Haly]

I was only thinking of pvp actually, but right, there are lots of dicks doing dungeons.

It's a different issue in terms of balance though, they can make newbie dungeons as easy as they want without ruining endgame balance. Dota can't really be made "easier". Without upsetting a lot of veteran players anyway.

The nature of the game is similar to L4D or Lost Planet. A single shitty person will fuck over the team. Games like Halo, Starcraft, TF2. A shitty person just makes it more difficult to win but still relatively easy to win.

Precisely, a single bad player won't make your game a waste of time but in Dota/L4D it will.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

The thing is DOTA is a new game genre, much like MMO and FPS, that you really shouldn't be able to trademark willy-nilly.

A DOTA is a game type that consist of working in teams of five and attacking the opposing team.

Nobody calls HoN or LoL or Demigod "A Dota" :lol This is in no way the same thing as "kleenex" or "kodak." There isn't a widespread, agreed upon term for these types of games, and the most popular isn't "a Dota," it's "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena."

Most people call these games a "DotA Clone," the same as how in the 90s people would say "DOOM clone."

 

[Mudkips]

They've said all four announced mods will be for free, and they will be released unlocked. Specifically one of the very reasons these are released is so that mod makers can easily scrounge assets from them.

Sure. The map will be free to play.
Want to reset your stats? $5.
Want a custom avatar pack? $8.
Want to register a clan? $5.
Want a Battle.net name change? $15.
Want to move your WoW character to a different server? $10, if your server is eligible.
Want to buy an app that lets you monitor the WoW auction house outside of WoW? $10.

Anyone who's seen anything Blizzard has done in the last 6 years knows where it's all headed.

 

[Rubius]

Exactly. Blizzard wants it both ways. It's hypocritical.

We feel DOTA should stay free and open for the community, like it's always been.*

.....

*Anything the community creates for SC2 DOTA is now considered our property. EULA, bitches.


I'd personally rather Valve takes control of it.

From what I heard, Valve dont take control of the game. They give ressource and get a part of the sales. Its up to the devs to do the job. TF 1 was not made by Valve. Tf2 is.

 

[Shrennin]

Valve has to cover their bases so if DOTA is deemed to be of common use then it works for all and if it isn't then Valve has just made sure they can never get sued over the name.

Blizzard had plenty of time to trademark the name and, while I believe they should have the right to the DOTA name more than Valve anyway, it was ultimately up to them to ensure it.

 

[HolyCheck]

The problem is Blizzard's definition of "the community" is their locked-in, tied-down, extras-for-pay, Battle.net 2.0 service.

We're discussing SC2 here really.

So What extras am I paying for? the FREE DOTA mod?

 

[Karram]

Blizzard's executive vice president of game design

What ?? Is that like lead game designer ?

 

[Rubius]

Nobody calls HoN or LoL or Demigod "A Dota" :lol This is in no way the same thing as "kleenex" or "kodak." There isn't a widespread, agreed upon term for these types of games, and the most popular isn't "a Dota," it's "Multiplayer Online Battle Arena."

Most people call these games a "DotA Clone," the same as how in the 90s people would say "DOOM clone."

Everybody I heard said its a Dota clone.
Its like Tower Defence. Come from WC3 too.

 

[shintoki]

Sure. The map will be free to play.
Want to reset your stats? $5.
Want a custom avatar pack? $8.
Want to register a clan? $5.
Want a Battle.net name change? $15.
Want to move your WoW character to a different server? $10, if your server is eligible.
Want to buy an app that lets you monitor the WoW auction house outside of WoW? $10.

Anyone who's seen anything Blizzard has done in the last 6 years knows where it's all headed.

It's kind of disgusting how locked down everything is on the system. It's sounding more like XBL on PC

 

[HolyCheck]

Everybody I heard said its a Dota clone.
Its like Tower Defence. Come from WC3 too.

In further to this, click the online tab, ctrl F Dota.

 

[gillty]

It's kind of disgusting how locked down everything is on the system. It's sounding more like XBL on PC

Delivering the discussion about Battle.net 2.0 is Greg Canessa, a multiplayer specialist deeply rooted into the online community scene. His previous work includes heading up the Xbox Live department over at Microsoft; a position he vacated last year to instead work on the more concentrated and "superior" workings of the upcoming version of Battle.net.

community & xbox live = :lol :lol :lol

 

[Snow]

Sure. The map will be free to play.
Want to reset your stats? $5.
Want a custom avatar pack? $8.
Want to register a clan? $5.
Want a Battle.net name change? $15.
Want to move your WoW character to a different server? $10, if your server is eligible.
Want to buy an app that lets you monitor the WoW auction house outside of WoW? $10.

Anyone who's seen anything Blizzard has done in the last 6 years knows where it's all headed.

SC2 isn't WoW, pretty sure none of those exist in SC2. And I don't see how them spending some time making free mods to promote their editor and have an excuse to make some new assets for mod makers (they're remaking a bunch of war3 heroes for sc2) is a base for the things you're extrapolating.

And again, I don't think Blizzard doesn't want Valve to make a DOTA game or even that they don't want them to use the name. It's just that as part of some small mods to show off their editor and get some extra assets out to mod makers they opted to make as one of their projects pretty much the most obvious mod for a blizzard rts to make. And they probably knew that Valve was making a DotA game seeing how Valve hired Icefrog. They just didn't realize Valve was planning to trademark it, which does mean that Valve is the only one that can use the name. The way trademarks work means that they have to make sure that the trademark remains uniquely identifying for their products for it to remain valid, it doesn't really have anything to do with Valve being assholes or not.

DOTA2 and Blizzard DOTA really aren't equivalent projects, and I think all the 'QQ moar Blizz' is kinda silly over a fairly basic comment over a trademark. I doubt it will end up being a big deal anyway, shouldn't be that hard to just rename the mod to something else.

 

[HolyCheck]

Sure. The map will be free to play.
Want to reset your stats? $5.
Want a custom avatar pack? $8.
Want to register a clan? $5.
Want a Battle.net name change? $15.
Want to move your WoW character to a different server? $10, if your server is eligible.
Want to buy an app that lets you monitor the WoW auction house outside of WoW? $10.

Anyone who's seen anything Blizzard has done in the last 6 years knows where it's all headed.

hey why don't we talk about the DLC on Valve games that are not involved in this at all!

 

[Zzoram]

SC2's custom game hosting system is horribly gimped compared to WC3. They basically set it up so that they can dictate what people play by featuring maps at the top of the list. Also, new maps or even newer versions of popular maps take forever to move up the popularity list, if they ever move up at all. You have to dig 10 pages deep to find a newer version of a map you like sometimes, it's stupid.

 

[EnjoyIncubus]

As someone who has been personally invested in DotA for the past 9 years or so, I think what Valve is doing here is pretty lame.

They are essentially taking a game that is the product of over a decade of development, right down to the actual heroes and items themselves (which were designed, developed, and tested by members of the DotA community over the course of many, many years) and copyrighting it as their own.

There is nothing wrong with Icefrog and Valve wanting to develop their own DotA-like game like the guys from League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth have done, but what they are doing here is nothing more than stealing.

 

[Zzoram]

hey why don't we talk about the DLC on Valve games that are not involved in this at all!

Valve's only microtransaction is to unlock stuff you can unlock for free just by playing a lot. The only exception is a few unique hats which you get for pre-order bonus, and a few rare variants of hats that only come as rare crate drops, but you can always trade in-game items for them so there technically is a way to get them without paying any money.

 

[Won]

hey why don't we talk about the DLC on Valve games that are not involved in this at all!

Yeah, but I don't have a problem with paying for a hat. Hats are awesome and make you feel better. You can't really compare that.

 

[HolyCheck]

edit: bugger it lol, i cbs

 

[slayzz]

As someone who has been personally invested in DotA for the past 9 years or so, I think what Valve is doing here is pretty lame.

They are essentially taking a game that is the product of over a decade of development, right down to the actual heroes and items themselves (which were designed, developed, and tested by members of the DotA community over the course of many, many years) and copyrighting it as their own.

There is nothing wrong with Icefrog and Valve wanting to develop their own DotA-like game like the guys from League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth have done, but what they are doing here is nothing more than stealing.

I agree. People seem to think Icefrog did everything himselft after the others left. Many people from the community contributed to the game.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

As someone who has been personally invested in DotA for the past 9 years or so, I think what Valve is doing here is pretty lame.

They are essentially taking a game that is the product of over a decade of development, right down to the actual heroes and items themselves (which were designed, developed, and tested by members of the DotA community over the course of many, many years) and copyrighting it as their own.

There is nothing wrong with Icefrog and Valve wanting to develop their own DotA-like game like the guys from League of Legends and Heroes of Newerth have done, but what they are doing here is nothing more than stealing.

...

They are trademarking the name dude, most likely to prevent someone else from suing them. And since Icefrog has been maintaining DOTA for a long time now it's safe to say that what you're saying is that he's stealing from himself. I'll let you mull that one over.

Yeah, but I don't have a problem with paying for a hat. Hats are awesome and make you feel better. You can't really compare that.

Devil's advocate time: the only way in which it's not directly comparable is that you personally like one but not the other. They're both examples of optional services being monetised within an online community.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

I agree. People seem to think Icefrog did everything himselft after the others left. Many people from the community contributed to the game.

But everything, even if it was suggested by community members on the forums, was filtered, decided upon, implemented and balanced by Icefrog, just like the TF2 items, which are community created, were filtered, decided upon, implemented and balanced by Valve.

 

[Zzoram]

Devil's advocate time: the only way in which it's not directly comparable is that you personally like one but not the other. They're both examples of optional services being monetised within an online community.

Hats don't do anything. They're purely aesthetic.

Most of the stuff Blizzard sells is also aesthetic, but there are a few services that aren't.

 

[EnjoyIncubus]

They are trademarking the name dude, most likely to prevent someone else from suing them. And since Icefrog has been maintaining DOTA for a long time now it's safe to say that what you're saying is that he's stealing from himself. I'll let you mull that one over.

They are not simply trademarking the name. Do you not understand that they are basically ripping off the work of probably hundreds of people and then making a profit off of it? The heroes, the items, everything. You people are giving Icefrog way too development credit here.

You are clearly ignorant on the matter and your opinion reflects it.

 

[HolyCheck]

Is blizzard looking to trademark the word DoTA aswell? or are they quite happy having it to be used out there, freely?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Are people here really assuming that none of the final game is going to be the product of Valve's creative staff?

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

They're not interested in getting money? Icefrog had no part in the deal for a DOTA to be made for Valve? yeah right, get real, apocalypse now

Neither Eul nor Guinsoo are interested on having dota trademarked and mooching off it. Eul posted about this at the forum where dota was born and Guinsoo position is on that interview.

Finally, calling it Dota and thus requiring trademark to safeguard themselves was a corporate call. Thus far every dota spinoff has respected this - the only guys pulling the douche move of trademarking a household name of community-born games is Valve.

 

[DaBuddaDa]

They are not simply trademarking the name. Do you not understand that they are basically ripping off the work of probably hundreds of people and then making a profit off of it? The heroes, the items, everything.

You are clearly ignorant on the subject on the matter and your opinion reflects it.

90% of those heroes, items, 'everything,' were created and implemented by a small group of changing developers, all who have left other than Icefrog, thus relinquishing any control or say in the matter. The other 10% have been 'fan suggestions,' which, if it weren't for the actual people making the game would amount to nothing more than your average piece of video game fanfic. Those who have their creations actually put into the game should be honored and humbled that their suggestion even made it in the game in the first place, not raging that they aren't getting their due credit.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

They are not simply trademarking the name. Do you not understand that they are basically ripping off the work of probably hundreds of people and then making a profit off of it? The heroes, the items, everything. You people are giving Icefrog way too development credit here.

You are clearly ignorant on the matter and your opinion reflects it.

If you think that's all they're doing then you've obviously never played the original versions of Team Fortress, the mod which spawned Left4Dead, or the student developed Narbacular Drop. Valve is one of the best developers in the world, and you can guarantee that whatever they release will have a level of polish which simply does not exist in the original mod. All of the art will be be new, and they'll continue to improve the game and balance it over years with free content updates until it barely resembles the original DOTA.

You are clearly ignorant on the matter and your opinion reflects it. :lol

 

[EnjoyIncubus]

whatever they release will have a level of polish which simply does not exist in the original mod

Bullshit. DotA is one of the most beautifully balanced and polished mods out there. It's just as good, if not better, than most "professionally" developed game.

they'll continue to improve the game and balance it over years with free content updates

I'm not denying this.

until it barely resembles the original DOTA.

This I don't buy though.

Team Fortress

See, the difference here is that Valve actually hired the people responsible for the mod, instead of simply standing on the shoulders of all the people who helped develop it over the course of many years.

 

[Rubius]

See, the difference here is that Valve actually hired the people responsible for the mod, instead of simply standing on the shoulders of all the people who helped develop it over the course of many years.

Valve gave 45 000$ in royalties to people who created the Polycount weapons. 45 000$ for the 5 chosen person who got there item in the game. Woa

 

[Margalis]

I wonder how people would feel if Blizzard announced they were making Natural Selection 2 and trademarked the name Natural Selection.