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David Jaffe: Herman Hulst pushed for playstation's Japan Studios closure.

ulantan

Member
I won't bother to quote each of you.
I'll just say this: Japan Studio wasn't expensive to mantain. Wages are much lower in Japan, and I can assure you that a studio like Firesprite, based in the UK, is much much more costly.
And what are the results? Fucking Horizon VR.
It was thier biggest studio and they made 2 knacks in a row the only person who played that was dunkey. Last guardian took 10 years. As much as I love gravity rush and locoroco neither of those games were successful. On that note I hope asobi revisit gravity rush when the anime comes out.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
Man, you guys should really stop giving Jaffe some of your attention
Why?

Because he speaks his mind about Sony? Mind you, this can be good or bad thoughts or recollections about Sony. But yet people just focus on the bad things he says. Also he has an appreciation for Xbox, which seems to be blasphemous to none other than fanboys. But yet people refuse to take into account his criticisms of Xbox, specifically in their management. You are attempting to cancel him because he dares to step outside of the echo chamber you incubate yourself in.

Why try to push your intentions on others instead of letting everyone decide for themselves what information they'd like to partake in?

The rah rah rally to the defense of your favorite plastic box bullshit is infuriating to me.
 

Masterri

Member
It was thier biggest studio and they made 2 knacks in a row the only person who played that was dunkey. Last guardian took 10 years. As much as I love gravity rush and locoroco neither of those games were successful. On that note I hope asobi revisit gravity rush when the anime comes out.
Anime? I thought it was going to be a live action.
 
I'm saying they could have kept Japan Studio irregardless of what their games sold or not, because it was a cheap, good studio and the PS5 is a resounding success. There was no need to cut out the fat.
Why is it so hard to understand?
Why do you only care about the sales?

Again, you think they were cheap, but you have no idea how much they actually costs and it was clearly not cheap enough to keep sinking the money into it.

This is people's careers and livelihoods, not a charity for you.
 

Hugare

Member
Why?

Because he speaks his mind about Sony? Mind you, this can be good or bad thoughts or recollections about Sony. But yet people just focus on the bad things he says. Also he has an appreciation for Xbox, which seems to be blasphemous to none other than fanboys. But yet people refuse to take into account his criticisms of Xbox, specifically in their management. You are attempting to cancel him because he dares to step outside of the echo chamber you incubate yourself in.

Why try to push your intentions on others instead of letting everyone decide for themselves what information they'd like to partake in?

The rah rah rally to the defense of your favorite plastic box bullshit is infuriating to me.
Imagine thinking that anyone who doesnt like this clout chaser is a Sony fanboy

Check my post history, see if I'm a Sony fanboy

Dude havent been part of the industry for decades now and knows shit about how Sony operates today from the inside, only some shit gossip.

His HUGE, SAD AND DISRESPECTFUL news about Sony from just a few days ago turned out to be a producer being fired, ffs

He is an old man yelling at clouds 'cause he wants your clicks for some money.

People only give him a platform here 'cause he is probably the only "celebrity" that still posts at GAF and Ree hates him
 

kaizenkko

Member
I won't bother to quote each of you.
I'll just say this: Japan Studio wasn't expensive to mantain. Wages are much lower in Japan, and I can assure you that a studio like Firesprite, based in the UK, is much much more costly.
And what are the results? Fucking Horizon VR
lol
Do you realise Sony have acquired Firesprite only in 2021? They are developing some games, just after a proper release we are be able to judge them.

Japan Studios, by the other hand, don't have make NOTHING relevant in years. Their best projects was third-party games like Bloodborne, and for that Sony don't need Japan Studios.

I really don't understand the complaints about and don't see how Japan Studios would aggregate on Playstation portfolio these days.
 

Varteras

Gold Member
Ah yes. Japan Studio. The greatest underachieving studio who spent decades riding on supposed potential and the accomplishments of others. There is a reason why only Asobi is what's left of that mess.

You're still getting those quirky Japanese games. Asobi is the one making them. Which is wild to me how many people continue to shake their fists in outrage. You're willfully ignoring the fact that the part of Japan Studio that succeeded in that, where the rest failed, was kept alive.
 

ulantan

Member
Ah yes. Japan Studio. The greatest underachieving studio who spent decades riding on supposed potential and the accomplishments of others. There is a reason why only Asobi is what's left of that mess.

You're still getting those quirky Japanese games. Asobi is the one making them. Which is wild to me how many people continue to shake their fists in outrage. You're willfully ignoring the fact that the part of Japan Studio that succeeded in that, where the rest failed, was kept alive.
People are legit mad there is no knack 3 and can't understand why they didn't make it.
 

Jigsaah

Gold Member
Imagine thinking that anyone who doesnt like this clout chaser is a Sony fanboy

Check my post history, see if I'm a Sony fanboy

Dude havent been part of the industry for decades now and knows shit about how Sony operates today from the inside, only some shit gossip.

His HUGE, SAD AND DISRESPECTFUL news about Sony from just a few days ago turned out to be a producer being fired, ffs

He is an old man yelling at clouds 'cause he wants your clicks for some money.

People only give him a platform here 'cause he is probably the only "celebrity" that still posts at GAF and Ree hates him
jaffe is speaking from his perspective. Yes it's very huge sad and disrespectful for him, because he knew and worked with Connie and has a lot respect for her. Just because you barely know who she is does not make his description of the situation wrong. It's not just a producer to him. To him Connie was instrumental in delivering a lot of industry defining games. For that to be the case and for her to simply get fired after all she has done for Sony is tragic and anybody with an ounce of empathy in their personality could take a moment and place themselves in his shoes and see why he describes this situation as he did.

Ok say you're not a fanboy...why should we turn our attention away from Jaffe in your opinion?

Celebrity is pushing it a bit far. I think Jaffe is a guy who has had his own footprint in the industry and likely has more insight than I would ever have. So why write him off as some old man yelling at a cloud?

Go ahead, explain.
 

nial

Gold Member
Reading a lot of the thread, it really makes me wonder why so many people decide to go with their emotions in how they react to certain things, instead of rationalizing and THINK logically about why something happens in a specific way.
The moment you ask why Horizon is getting a new game instead of Wild Arms should be the moment you realize things have crossed the line. Now ask yourself why Zelda is getting a new game instead of Sin & Punishment. Sounds like a retarded question, doesn't it?
 

coffinbirth

Member
Imagine thinking that anyone who doesnt like this clout chaser is a Sony fanboy

Check my post history, see if I'm a Sony fanboy

Dude havent been part of the industry for decades now and knows shit about how Sony operates today from the inside, only some shit gossip.

His HUGE, SAD AND DISRESPECTFUL news about Sony from just a few days ago turned out to be a producer being fired, ffs

He is an old man yelling at clouds 'cause he wants your clicks for some money.

People only give him a platform here 'cause he is probably the only "celebrity" that still posts at GAF and Ree hates him
His last game, a 1st party Sony one at that, was six years ago, but sure.
 

coffinbirth

Member
You forgot to add that it was a 56 on Metacritic. Jaffe's last relevant game was God of War in 2005
No, I didn't.
I was replying to "Dude havent been part of the industry for decades now".
giphy.gif
 

TrebleShot

Member
What was the last game Japan studios put out?

Apparantly they closed two years ago lol I had no idea.
 
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mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Without gaas, mobile is the future, sony is repeating SEGAs mistake, doing their own thing without looking at what the others doing is huge mistake, if they can't afford gaas then the solution isn't new, it actually goes way back in early 2000 when MS approached Sony for merging the platform for online.

Are you smoking weed? What are others doing that's some huge success that Sony should "follow"?
 
Media Molecule has a more recent and bigger success than Japan Studio. And that's why Sony will allow them to try again even if Dreams flopped.

They are also Bafta award winning. They have level of prestige that buys them some time.

With regards to Japan Studio - Shuhei knew they were in the shit which is why he convinced Becker to lead the studio from 2013 onwards. When he got there he discovered they had 40+ projects in production and it was chaos.

He narrowed down their output but still had TLG in development for a long time, put out a couple of smaller games and did Gravity Rush. None of those would have recouped the outlays of the chaos years.

He was very successful at Santa Monica but Japan Studios was too crazy to save.

The culture inside was rotten and not salvageable. Anyone with any objective sense would have shuttered then and focused on the bits that worked (Asobi and xDev).
 
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Drizzlehell

Banned
On a side note, it truly baffles me that people still care about what Jaffe has to say. If he really wanted to keep making games then it would be totally possible for him to do it, independently or otherwise. But instead of doing something productive he just prefers to sit around all day and whine into a microphone while growing a beard that makes him look like a literal hobo.

Man, I wish I could have the kind of experience and connections as he does, I would totally use my time making actual games that I always wanted to play myself.
 

SEGAvangelist

Gold Member
On a side note, it truly baffles me that people still care about what Jaffe has to say. If he really wanted to keep making games then it would be totally possible for him to do it, independently or otherwise. But instead of doing something productive he just prefers to sit around all day and whine into a microphone while growing a beard that makes him look like a literal hobo.

Man, I wish I could have the kind of experience and connections as he does, I would totally use my time making actual games that I always wanted to play myself.
I mean, if he's making enough money and he's happy, more power to him.
 

ReBurn

Gold Member
Some of my favorite PlayStation games came from Japan Studio. A lot of unique games came out of there. The closure made me wonder about Sony's commitment to creativity in a time with so many derivative games releasing.
 
On a side note, it truly baffles me that people still care about what Jaffe has to say. If he really wanted to keep making games then it would be totally possible for him to do it, independently or otherwise. But instead of doing something productive he just prefers to sit around all day and whine into a microphone while growing a beard that makes him look like a literal hobo.

Man, I wish I could have the kind of experience and connections as he does, I would totally use my time making actual games that I always wanted to play myself.

People don't really care. His channel is small. He gets attention by saying something controversial or flaming console wars. Its pathetic seeing a grown ass man behave like that.
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
People don't really care. His channel is small. He gets attention by saying something controversial or flaming console wars. Its pathetic seeing a grown ass man behave like that.

What's even worse is watching grown ass men attempt to mean girls him from the peanut gallery.

Am I right or am I right?
 

Fake

Member
I won't bother to quote each of you.
I'll just say this: Japan Studio wasn't expensive to mantain. Wages are much lower in Japan, and I can assure you that a studio like Firesprite, based in the UK, is much much more costly.
And what are the results? Fucking Horizon VR.

100% agree.
Is impressive how people keep saying this and this, but Japan Studio probably wasn't that expensive to maintain, in comparison with studios like ND with as leaked before, have unlimited budge from Sony for no reason.
And we have people joking over that silly Spider-man 2 selling more than Mario, when in reality Mario dev cost was tiny in comparison with Spider-Man 2 so little effort for Nintendo just to get profit, we have fanboys keep focus into sales numbers while with is most important the profit vs costs. Fanboys don't care about the cost of the production.

Even John from DF said similar things in his last DF Weekly, that those western studios are expensive just for keep them alive, mainly California.

edit: Here (time: 27:25)


"With a studio that size, with many staff members based on California, thats got to be insanely expensive"
 
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ulantan

Member
100% agree.
Is impressive how people keep saying this and this, but Japan Studio probably wasn't that expensive to maintain, in comparison with studios like ND with as leaked before, have unlimited budge from Sony for no reason.
And we have people joking over that silly Spider-man 2 selling more than Mario, when in reality Mario dev cost was tiny in comparison with Spider-Man 2 so little effort for Nintendo just to get profit, we have fanboys keep focus into sales numbers while with is most important the profit vs costs. Fanboys don't care about the cost of the production.

Even John from DF said similar things in his last DF Weekly, that those western studios are expensive just for keep them alive, mainly California.

edit: Here (time: 27:25)


"With a studio that size, with many staff members based on California, thats got to be insanely expensive"

Naughty dogs games sell though they make that money back
 

Topher

Gold Member
There is no point in making products that consumers won't buy no one should be expected to do this.

Sony used to have the attitude that the big hits would fund the smaller games and that combination would allow for greater creativity across all the teams. And looking back at the library of games released the two generations prior to the PS5, that's exactly what they did and it worked extremely well in creating an awesome collection of games. Seems to me there is plenty of point to it.
 

ulantan

Member
Sony used to have the attitude that the big hits would fund the smaller games and that combination would allow for greater creativity across all the teams. And looking back at the library of games released the two generations prior to the PS5, that's exactly what they did and it worked extremely well in creating an awesome collection of games. Seems to me there is plenty of point to it.
But your smaller should be successful too I'm I make a game for 1mil and it only makes 200k that's not good either. your smaller games shouldn't pressure your larger games to make money to keep the smaller games going. that doesn't seem healthy. Late japan studios games had really small audiences, hell knak was held together by dunkey. Small games should be cheap and come out regularly. I love shit like freedom wars, gravity rush, locoroco, but I know I'm in the minority, I can't fault them for rallying around the one team inside there that was successful.
 

Nydius

Member
People don't really care. His channel is small. He gets attention by saying something controversial or flaming console wars. It’s pathetic seeing a grown ass man behave like that.
Indeed. Jaffe and Mark Kern (Grumms) both. They have a following of fans who act like their word and takes on the industry are gospel even though they haven’t really been in the industry for years or even decades. Or they’re so far on the periphery that they’re just talking out of their asses most of the time.

I respect what they accomplished back in the day but now they’re both just Twitter/X and YouTube trolls who usually sound like they have personal axes to grind, and they found that stoking the console war flames gets them the engagement they crave.

Edit:
But your smaller should be successful too I'm I make a game for 1mil and it only makes 200k that's not good either. your smaller games shouldn't pressure your larger games to make money to keep the smaller games going. that doesn't seem healthy.
To Topher Topher ‘s point, before their shift where they axed Japan Studio and focused big on “western” dev, Sony’s attitude was very similar to Hollywood of old: If you wanted a niche passion project film made, the studio needed big mass market hits to help finance them. Directors and producers who made blockbuster money would be given the resources and free rein to pursue their less (sometimes not at all) profitable projects.

Hollywood moved away from that over the last few decades and gaming apparently has as well. I suspect that’s why there’s some internal beef at Sony right now, the argument about focusing on blockbusters and chasing trends at the expense of art
 
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Sony used to have the attitude that the big hits would fund the smaller games and that combination would allow for greater creativity across all the teams. And looking back at the library of games released the two generations prior to the PS5, that's exactly what they did and it worked extremely well in creating an awesome collection of games. Seems to me there is plenty of point to it.
There are no smaller games anymore. It's indie or triple A.
 

Topher

Gold Member
But your smaller should be successful too I'm I make a game for 1mil and it only makes 200k that's not good either. your smaller games shouldn't pressure your larger games to make money to keep the smaller games going. that doesn't seem healthy. Late japan studios games had really small audiences, hell knak was held together by dunkey. Small games should be cheap and come out regularly. I love shit like freedom wars, gravity rush, locoroco, but I know I'm in the minority, I can't fault them for rallying around the one team inside there that was successful.

Eh....I'm not going to address made up numbers, but the point you are missing is that not every game has to be profitable to add value to the platform as a whole.
 

ulantan

Member
Edit:

To Topher Topher ‘s point, before their shift where they axed Japan Studio and focused big on “western” dev, Sony’s attitude was very similar to Hollywood of old: If you wanted a niche passion project film made, the studio needed big mass market hits to help finance them. Directors and producers who made blockbuster money would be given the resources and free rein to pursue their less (sometimes not at all) profitable projects.

Hollywood moved away from that over the last few decades and gaming apparently has as well. I suspect that’s why there’s some internal beef at Sony right now, the argument about focusing on blockbusters and chasing trends at the expense of art
And that's and point however near the end alot of those art projects just weren't good or took to long to make. Personally I want housemarqe to make a new resugun in-between there next big project. It's cheap and fun.
 

ulantan

Member
Eh....I'm not going to address made up numbers, but the point you are missing is that not every game has to be profitable to add value to the platform as a whole.

I agree in spirit but I do not think knack or contrast added value. I hate consolidation but Jim's greatest failure was buying haven studios and not either level 5, or falcom. mostly falcom there is no good reason why sony gave up making in house jrpgs. They are capable of staying in budget. And if you want heavy artstye games level 5 got you return dark cloud to them.
 
And that's and point however near the end alot of those art projects just weren't good or took to long to make. Personally I want housemarqe to make a new resugun in-between there next big project. It's cheap and fun.

I think it would be sound business for each of their studios to make smaller games alongside the larger ones. I like that Obsidian made Pentiment alongside The Outer Worlds and their new RPG.

It keeps a buzz of creativity, you can use internal jam days to build culture, Sony gets to tap into unused creativity and PS+ would have a real value add.
 

Topher

Gold Member
I agree in spirit but I do not think knack or contrast added value. I hate consolidation but Jim's greatest failure was buying haven studios and not either level 5, or falcom. mostly falcom there is no good reason why sony gave up making in house jrpgs. They are capable of staying in budget. And if you want heavy artstye games level 5 got you return dark cloud to them.

Hi Fi Rush added value for Xbox. So did Pentiment. Gravity Rush. Tearaway. Journey. Fat Princess. The Last Guardian. Everybody's Golf. More than that, but that's off the top of my head. Did they all make money? Nope. Did they add value? Did to me and others.
 

ulantan

Member
Hi Fi Rush added value for Xbox. So did Pentiment. Gravity Rush. Tearaway. Journey. Fat Princess. The Last Guardian. Everybody's Golf. More than that, but that's off the top of my head. Did they all make money? Nope. Did they add value? Did to me and others.
Absolutely but tango game works are the proud creators of the evil within, evil within 2, and ghost wire tokyo, they make big games then they get to make thier small art game that's dope. Obsidian creators of the outer worlds, proud architects of the best fallout game new vegas. They make a small passion project in between. Naughty dog makes uncharted 2, and the last of us. Japan Studio gets to make fat Princess. That's not healthy. I'd rather have the bigger Studios make small stuff in-between.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Absolutely but tango game works are the proud creators of the evil within, evil within 2, and ghost wire tokyo, they make big games then they get to make thier small art game that's dope. Obsidian creators of the outer worlds, proud architects of the best fallout game new vegas. They make a small passion project in between. Naughty dog makes uncharted 2, and the last of us. Japan Studio gets to make fat Princess. That's not healthy. I'd rather have the bigger Studios make small stuff in-between.

Same difference. Tango Works and Obsidian used resources obtained by making those larger games to fund the smaller ones. Pretty much exactly the point I've been making.
 
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ulantan

Member
Same difference. Tango Works and Obsidian used resources obtained by making those larger games to fund the smaller ones. Pretty much exactly the point I've been making.
Yes now be Herman hulst Killzone shadowfall launches it's not reviewed great it sells poorly. Guerilla games is probably lined up for execution if thier new ip fails. meanwhile across the ocean there is a studio that is allowed to just drain money there is zero pressure on these devs to preform well at all. In fact your failure impacts them.
That's not a good environment In your Hollywood example the director that makes the big movies get the art projects. I think sony should strive to do that let the big guys make something small.
 

Topher

Gold Member
Yes now be Herman hulst Killzone shadowfall launches it's not reviewed great it sells poorly. Guerilla games is probably lined up for execution if thier new ip fails. meanwhile across the ocean there is a studio that is allowed to just drain money there is zero pressure on these devs to preform well at all. In fact your failure impacts them.
That's not a good environment In your Hollywood example the director that makes the big movies get the art projects. I think sony should strive to do that let the big guys make something small.

Eh....the basis of your argument is now fictional alternate history? Ok....time to call it. Agree to disagree.
 

Z O N E

Member
I think that's why they raised the price of PS Plus. It's to help offset the money spent on the development of the 12 GAAS games, so when the majority fail (which they normally do) they can get reimbursed from the PS Plus price.

We're about to see MANY more 3rd party exclusives on PS than before cause I don't see their 1st party titles coming out any time soon.

Sony closing and scaling back studios is simply because they found their Mario/Zelda/MK/Smash and Gears/Halo/Forza. And those games are GOW/GT/Spiderman/LOU/Horizon. Now it's time to cash in and milk them as long as possible.

Sony was a lot more creative in past gens because they shotgunned so many different games across different genres, many werent good and they spread themselves too thin. They had as many shooter franchises as MS, EA and Activision combined during the 360/PS3 gen.

They are consolidating to key hits and a USA/Euro focus because thats where the money is. And if thats where the sales are, the VPs wont be from Japan.

I think the only downside with Sonys IPs is they're really just one and done playthroughs. I would've played TLOU2 New Game + IF it was there on day 1 but it wasn't. The same goes with GOW.

There are only so many times you can play Spiderman in New York without getting bored. GOW should 100% skip the stupid 1 camera rule, then people might replay their games and not have to sit through un-skippable cutscenes.
 

SHA

Member
Are you smoking weed? What are others doing that's some huge success that Sony should "follow"?
Could you comprehend large numbers? In the grand scheme of things, the number of zeros don't matter, it's all about relativity, when there is a bigger piece of pie, which is mobile, then, the other smaller pieces should do something to prevent it from getting bigger, otherwise, they'll just keep on shrinking.
 
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