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[hyperbertha]

Sure, but that is not that relevant to graphic fidelity like memory bandwidth. You talked about rendering. That's the GPU and memory bandwidth.
Not asset streaming to the memory from the Drive

Graphic fidelity isn't all about resolutions and framerates. Having better assets, textures and more quantity of assets contribute significantly to the picture.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

From the available information, only the PS5 will be doing DMA directly into textures with targetted invalidation of the GPU cache. Anyone that has done any high performance disk io that needs to touch the CPU will realize how massive of an advantage for performance this is. Cutting the CPU completely out of the loop, and hence eliminating such a big bottleneck, might lead to much higher performance increases than the 2x raw speed might lead you to believe. For gaming _experience_, this might mean much more than 16% difference in GPU performance.
I think this specialized hardware and software combo is what makes many devs so excited. From the way Cerny explained it, it will be very simple to use, so I expect most devs will use it and not just first party devs.

Available information, yes, but speculating it's being utilized in XSX is no more a stretch than people speculating PS5 was RDNA2 well before actual confirmation came out (and especially when the Oberon test data came about which kept pointing to an RDNA1 chip, when in actuality that was the Ariel iGPU testing profile).

Sony's given us a lot of info on their SSD but we also know MS have yet to go into their own SSD solution, either. Holding back details on their BCPack usage and implementation is one such thing. And considering that they're also developing XSX with server use in mind, it would be rather silly if they do not have direct DMA customized access by the GPU to their partition of NAND being memory-mapped as a v-cache.

The fact they've even bothered to bring it up as a mention would probably indicate as such to anyone who is assuming the two systems will have roughly the same feature sets, and that would also be particularly useful for 3rd-parties in order to ensure they actually do take advantage of PS5's faster SSD in any meaningful ways if they have the headroom to do so.

Also, again, "devs" = Sony developers; for business reasons you're not going to have major 3rd-party devs come right out doing effectively free PR for PS5 especially if it implies ignoring XSX out of process of omission. And I can easily see why Sony developers are excited for the SSD tech, there's no reason they wouldn't be. But you have to always take these kind of claims with grains of salt.

 

[onQ123]

Sure, but that is not that relevant to graphic fidelity like memory bandwidth. You talked about rendering. That's the GPU and memory bandwidth.
Not asset streaming to the memory from the Drive

So you don't understand that the data is being moved from the SSD to RAM ?

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

So you don't understand that the data is being moved from the SSD to RAM ?

This is what SSDs already do on current-gen consoles and PC. SSDs act as the cold storage, and it's read from the NAND on the cold storage and placed into the available system memory. From there, the data is operated upon by the CPU and GPU as needed.

The "next gen" that graph alludes to is the speed in which the data off NAND is being packaged and moved into system memory, but the technique itself, at least indicated by that same graph, is nothing new. Not necessarily, anyway. And there's ways that interconnect protocols over PCIe 4.0 handle signaling and packaging of data off NAND modules that's fundamentally different to the way volatile memory controllers do the same off main system memory (not to mention the levels of granularity in data reads, writes, and modifies that govern NAND vs. volatile memories).

If either of these systems were using a form of persistent memory, like Optane DC memory, interfaced with a DRAM memory controller, then that would be a lot more in spirit to the "in some ways more like RAM" line in the graph. As is, I mean, yeah, it kinda is in some regards, but in many others it's just fundamentally different and nowhere near that level.

 

[Elenchus]

Cerny said 4GB of compressed data would be sufficient to stream textures behind the player.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/The%20Road%20to%20PS5%2010m8s%20-%2010m30s%20(ph8LyNIT9sg)%202401.mp4

The SSD in the XSX is fast enough to do that according to the released specs.

So the PS5’s SSD does not appear to offer any real or significant advantage. Think it’s time to move on fellas.

 

[hyperbertha]

Cerny said 4GB of compressed data would be sufficient to stream textures behind the player.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/The%20Road%20to%20PS5%2010m8s%20-%2010m30s%20(ph8LyNIT9sg)%202401.mp4

The SSD in the XSX is fast enough to do that according to the released specs.

So the PS5’s SSD does not appear to offer any real or significant advantage. Think it’s time to move on fellas.

He said if you turn around in half a second, you can load 4 GBs. Which means on Xbox that would be 2 Gbs. Do you have problems with your english?

 

[Bryank75]

Cerny said 4GB of compressed data would be sufficient to stream textures behind the player.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/The%20Road%20to%20PS5%2010m8s%20-%2010m30s%20(ph8LyNIT9sg)%202401.mp4

The SSD in the XSX is fast enough to do that according to the released specs.

So the PS5’s SSD does not appear to offer any real or significant advantage. Think it’s time to move on fellas.

Dunno if 12 tflops is enough to make Bleeding Edge a good game.... or whatever else they have in the pipeline.
Heard Halo Infinite is in a state too.

I mean this 12 channel SSD tech works on PS5 cause it is loading great games faster.... bit of a waste on Xbox.

 

[prinz_valium]

That faster memory is far offset by PS5's faster GPU clock though and XSX needs a wider bus to fill those CUs. Considering those CUs, XSX bus actually needs to be wider if it wanted to match what PS5's got.

Of course you need more memory bandwidth with a stronger GPU.
They're a tandem in rendering. That's the point and GPU 1*1

But high frequency or wide design does not matter in that regard.

 

[Elenchus]

Dunno if 12 tflops is enough to make Bleeding Edge a good game.... or whatever else they have in the pipeline.
Heard Halo Infinite is in a state too.

I mean this 12 channel SSD tech works on PS5 cause it is loading great games faster.... bit of a waste on Xbox.

Not sure what you are arguing here or how it relates to my post.

Is English your first language?

 

[SleepDoctor]

You think Xbox is going to be using all 12 tflops all the time? Particularly for games like Bleeding Edge....

Don't deflect.

This "my dad can beat up your dad" shit has been the meta here since March 18th. It was funny at first but we're way past that now

 

[Bryank75]

Not sure what you are arguing here or how it relates to my post.

Is English your first language?

Is it yours?

 

[Elenchus]

He said if you turn around in half a second, you can load 4 GBs. Which means on Xbox that would be 2 Gbs. Do you have problems with your english?

He said 4GB was sufficient for next gen. He didn’t attach any conditions to the statement.

 

[Hobbygaming]

Cerny said 4GB of compressed data would be sufficient to stream textures behind the player.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/The%20Road%20to%20PS5%2010m8s%20-%2010m30s%20(ph8LyNIT9sg)%202401.mp4

The SSD in the XSX is fast enough to do that according to the released specs.

So the PS5’s SSD does not appear to offer any real or significant advantage. Think it’s time to move on fellas.

So PS5 can theoretically stream better quality textures since it can do 8-9 GBs compressed

 

[prinz_valium]

So you don't understand that the data is being moved from the SSD to RAM ?

Of course it does. Like it does since decades.
Yet you can play a beautiful looking game with great textures in 4k 120pfs on a 2080TI SLI with a fucking 5200RPM HDD

The SSD will not change that
Getting Assets faster into your RAM will not increase your graphic rendering performance.

 

[Elenchus]

Is it yours?

Yes. What does Halo have to do with anything I wrote?

 

[hyperbertha]

He said 4GB was sufficient for next gen. He didn’t attach any conditions to the statement.

He said you can load 4GB in half a second. That means Xbox can load 2 GB in half a second.

 

[Bryank75]

Yes. What does Halo have to do with anything I wrote?

I will translate for you.... XBox games are terrible. No amount of power will make them any better. Have fun with the spec sheet!

A link to Xbox's latest gaming triumph!

Bleeding Edge

From the studio behind DmC: Devil May Cry and Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice comes Bleeding Edge, a fast and frenetic 4v4 team brawler where every fighter comes mechanically enhanced for mayhem! Choose your fighter from a diverse cast of colorful characters from the edges of society: burn rubber...

www.metacritic.com

 

[onQ123]

This is what SSDs already do on current-gen consoles and PC. SSDs act as the cold storage, and it's read from the NAND on the cold storage and placed into the available system memory. From there, the data is operated upon by the CPU and GPU as needed.

The "next gen" that graph alludes to is the speed in which the data off NAND is being packaged and moved into system memory, but the technique itself, at least indicated by that same graph, is nothing new. Not necessarily, anyway. And there's ways that interconnect protocols over PCIe 4.0 handle signaling and packaging of data off NAND modules that's fundamentally different to the way volatile memory controllers do the same off main system memory (not to mention the levels of granularity in data reads, writes, and modifies that govern NAND vs. volatile memories).

If either of these systems were using a form of persistent memory, like Optane DC memory, interfaced with a DRAM memory controller, then that would be a lot more in spirit to the "in some ways more like RAM" line in the graph. As is, I mean, yeah, it kinda is in some regards, but in many others it's just fundamentally different and nowhere near that level.

I was replying to someone who said the speed of the SSD had nothing to do with graphics.


But it does because instead of the RAM holding the data for at least 30 seconds of game play it's able to use that same amount of RAM for what's needed in the next second instead of wasting RAM on what might be needed in the next 30 or so seconds. you can load in higher quality assets.

 

[Elenchus]

So PS5 can theoretically stream better quality textures since it can do 8-9 GBs compressed

Not sure what you mean by better quality. With a weaker GPU PS5’s games are likely to run in a lower resolution. Could be more textures certainly.

 

[Elenchus]

I will translate for you.... XBox games are terrible. No amount of power will make them any better. Have fun with the spec sheet!

A link to Xbox's latest gaming triumph!

Bleeding Edge

From the studio behind DmC: Devil May Cry and Hellblade: Senua’s Sacrifice comes Bleeding Edge, a fast and frenetic 4v4 team brawler where every fighter comes mechanically enhanced for mayhem! Choose your fighter from a diverse cast of colorful characters from the edges of society: burn rubber...

www.metacritic.com

Oh. So it has nothing to do with what I wrote and is just an ad hominem attack.

Ok. That’s all you had to say.

Thanks for posting.

 

[Bryank75]

Oh. So it has nothing to do with what I wrote and is just an ad hominem attack.

Ok. That’s all you had to say.

Thanks for posting.

I love console wars... are you having fun?

 

[SleepDoctor]

Oh. So it has nothing to do with what I wrote and is just an ad hominem attack.

Ok. That’s all you had to say.

Thanks for posting.

Can't take him seriously. He made a whole thread with a wall of text crying over Ps games going to pc. Fanboys are bad but the ps ones made their bed shitting on everything xbox and ramping it up harder after the reveal thinking Sony would do 13 or even 15 tf ps5.

 

[Psykodad]

I haven't had time to keep up with this crap...

Can someone point me to a reliable source about Sony having heating issues?

Not a GAF post or opinion, but an actual hands on technical article?

I can't find one?

There isn't.

Just a couple of xbox fans claiming it's an issue.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

I was replying to someone who said the speed of the SSD had nothing to do with graphics.


But it does because instead of the RAM holding the data for at least 30 seconds of game play it's able to use that same amount of RAM for what's needed in the next second instead of wasting RAM on what might be needed in the next 30 or so seconds. you can load in higher quality assets.

That's just it tho; for graphical assets that need a lot of fast-speed modification (enough so to appear fluid and seamless), that are in direct proximity to the player or not that far off from where they are, and will need calculations at the bit and byte level with lots of dynamic calculations changing the visual output of those graphics in real-time, suddenly the use-cases for the SSDs in that regard get cut down significantly.

Earlier I gave an example of where you can likely see those benefits employed with texture streaming: static textures on stationary objects like statues populating a game environment (or a wall), that aren't expected to be modified very frequently and don't need any bit or byte addressability. In that type of use-case example even compressed data can be very useful because it only needs to be read. As long as the compression doesn't kill the asset quality (meaning it doesn't need to be decompressed), then you're set. Which is one area where I can see PS5 having the advantage for texture streaming, because it's raw speed is over 2x faster than XSX's, and even the compressed speed is about 1.8x faster.

An interesting factor in that regard is the compression with Kracken; it might be up to 22 GB/s but that is with extremely specific data that compresses that well (i.e doesn't see any notable asset reduction). That could provide over 3x the compression benefit over the 6 GB/s figure MS gave for theirs tho we don't really know the upper limit on MS's solution either to be perfectly fair.

 

[Lukin1978]

Do you guys own shares in Microsoft or Sony? This console war shit is embarrassing.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Dunno if 12 tflops is enough to make Bleeding Edge a good game.... or whatever else they have in the pipeline.
Heard Halo Infinite is in a state too.

I mean this 12 channel SSD tech works on PS5 cause it is loading great games faster.... bit of a waste on Xbox.

Jesus you honestly deserved to go on my Ignore list. Have fun there

 

[onQ123]

Of course it does. Like it does since decades.
Yet you can play a beautiful looking game with great textures in 4k 120pfs on a 2080TI SLI with a fucking 5200RPM HDD

The SSD will not change that
Getting Assets faster into your RAM will not increase your graphic rendering performance.

Yes it will SMH you really don't understand what is going on if you say that.


With a slow HDD the game has to load everything it needs for a large section of gameplay but with this 5.5GB/s SSD & I/O they will fill that RAM with what's needed for about 1 second of game play . like not even having the scene behind you in memory because it's fast enough to load it up as you turn around.


You telling me that you don't think 4GB of assets for 1 second of gameplay is going to look better than 4GB of assets that's needed for the next 30 seconds of game play?

 

[Elenchus]

I love console wars... are you having fun?

This is a specs thread. Do you think a discussion of the specs requires console wars?

Can't take him seriously. He made a whole thread with a wall of text crying over Ps games going to pc. Fanboys are bad but the ps ones made their bed shitting on everything xbox and ramping it up harder after the reveal thinking Sony would do 13 or even 15 tf ps5.

Didn’t mean to upset him or anyone else. I wish Sony would have gone with 15tfs! That would’ve been awesome!

 

[Captain Hero]

Do you guys own shares in Microsoft or Sony? This console war shit is embarrassing.

Some replies is the real war shit BUT the thread and the video itself is enjoyable and have rich information.. I really enjoyed it

thanks OP for sharing this

 

[SleepDoctor]

This is a specs thread. Do you think a discussion of the specs requires console wars?


Didn’t mean to upset him or anyone else. I wish Sony would have gone with 15tfs! That would’ve been awesome!

It doesn't matter. 15 would have been good but like ive said before. With 1.84 on Ps4 we got great games. 9tf boosted or not, there will be amazing games.

Fanboys just can't cope with a "loss" lol.

 

[Bryank75]

This is a specs thread. Do you think a discussion of the specs requires console wars?


Didn’t mean to upset him or anyone else. I wish Sony would have gone with 15tfs! That would’ve been awesome!

Every thread with a positive outlook on the PS5 gets this influx of 'shitposts' from XBox guys... so you know, you're welcome!

Maybe you guys should watch the video that the thread is about!

 

[CJY]

I was replying to someone who said the speed of the SSD had nothing to do with graphics.


But it does because instead of the RAM holding the data for at least 30 seconds of game play it's able to use that same amount of RAM for what's needed in the next second instead of wasting RAM on what might be needed in the next 30 or so seconds. you can load in higher quality assets.

So PS4 has 8GB, PS5 has 16GB and let's say all of it was available for games.

PS4 is holding 30 seconds worth of assets in memory, while PS5 is holding 1 second. The effective usable RAM in second-to-second gameplay on PS4 is just that 8GB, with maybe 50-500MB of texture swapping, while PS5 can refresh it's whole memory every second or thereabouts, so for that same 30-second segment of gameplay, you could in theory have used 480GB of different assets (30sec*16GB).

I think what some people are arguing is that the GPU is essential in rendering those assets, and therefore XSX is better because there's a better GPU. They seem to be literally missing the point very consistently and not being able to make the mental leap of More data = more varied and potentially more interesting graphics, and that this is what is meant by the SSD improving graphics, not that the SSD will literally do the work of the GPU.

I dunno, I'm just surprised some people won't or can't get this and keep reverting back to talking about the GPU solely.

 

[Sosokrates]

Streaming in assets like more textures and unique objects is game changing. It should allow open world games to look much less repetitive looking.

In isolation it wouldn't be (like my ps4 example)
And I want examples of what 9gb/s vs 4.8gb/s streaming looks like.

 

[martino]

Not sure what you mean by better quality. With a weaker GPU PS5’s games are likely to run in a lower resolution. Could be more textures certainly.

and what rendering resolution do to texture details ?

 

[Sosokrates]

Cerny said 4GB of compressed data would be sufficient to stream textures behind the player.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/The%20Road%20to%20PS5%2010m8s%20-%2010m30s%20(ph8LyNIT9sg)%202401.mp4

The SSD in the XSX is fast enough to do that according to the released specs.

So the PS5’s SSD does not appear to offer any real or significant advantage. Think it’s time to move on fellas.

Cerny said 4gb of compressed for as long as it. Take to turn a player around, he thinks 0.5 seconds.
So XsX would do 2.4gb of compressed data per 0.5 seconds.

 

[prinz_valium]

Yes it will SMH you really don't understand what is going on if you say that.


With a slow HDD the game has to load everything it needs for a large section of gameplay but with this 5.5GB/s SSD & I/O they will fill that RAM with what's needed for about 1 second of game play . like not even having the scene behind you in memory because it's fast enough to load it up as you turn around.


You telling me that you don't think 4GB of assets for 1 second of gameplay is going to look better than 4GB of assets that's needed for the next 30 seconds of game play?

What are you talking about?
Looking better? No of course not.
Getting loaded faster? Of course, yes.

Asset streaming and graphic rendering are 2 different disciplines.
They have some overlap in some instances, but they're fundamentally different.
The games can get better, but not the graphics. Just hook up a 10GB/s sever farm PCIe SSD to a low end GPU.
How good do you think that game will look?

 

[Trainsmove]

In isolation it wouldn't be (like my ps4 example)
And I want examples of what 9gb/s vs 4.8gb/s streaming looks like.

If the GPU cannot render it what's the point?
Yes the SSD is the fastest in the world but the GPU/ memory BUS is at a 5700xt level. Ms knows that, where the GPU/CPU can read much faster than the SSD can from ram(DDR6).

 

[Deeper Underground]

Cerny said 4GB of compressed data would be sufficient to stream textures behind the player.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/The%20Road%20to%20PS5%2010m8s%20-%2010m30s%20(ph8LyNIT9sg)%202401.mp4

The SSD in the XSX is fast enough to do that according to the released specs.

So the PS5’s SSD does not appear to offer any real or significant advantage. Think it’s time to move on fellas.

lol This is one of the worst cases of selective listening I’ve seen in this thread so far.

 

[SonGoku]

Weird he theorizes PS5/SEX use 7nm+ (EUV) based on SRAM used in the IO which is listed as 7nm+ part on Synopsis site
This contradicts the (official?) info we have on consoles using enhanced/pro nodes which are still DUV only

If the GPU cannot render it what's the point?
Yes the SSD is the fastest in the world but the GPU/ memory BUS is at a 5700xt level. Ms knows that, where the GPU/CPU can read much faster than the SSD can from ram(DDR6).

Do you really think they'd go out their way to not only use a custom 5.5GB/s SSD but to extensively customize the IO to output compressed data in excess of 9GB/s if the GPU couldn't keep up?

PS: The PS5 GPU is roughly on par with a RTX2080

 

[Tumle]

Yes.Read my post above as to why.

Nobody should listen to you on this subject, ever!
You are as transparent as a block of lead, with your agenda..

if you can’t handle that the ps5 is closer to 10.28 than it is to 9.2 TF.. you have some serious problems..

 

[Hawking Radiation]

Really? Jason Schreier ? Same guy who said Project Scarlet is behind schedule(before TGA) and is being rushed, while PS5 is ready.

That was Tom Warren.
If you're going to argue shit atleast get your facts right, jesus

 

[Entroyp]

Cerny said 4GB of compressed data would be sufficient to stream textures behind the player.

https://ytcutter.com/tmp/The%20Road%20to%20PS5%2010m8s%20-%2010m30s%20(ph8LyNIT9sg)%202401.mp4

The SSD in the XSX is fast enough to do that according to the released specs.

So the PS5’s SSD does not appear to offer any real or significant advantage. Think it’s time to move on fellas.

People are so fixated in both numbers and just don’t want to understand there’s way more that that for the PS5. Once they do other people will move on.

 

[Spreewaldgurke]

just asked him

 

[FranXico]

just asked him

To be fair, would you expect him to publicly say "getting it to work correctly is a pain in the arse" if that was the case?

 

[Rick Dangerous]

I had to stop the video : the voice in this video is totally unbearable. Wanted to punch him.. awful really.

 

[Kagero]

why so certain, you a EEing hardware designer?


I am glad the consoles are different and the end results are in doubt. But then again, i am not try to spin a narrative or work as an unpaid salesman for a trillion dollar corporation.

Naw I didn’t see your comment as a spin. It’s a plausible(unlikely) outcome. The other guys just didn’t like what you had to say. They are harbouring a lot of pain from the last seven years. Just understand that.

 

[CJY]

I had to stop the vidéo : thé voici in this vidéo is totally unbearable. Wanted to punch him.. awful really.

you could turn off the sound and rad the transcript or turn on captions?

 

[fallingdove]

It's not complicated. Devs are allowed to push the XSX to the max of 12tf at all times, not just the temporary Michael Moments because it has far more CU's at far lower clocks to prevent heating issues. 10.2tf is the ceiling for the PS5,however given the high clock speeds, the boost mode is only for the Michael Bay type moments. Devs can not push the PS5 in boost mode at sustained clocks or it would have significant heathing issues. Hence, why there is variable clocks. I suspect PS5 will run in the 9.2tf neighborhood most of the time.

XSX's higher CU counts at lower clocks allows for sustained performance, where as a much lower CU count at significantly higher clocks creates heating issues, hence the need for variable clocks/boost mode. PS5 can only run in the high boost mode reaching the max of 10.2tf only temporarily during the most stressing points in games

You guys need new bullet points, the 9.2TF nonsense is old.

Mark Cerny said that variability at most would be 1-2%, not 10%. So we are talking 10TF lows and 10.3TF highs.

 

[onQ123]

So PS4 has 8GB, PS5 has 16GB and let's say all of it was available for games.

PS4 is holding 30 seconds worth of assets in memory, while PS5 is holding 1 second. The effective usable RAM in second-to-second gameplay on PS4 is just that 8GB, with maybe 50-500MB of texture swapping, while PS5 can refresh it's whole memory every second or thereabouts, so for that same 30-second segment of gameplay, you could in theory have used 480GB of different assets (30sec*16GB).

I think what some people are arguing is that the GPU is essential in rendering those assets, and therefore XSX is better because there's a better GPU. They seem to be literally missing the point very consistently and not being able to make the mental leap of More data = more varied and potentially more interesting graphics, and that this is what is meant by the SSD improving graphics, not that the SSD will literally do the work of the GPU.

I dunno, I'm just surprised some people won't or can't get this and keep reverting back to talking about the GPU solely.

Not exactly because it can't fill the full 16GB in 1 second but the point is that most of what is in the 16GB of RAM is for the gameplay that's happening in the next second or so instead of filling it with what might be needed for a large section of game play because with the slow HDD you can't just grab what you need as it's happening on screen but with the SSD you can.

 

[CJY]

Not exactly because it can't fill the full 16GB in 1 second but the point is that most of what is in the 16GB of RAM is for the gameplay that's happening in the next second or so instead of filling it with what might be needed for a large section of game play because with the slow HDD you can't just grab what you need as it's happening on screen but with the SSD you can.

The max throughput of the IO is 22GB/s though, in theory, in an ideal scenario you could actually fill up the 16GB in 1 second.