jimmypython
Member
Exactly! Torch was such an essential item in MH3 but it became pointless in MHP3rd (PSP) and MH3U (3DS). This makes sense since these portable systems are significantly less powerful.
the Dark Souls 2 mess is just frustrating.
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Dark Souls 2 Lighting changes/Downgrade
- Thread starter Moral Panic
- Start date
Exactly! Torch was such an essential item in MH3 but it became pointless in MHP3rd (PSP) and MH3U (3DS). This makes sense since these portable systems are significantly less powerful.
the Dark Souls 2 mess is just frustrating.
Wanting better lighting because the game had been advertised with better lighting has become a "particular bias cultivated by the PR wing of a publisher"?
XANDER CAGE
Member
How about we judge games on what works and what doesn't work, instead of ignoring one or the other?
Not having the OG lighting doesn't make DS2 worthless trash, but there is a huge sconce-shaped hole in the game that gutting the lighting system has left. A previously touted feature is gone, seemingly rather hastily, because every part of it apart from the lighting is still there, front and center. The first tutorial stone in the game tells you how to use the torch, and not far after that one another tells you how to light sconces.
There are vestiges of a missing, central gameplay idea littered all the way through the game. You're asking people to completely ignore this because some other, totally unrelated things are good. If it doesn't bother you, that's totally fine, and I'm still enjoying the game sans original lighting - but I'm sure as hell not going to pretend the whole thing isn't really weird.
zephervack
Member
When I said "the missing lightning" I meant stuff like the torches and the ambient lightning they produce which is missing on the columns in this GIF:
But you are right, the lighting changes completely kill the mood and atmosphere they achieved in the Demo.
Look at the ground in those GIFs, the orange casted light is completely missing from the Retail, and thats just a small example of all the stuff they took out for some reason.
KennyLinder
Member
If all these previews from before talked about (and there will be a certain amount of bullshit, but lets go on anyway) areas of the game which would be pitch black or impossible to navigate without a torch... I wonder if during focus testing it came out that people are finding the game too hard to have to worry about having a shield to guard enemies, fight enemies, and also switch the torchlight in and out all of the time.
It wouldn't surprise me if they came to this conclusion and decided to remove the lighting from the game completely.
It wouldn't surprise me if they came to this conclusion and decided to remove the lighting from the game completely.
Yes. The publisher chose to release those materials and builds, and games often change in development. That was a risk the publisher took when advertising the game, with the intent of trying to get you to buy it, and they fucked up, obviously.
However as an individual you're within your own rights to realize that getting you to buy the game is the role of PR and the publisher, and you can choose not to pay attention to it and let it wreak havoc with your expectations for the game.
For me, my expectation was that it was going to be a sequel to Dark Souls, a game I like. That's pretty much the extent of which I allowed the game's pre-release materials to influence my opinion of the game.
You seem to be ignoring my point that lots of things didn't work in previous games, yet nobody judged those games on that. Probably because they didn't know the full extent of what those things were supposed to be.
SilverBullet
Member
That's what I think too... see my post above.
Confidence Man
Member
That particular scene just looks so plain and boring. There isn't any lighting at all besides the lightning flashes and the stupid light ball your character emits. At least leave the torches for a little ambience.
The hell is this? It's our fault for looking at previews and excepting it to look like that in retail?
zephervack
Member
The more I look at the GIFs the more I realize the demo is just COMPLETELY different from the retail, its just too different, look at the steps,
Demo they start with one black block followed by 2 grey blocks.
Retail they are all grey.
Its almost as if the demo was made by an artist wanting tons of contrast and then the retail was done by someone else without any artistic vision.
Demo they start with one black block followed by 2 grey blocks.
Retail they are all grey.
Its almost as if the demo was made by an artist wanting tons of contrast and then the retail was done by someone else without any artistic vision.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Man from reading this thread and DF i am so glad i hold off buying this game .
Will still get the PS4 version if they make one .
Still losing the lighting stuff suck and if frame that bad it would make me feel sick as i am getting more sensitive to frame rates now .
Will still get the PS4 version if they make one .
Still losing the lighting stuff suck and if frame that bad it would make me feel sick as i am getting more sensitive to frame rates now .
oh, fuck this
I'm just hoping against hope the PC version looks better. It sounds terrible - and, don't get me wrong, I'm avoiding hyperbole. I'm sure there's a damn good game in there that deserves to be played and enjoyed... but those changes (downgrades) seem to seem to suck the entire atmosphere out of that game.
So uh, From Software doesn't have anything to say about this?
I hate the silent treatment bullshit, especially after talking up the new lighting system so much! It really is reprehensible...
The old lighting system really did create some amazing looking scenes/atmosphere. Now all the indoor scenes are just flat.
I hate the silent treatment bullshit, especially after talking up the new lighting system so much! It really is reprehensible...
The old lighting system really did create some amazing looking scenes/atmosphere. Now all the indoor scenes are just flat.
Have people from TwitterGAF tried to tweet FROM about this? Maybe they're not twitter. Tried any other means of communication. I mean, the game is out, there shouldn't be anything to cover up anymore; the truth is out, and the game is severly downgraded. Not only lighting, but also geometry, and possibly simpler materials. They should be able to do some kind of comment.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
Reviewers simply don't want any backlash from fanboys nor publishers. It affects their earnings.Fans with pitchforks. It's pretty common. I might grab mine once I've had the chance to play the game, actually.
What's funny is the media reviewers have actually been exposed to more pre-release gameplay footage than the rest of us. In fact, they've probably spent more time playing the pre-release game than the rest of us. If truly egregious, final release-build differences should stand out to them quite a bit.
I'm starting to think that the downgrade, while frustrating, might not actually ruin the game. We'll see!
I don't preorder games, but expectations none the less are created/affected by pre-release materials. Look at all the people buying the PC version without actually knowing how it looks or performs.
But you're right in one thing: I don't care about reviews at all because since reviewers depend on good relationships with publishers to make a living their opinions are severely compromised. Just look at practically every AAA game released in the past few years. 9s and 10s given out as easily as candy. Even if the reviewer notes a flaw in the game they'll still give the game a 10.
I'd rather see the retail game being played by an actual consumer. This is what happened in this case and the reason I'm not giving FROM any money (until it costs $10 or less, that is xD).
But this is not only about pre-release materials, but post-release materials as well. Look at the Dark Souls 2 Steam page:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/236430/
The trailer promoting the game is using pre-downgrade footage. People watch it and get pumped. Then they read reviews and none of them talk about how the real game looks nothing like that or how about performance is actually poor. The player is left with incorrect information on which he bases he's purchase decision.
It's shameless deception, plain and simple.
So, ignorance is a bliss? No wonder publishers keep getting away with this.
PetriP-TNT
Member
I posted "Y did u down grade ligthning it sux nao" to @namco and @namcobandaiuk and now we'll just have to wait.
Specifically to the hallway leading to mirror knight, didn't someone say that the candles/torches would react to online players, and when people die in that boss, more would be lit, or something along those lines? I don't think I dreamt that up, but I'm not sure they were talking about the hallway.
Has anyone tested this out now that the game is actually out and online play is possible since the servers are up (assuming they are up)? It wouldn't make a huge difference, but it would be something.
Either way, it would be nice to hear some official info on this stuff, or even some nugget from ENB.
Fighting the good fight I see! I'm sure they switch it right back after that. ;p
Wait, why do laws against false advertising exist then? The job of PR people is to get you to buy the game without using any deception. One has to base his expectations, as realistic as they may be, on something: a black screen with just a title until release wouldn't do the job. The fact we need to see something to decide if we want to buy a game or not, it's multimedia stuff we're buying after all, doesn't imply publishers are free to deceive us.
I'm not really affected by this, as I'm still trying to finish good old Demon's Souls, so it'll be a long time before (and if) I get to play this baby, but it still irks me that publishers don't get it that fans don't want to be deceived and keep taking us for stupids.
They didn't take the lighting out. It is all there the only thing screwed up is the brightness setting screen. It has you cranking the brightness far too high. I turned it one notch down from the default position and I have absolutely needed to use the torch as originally designed.
zephervack
Member
That would be awesome, but im not holding my breath.
But forget the light. Look at the blocks that make up the steps
Demo they start with one black block followed by 2 grey blocks.
Retail they are all grey.
Its almost as if the demo was made by an artist wanting tons of contrast and then the retail was done by someone else without any artistic vision.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Screens or didn't happen.
gamerforever
Banned
Mildy hilarious if this is true - can believe it a little!
You're over-thinking it. Reviewers often purposefully avoid preview footage of a game when they know they're going to review it. The bigger sites even have different staff to review and preview games, keeping them completely separate.
If you want coverage of the downgrade in the media it should be in the form of an editorial. Most reviews cover products as they exist, not as they were promoted.
You can turn down the brightness all you want, but the game is still going to look flat.
The issue has to do with how many atmospheric effects were yanked out at the last second.
D
Deleted member 10571
Unconfirmed Member
The more I look at them, the more I think they have been showing off the PC version up until Janurary. We have seen is confirmation from a Namco PR rep that all of that demo/trailer footage shown with the different lighting is from the PC version.
The writer does concede that it was an off-hand conversation, so don't take it as gospel http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=103960797&postcount=520
The previous demos/trailers being the PC version is literally the only plausible explanation at this point. Namco shows off a demo and trailer with specular highlights, high-res textures, normal mapping, silky frame rate (60FPS in the trailer), awesome lighting, darkness mechanic, and the console version ships with literally none of those graphical features and frame rate issues.
"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
PetriP-TNT
Member
TBH FROM probably did that just before pressing "compile" for the last build JUST to annoy people to show how hardcore Dark Souls can be. You can buy the "set gl_real_lightning 1" DLC later don't worry.
Do you want to consume and enjoy games based on what they actually are and what other people who play games think they are, or based on the publisher's carefully crafted idea of what they think they should be? It's this latter idea that is actually destroying games, in fact. I strongly believe this.
If you've been consuming games in the former way long enough, it's hard not to see a lot of this stuff as chaff. You know what the general publisher reaction to this sort of outrage is? It's not release less materials, it's make the game more like how we advertised it, at any cost. It's the tail wagging the dog.
Metalingus5150
Member
It's not.
jim2point0
Banned
There are a lot of little differences like that. Obviously they're going to tweak the assets here and there but some places in the demo\retail look like they were design by completely different people. Take a look at this really shitty image comparison:
The pillars on the right are completely different. Why would they change that? Seems to me like the designer for the retail version was lazily attempting to emulate the area with less attention to detail. I doubt the pillars in the demo were crushing performance....
Oh. So we only need to turn down the brightness to get the same lighting from the demo?
Problem solved! /thread
All I know is that my screen looks more like the prerelease screens than the posts from streems and the frequent need for torches is in tact in my game with the brightness set properly instead of how the game tells you to set it (a problem that other games have had such as RE6). I need a torch in a good chunk of the indoor environments to see more than a foot or two.
I am just saying that it is my experience and I think the need for the torch adds a lot to the gameplay and that it might be worth trying to see if you get similar results. I really don't have anything to prove as I don't care about the integrity of the game or how it is viewed I just think that it is a better game if you don't wash the image out by cranking up the brightness like the game tells you to.
Serious question, have you tried it? Because it looks nothing like the washed out images people are posting.
zephervack
Member
Grief.exe
I hope you are right, im between bargaining and depression stage.
I'll never reach acceptance.
Oh god
UnrealEck
Member
Laws against false advertising exist so you don't try to use a product in a way that causes you to be injured or malnourished. That argument unfortunately breaks down or is hard to enforce when you're talking about something fairly subjective, like a piece of entertainment.
Ideally yes. Realistically, no.
zephervack
Member
BINGO, im almos 100% sure the Demo and Retail are completely different projects worked on with different budgets and objectives in mind, YOU ARE COMPLETELY right in thinking that the Retail is just a recreation of the Demo, im gonna go so far as to say they are either completely different engines or at the very least, the retail has a lot of the modules turned off.
April 25.
I am not saying there hasn't been any downgrade but my game looks far more like the top image as far as the lighting and visual tone. The second image looks terrible.
Maybe I will try and take a shitty off screen picture to show what I am talking about.
zephervack
Member
Put your money where your mouth is, go to that area and take a picture, even with your phone, it doesnt matter. We will easily see the geometry and lightning.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
What I want is developers to stop lying shamelessly to the consumers. It's that simple.
It's easy to blame all of this on Namco but it's not like FROM had nothing to do with the whole mess. It's they who designed the game with the pitch-black areas. The whole brightening of them actually sounds like executive meddling based on feedback from focus groups.
Demo they start with one black block followed by 2 grey blocks.
Retail they are all grey.
Its almost as if the demo was made by an artist wanting tons of contrast and then the retail was done by someone else without any artistic vision.
Well sure, geometry and material changes happen. I think that's from the TGS demo few months back, that build already had different doorways and textures comparing to the earlier demos, but I don't think anyone noticed because the lighting was still there, taking the spotlight.
Personally I'm not too upset about that part, because that's just the kind of thing that happens. Assets change, materials change, geometry changes.
Metroid-Squadron
Banned
In this case, all for the worse.
I really don't appreciate the hostility, I am not trying to defend the game. Like I said I don't really care about proving anything. I am just suggesting that for those who have the game they might want to try it and see if they have a better experience but I might try to get a picture anyways.
I am trying to be helpful, not get into an argument that I am not invested in.
/drumhit