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[DonasaurusRex]

late is the hour that this suggestion comes...if you dont have the capacity for it now...i dont see it happening. Its probably better than they leave the actual manufacturing of the product with foxconn that has years and years of experience doing so.

 

[kamspy]

Doesn't some of this have to with environmental waste disposal being more lenient in China?

 

[mj1108]

In reality, I've heard it's not necessarily all that cheap to outsource anymore. Yeah, the workers get paid shit, but that doesn't necessarily mean the contract reflects that or that manual labor is the bulk of costs.

I don't understand the concept of "Apple should pay its chinese employees more money."

I sincerely doubt Apple has any foreign factory employees. It seems a lot more likely they simply have contracts with Chinese industrial conglomerates to build iPods to their specs.

Hence why they outsource... why pay a US worker $10-$12 an hour plus any benefits when you can ship the job overseas and pay $2 an hour plus no benefits?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Because Americans don't care where things are made. If something is better to them, they buy it.

That's not necessarily true at all. The entire electric guitar/bass industry is based around that model. Paul Reed Smith, for example, makes it's Custom 24 in the US and it sells for around ~$2,700.00. The PRS Custom 24 SE, the same guitar (with virtually identical specs) made in China, costs about $600.00. It's a matter of marketing.

 

[chaostrophy]

Also, has "Designed by Apple in California, Made in China" it ever struck anyone else as weirdly inconsistent because California is a state and China is a country? Shouldn't it be either Designed in USA or Made in Guangdong?

 

[teepo]

Yeah, no doubt about it!

For those not familiar with FOXCONN and the work conditions there, you should read :

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/

i find it odd that you link that article and selectively chose that quote when the article explicitly states that 17 suicides out of a million isn't very much, even stating that american college students kill themselves four times as much.

 

[brotkasten]

Yeah, no doubt about it!

For those not familiar with FOXCONN and the work conditions there, you should read :

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/02/ff_joelinchina/

Don't worry, FoxConn took care of that.

FoxConn asks employees to sign anti-suicide due to the suprising numbers of recent suicides of FoxConn employees.

This is definitely new when it comes to getting a job. One signs the typical contract that most people don't read but this? Sounds crazy but it is true, If you want to work for FoxConn looks like this is something you will need to sign. What has made FoxConn to do such a thing? It all has to do with the string of suicides that have been going on and I think we all remember the worker at Chinese manufacturer Foxconn committed suicide back in 2009 after a fourth-generation iPhone prototype for which he was responsible went missing. A total of 14 employees have killed themselves in the past 16 months.

Employees were asked to sign a contract that said this:

In the event of non-accidental injuries (including suicide, self mutilation, etc.), I agree that the company has acted properly in accordance with relevant laws and regulations, and will not sue the company, bring excessive demands, take drastic actions that would damage the company’s reputation or cause trouble that would hurt normal operations.
​

http://www.techgadgetsnews.com/foxconn-aska-employees-to-sign-anti-suicide-contract/

There, suicide problem solved.

 

[stldave2]

Slightly older article but I remembered the details well enough to find it. This is in regards to the idea of building a "Foxconn-like" industrial campus in the US...

Otellini says it costs Intel $1 billion more to build a factory in the U.S. than abroad because of a lack of U.S. tax incentives. The company has a multi-billion dollar factory slated to open in China this October.

"You have to weigh the advantages of working here, the security of working here in this country...against that billion dollars."

Otellini questioned why global business leaders would want to do business in the U.S. due to the cost, saying it is critical to incentivize foreign countries to invest in America. "Our corporate taxes are twice what they are in the rest of the world. You want corporations to invest here."

http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/14/technology/intel_otellini_interview/index.htm

When it comes to publicly traded businesses, it's all about the Benjamin's baby.

 

[teepo]

OK, so I'm no statistician, but how does that number compare to:

a) General Population
b) Jobless Population
c) Employed Population working in tall buildings

for every 100,000 chinese, on average 13.9 kill themselves.

so going by those numbers, they're well below average even by american standards.

 

[John Rabbit]

OK, so I'm no statistician, but how does that number compare to:

a) General Population
b) Jobless Population
c) Employed Population working in tall buildings

17 suicides out of 1,000,000 people is well below the average rate for the country. going by 2008 rates.

like most "journalism" its sensationalist and misguided.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Hence why they outsource... why pay a US worker $10-$12 an hour plus any benefits when you can ship the job overseas and pay $2 an hour plus no benefits?

That's an incredibly simplistic response. There are lots of other factors in terms of costs beyond manual labor itself. As I said before, Apple likely doesn't pay workers in China anything; they probably have a manufacturing contract with some Chinese conglomerate who simply builds them to spec in order to meet the contract price.

 

[War Machine]

Back in the Nike-controversy days, there was actually a huge movement of people opposed specifically to exploitation of foreign workers that had very little to do with nationalistic preferences. I think people have pretty much given up on that almost completely though.

It's very difficult to put pressure on a company to provide safer working conditions in factories abroad. For one, it's rare to have a clear picture of those conditions while wading through corporate mumbojumbo about things "improving" and other self-back-patting and for two it's just to something that's easy to force upon other countries. Even if you could get them to change their laws, there's little chance they will be properly enforced (this is even a problem in the U.S., though to a much lesser-extent than third-world countries). And further it's just a political quaqmire -- look at how upset a lot of Europeans got about the U.S.A. moving in to arrest Osama and compromising him to a permanent end.

OK John Cena

 

[Littleberu]

i find it odd that you link that article and selectively chose that quote when the article explicitly states that 17 suicides out of a million isn't very much, even stating that american college students kill themselves four times as much.

I quoted the first two paragraphs of the articles, yes. Nothing odd about that.

 

[atomsk]

Well, that would mean they could more reasonably do it. And don't food yourself, you know they are overcharging more then most computer companies.

But if I don't food myself then how will I solve my hunger problem?

Spoiler

I wasn't defending the fact they're overpriced, just stating what most Apple detractors would be saying

 

[ElectricBlue187]

That's not necessarily true at all. The entire electric guitar/bass industry is based around that model. Paul Reed Smith, for example, makes it's Custom 24 in the US and it sells for around ~$2,700.00. The PRS Custom 24 SE, the same guitar (with virtually identical specs) made in China, costs about $600.00. It's a matter of marketing.

I don't get what you're saying. If people think the American made guitar is better, they'll buy it. I highly doubt they are paying an extra 2 grand just because it's made in the US. If that applied to the general populace in the US, the entire outsourcing trend never would've happened.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't get what you're saying. If people think the American made guitar is better, they'll buy it. I highly doubt they are paying an extra 2 grand just because it's made in the US. If that applied to the general populace in the US, the entire outsourcing trend never would've happened.

You've never been to an electric guitar forum, I take it.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/

They are paying extra money because they believe Chinese built things are inferior. It's how the industry marketed itself; they mostly rely on hoping people will remember when Chinese built things were pieces of crap. (In the 1970s and 80s, guitars built in China were simply dreadful and frequently made of heavy plywood. Today they have the roughly the same parts as US guitars and are made of the same wood. Moreover, US built Gibsons and PRS's are build on CNC routers the same as they are in China.)

 

[andycapps]

That's an incredibly simplistic response. There are lots of other factors in terms of costs beyond manual labor itself. As I said before, Apple likely doesn't pay workers in China anything; they probably have a manufacturing contract with some Chinese conglomerate who simply builds them to spec in order to meet the contract price.

They're indirectly doing that. Saying we're giving you such and such billion dollars and saying we need this many units of hardware in this period of time is going to dictate how much that Chinese conglomerate pays those employees. In other words, if it was being made here, Apple would have to agree to a much larger contract for the same amount of units.

 

[Crazymoogle]

Also, has "Designed by Apple in California, Made in China" it ever struck anyone else as weirdly inconsistent because California is a state and China is a country? Shouldn't it be either Designed in USA or Made in Guangdong?

State != Province

Apple is proud of designing their stuff in California (where they started), but they can't guarantee the products will always be manufactured in a particular Chinese Province. So they can instead credit China as a whole (and heck, they may be required by law to do so...)

 

[Orayn]

Designed by Apple in California.
Built by underpaid Foxconn employees, like the rest of the gadgets we lust for.

 

[Deleted member 22576]

Its not until you realize your power cable says "designed in california" that you get why people hate apple.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

17 suicides out of 1,000,000 people is well below the average rate for the country. going by 2008 rates.

like most "journalism" its sensationalist and misguided.

that before or after they put up the nets on the roof?

 

[Zyzyxxz]

Okay this is probably going to embarrassingly expose my lack of understanding of corporate economics but I think it's worthy of discussion. And this could apply to many American companies that have outsourced manufacturing abroad but I'm using Apple as the example as they're an incredibly high-profile and profitable US company that also (in)famously outsources all its manufacturing to China where working conditions and pay are notoriously awful.

So why not do something really bold in the realm of corporate responsibility and bring all that manufacturing back to the US? Apple could, I'm quite sure, afford to create a huge FoxConn-style facility here in the US where employees would enjoy the same conditions and benefits that other Apple employees enjoy and not, you know, have to commit suicide on a regular basis. At a time when companies like IKEA and BMW are building huge new factories in the US, how about a big American company actually follow suit?

Okay obviously the huge argument against it is that it would cost much, MUCH more to manufacture Macs and iPads here than in China where FoxConn employees are paid something like 65 cents per hour. I don't know if there's even an economic model whereby Apple could pay factory workers even minimum wage and still sell its products at a profit without having to jack up prices. But I do think they'd sell even more volume if consumers could feel good about buying a US-made product at a time when outsourced manufacturing to China and the shitty US job market are such frontline political issues. For each new iDevice to say DESIGNED AND BUILT BY APPLE IN CALIFORNIA would engender a tremendous amount of consumer goodwill.

I'm sure I'm being incredibly naive here, maybe it's just not economically possible. And even if it were but entailed Apple making less per unit the shareholders would never tolerate it because all they give a shit about is their own vast wealth. But wouldn't it be great?

First of all car companies like BMW and Hyundai are building factories here because shipping costs for cars is fucking crazy, and since both companiese are experiencing great growth it makes sense. It costs nothing to ship a tiny iphone in comparison and bulk shipping rates + super cheap labor costs make it a steal not to take advantage of.

You also overestimate the joy people would have in buying "made in America" products, if that was the case then everybody would be wearing American Apparel rather than most of the other. The reason why most manufacturing went to China? American consumers pushed for it with the desire for low prices.

I understand where you are coming from but from a world perspective some country will always be at trade deficits and every decade it shifts as consumer and production demand for raw materials change as new ones are discovered or depleted and that is always how it has been. I'm not saying we should sit idly waiting for change but at the same time these are things that we only have partial control over. Also if history has shown us anything isolationism by attempting to produce everything yourself like many countries tried during the early 1900's during the height of nationalism make the world economy much worse as most countries specialized at making only certain things. Like a bad assembly line its counter productive to make every work produce an entire product from start to finish.

Could they afford to do this? Sure. But will they? No. Wal-Mart could afford to pay people $20+ per hour as well, but they're not gonna.

Actually Apple might be able to afford it but definitely not Wal-Mart, they may make a shitload of money but they also run a very low profit margin, about 3-4% whereas Apple did an average of 17% over the last couple years. Walmart also employs a shit ton of people so even raising pay by $1 an hour would affect their profit margin severely.

 

[alphaNoid]

I think you're overestimating the draw of "American Made"; while it was once a mark of pride, it is now associated with inferior products thanks to decades worth of mediocrity. For all their efforts, that branding could actually cost them the sales they have (Nevermind the additional sales they'd need to offset the much higher costs of American labor).




Whether or not they are overcharging is an arguable point but what isn't in dispute is the fact that they're selling what is considered to be a premium product compared to their direct competition in the industry.

Most all American Made products I use are quality built and have lasted 10x longer than things build cheaply overseas.

 

[WickedAngel]

Most all American Made products I use are quality built and have lasted 10x longer than things build cheaply overseas.

Whether or not that is true has nothing to do with what I said.

 

[Zeppu]

Wouldn't Apple retracting everything from Foxconn probably end up with mass firings basically putting those overworked underpaid workers in a worse situation? In return they have to manually set up a location, employ a bunch of workers, keep them satisfied, manage them directly for a price which will definitely be higher (otherwise they would've done it already). At the end of the day all 'savings' are better for any company.

Furthermore, with companies like foxconn, you can move employees around to fit demand and churn out more units. What's <company name> gonna do when it's product is too popular to keep up with the demand your current factory can produce?

I'd imagine factories like Foxconn work like virtual servers on the cloud. heh.

 

[dinazimmerman]

Wouldn't Apple retracting everything from Foxconn probably end up with mass firings basically putting those overworked underpaid workers in a worse situation?

Someone gets it.

 

[kennah]

That was a great read from Wired. I agree that if CEO's are just a bunch of MBA's without any experience in engineering it is very easy to just see the shiny coin and not see the cost of the engineering mistakes.

Why the fuck are there Portal 2 spoilers in this thread?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

Okay obviously the huge argument against it is that it would cost much, MUCH more to manufacture Macs and iPads here than in China where FoxConn employees are paid something like 65 cents per hour. I don't know if there's even an economic model whereby Apple could pay factory workers even minimum wage and still sell its products at a profit without having to jack up prices. But I do think they'd sell even more volume if consumers could feel good about buying a US-made product at a time when outsourced manufacturing to China and the shitty US job market are such frontline political issues. For each new iDevice to say DESIGNED AND BUILT BY APPLE IN CALIFORNIA would engender a tremendous amount of consumer goodwill.

Even if Apple did assemble in the USA, they damn sure wouldn't do it in California.

Apple used to build lots of computers in the USA though. Jobs built his NeXT computer factory in the USA too. Apple IIs were built in Dallas, TX, and Apple had other plants in the USA, all the way through the earlier years of the Macintoshes built in Fremont, and later Sacramento, CA. They tried to hang on there even after most PC clones started assembling overseas, and it seriously almost killed the company. The Fremont Macintosh plant, despite being touted as the most advanced, automated plant in the world, closed after something like two years. Unionized labor costs were the biggest factor.

 

[Seraphinianus]

We don't. But its funny you mention Valve, because many of us do think that Valve has their customers interests at heart, and thats because Valve seems to have realized the better you treat your customers, the more loyal they become to your service,

---->

and the more money you make in the long term.

the point is that these companies objectify people and Valve has merely hit the right notes with fans to soak up those dollars. Companies will copy their business model in the future and it's not because they've had a change of heart, it's because of the cost-benefit analysis.

Wait, what? What do they manufacture?

really? you're gonna bust me on a technicality? well, if we're gonna get technical, they manufacture plenty of physical merchandise for their digital entertainment. I don't know 100% but I'd bet my left nut that their stuff is manufactured in china, indonesia, or india, etc.

and if you really wanna get technical, their servers and all of the equipment they use to make games is probably not blood-free either.

 

[rezuth]

Steve tried this with NeXTStep and it almost costed him the business. It is too expensive and inefficient to work.

 

[teepo]

that before or after they put up the nets on the roof?

"evidence gathered from news reports and other sources indicates that 17 Foxconn workers have killed themselves in the past half decade"

 

[verbum]

I was made in America and am a premium product.
I was delivered by American labor.

Off topic, last night I listened to the Maximum PC podcast. They talked briefly about Whitta being a traitor and going over to the Apple side. And they said he could not be trusted anymore since he could be mole for Apple if he went back to the PC world. Do you think he is a Manchurian candidate ?

 

[Tobor]

I'm sure I'm being incredibly naive here, maybe it's just not economically possible. And even if it were but entailed Apple making less per unit the shareholders would never tolerate it because all they give a shit about is their own vast wealth. But wouldn't it be great?

In a nutshell, yeah. What is there to discuss, really? The answer is for someone to build a factory in America that can produce mass quantities at prices better than Foxconn and bid for Apple's business. Some unicorn tears and leprechaun's blood wouldn't hurt.

 

[Seraphinianus]

as corporate-skeptical as I am, the 17 suicides really skirts the issue of capitalism in general (a topic so huge i don't even wanna think about it and I'm sure the writers wouldn't even know where to begin...they'd have to scrap the "shocking Apple article" for starters) and plays on public stupidity by making an inference that apple drives people to suicide.

 

[AstroLad]

I was made in America and am a premium product.
I was delivered by American labor.

Off topic, last night I listened to the Maximum PC podcast. They talked briefly about Whitta being a traitor and going over to the Apple side. And they said he could not be trusted anymore since he could be mole for Apple if he went back to the PC world. Do you think he is a Manchurian candidate ?

The whole thing is pretty crazy -- for a while, I thought it was just some Gary Whitta fan/hater that posted on here under his name but the more I read, the weirder the whole thing becomes really.

 

[Al-ibn Kermit]

If I had to decide between one American getting a job versus five people from a third world country, why would I want the American to get that job? Even if it was a 1:1 exchange, it would be pretty hard to argue that an unemployed American is more needy than an unemployed Chinese person.

I don't know, I personally hate the concept of nationalism and putting your fellow countrymen's welfare above foreigners, but this idea also seems useless as far as helping the manufacturing industry in the US. It can't compete to China/India/Mexico when it comes to the price of labor and those industries are becoming more automated anyways. Giving it an extra shot in the arm seems useless.

I would prefer that Apple spend more money on designers, engineers, and other white collar jobs in California. The US is actually growing in the information, technology, and science industries.

 

[gblues]

Okay this is probably going to embarrassingly expose my lack of understanding of corporate economics but I think it's worthy of discussion. And this could apply to many American companies that have outsourced manufacturing abroad but I'm using Apple as the example as they're an incredibly high-profile and profitable US company that also (in)famously outsources all its manufacturing to China where working conditions and pay are notoriously awful.

So why not do something really bold in the realm of corporate responsibility and bring all that manufacturing back to the US? Apple could, I'm quite sure, afford to create a huge FoxConn-style facility here in the US where employees would enjoy the same conditions and benefits that other Apple employees enjoy and not, you know, have to commit suicide on a regular basis. At a time when companies like IKEA and BMW are building huge new factories in the US, how about a big American company actually follow suit?

Okay obviously the huge argument against it is that it would cost much, MUCH more to manufacture Macs and iPads here than in China where FoxConn employees are paid something like 65 cents per hour. I don't know if there's even an economic model whereby Apple could pay factory workers even minimum wage and still sell its products at a profit without having to jack up prices. But I do think they'd sell even more volume if consumers could feel good about buying a US-made product at a time when outsourced manufacturing to China and the shitty US job market are such frontline political issues. For each new iDevice to say DESIGNED AND BUILT BY APPLE IN CALIFORNIA would engender a tremendous amount of consumer goodwill.

I'm sure I'm being incredibly naive here, maybe it's just not economically possible. And even if it were but entailed Apple making less per unit the shareholders would never tolerate it because all they give a shit about is their own vast wealth. But wouldn't it be great?

Given the current regulatory overhead in the state of California, this will never, ever happen. Designed? Sure. Manufactured? HAHAHAHAHAHA no. It would be 2020 before California even issued the building permits.

That's not to say one couldn't do manufacturing in the US. Build in Idaho (pretty good tech presence, geologically and meteorologically stable, conservative government), and hire exclusively part-time minimum-wage employees who work in 4-hour shifts. No overtime, no health care. Great opportunity for supplemental income.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Even if Apple did assemble in the USA, they damn sure wouldn't do it in California.

Apple used to build lots of computers in the USA though. Jobs built his NeXT computer factory in the USA too. Apple IIs were built in Dallas, TX, and Apple had other plants in the USA, all the way through the earlier years of the Macintoshes built in Fremont, and later Sacramento, CA. They tried to hang on there even after most PC clones started assembling overseas, and it seriously almost killed the company. The Fremont Macintosh plant, despite being touted as the most advanced, automated plant in the world, closed after something like two years. Unionized labor costs were the biggest factor.

Good insight.

 

[GDJustin]

Suicide rates among FoxConn employees were lower than national China suicide rates FYI. The company just employs a LOT of people. So some off themselves, each year.

 

[Gallbaro]

So much of GAF thinks globalization and free trade are terrible net loss concepts that forcibly remove farmers from their idyllic paradise and enslaves them in dirty, grimy, and amputating factories.

 

[AstroLad]

So much of GAF thinks globalization and free trade are terrible net loss concepts that forcibly remove farmers from their idyllic paradise and enslaves them in dirty, grimy, and amputating factories.

just based on this thread i would say that's not the case at all. silly gaf

 

[numble]

Apple pays its retail employees 15-20 per hour to sit at a cashier. If they were to have factory workers, the cost would probably approach auto-industry wages.

That doesn't even get into the inefficiencies of running your own manufacturing operation. For instance, as a random example--you need a ton of iPads for launch, so FoxConn devotes 700,000 employees to it. But 3 months after launch, you only need 400,000 to meet supply. They can shift those 300,000 employees to making Samsung TV sets or Acer Notebooks.

 

[Seraphinianus]

So much of GAF thinks globalization and free trade are terrible net loss concepts that forcibly remove farmers from their idyllic paradise and enslaves them in dirty, grimy, and amputating factories.

so many people just start thoughts that look like arguments and don't even fini

 

[nyong]

It wouldn't benefit their bottom line, so they won't do it. Apple is widely loved despite rampant outsourcing, the worst environmental rating of all the tech companies, and numerous anti-trust concerns. If people stopped buying Apple computers because the company only hired workers whom they didn't have to pay healthcare benefits and US-wages, they'd start manufacturing in the states.

 

[Parl]

OK, so I'm no statistician, but how does that number compare to:

a) General Population
b) Jobless Population
c) Employed Population working in tall buildings

General population in China, 139 per million each year. If this is per year, Foxconn is deeply on the good side of that stat.

 

[Dartastic]

yeah, it's a common error on the internet to confuse corporations for people with hearts. They will never do this. ever.

i don't understand why you guys see companies like apple, nintendo, valve, sony, microsoft, etc. as your friend/buddy who has a conscience. Think of them more as your fucked up drug dealer who would gut you and your bank account if it weren't for those pesky laws.

It's this, only not necessarily as evil as you make it out to be. Corporations have a legal obligation to act in the best interest of their shareholders. Even moving some labor over to the USA could be seen as a bad move for shareholders, and could get a company sued. Yaaaaayyyy, capitalism! :/

 

[Parl]

It's this, only not necessarily as evil as you make it out to be. Corporations have a legal obligation to act in the best interest of their shareholders. Even moving some labor over to the USA could be seen as a bad move for shareholders, and could get a company sued. Yaaaaayyyy, capitalism! :/

Would it not be devastating for the workers at Foxconn though? Taking out the 'Americans first' factor, is it not better on balance to use Chinese labour. I don't know enough on the subject, but it seems misguided that people find developed countries' investments in poor countries to be morally wrong - is it not mutually beneficial?

 

[J-Rod]

It seems crazy to me. It's like a toyota getting in the mining business just to provide their own steel. In this case it would just be assuming one more step of the supply chain. Should they not then get into the business of manufactering plastics too? I can't think of many companies that handle every step of the supply chain by themselves from raw materials to final consumer product because it is not effecient. It just doesn't make sense to do and probably is overal less beneficial for the economy.

 

[Dartastic]

It's usually not an investment in a country. It's an investment on their bottom line. Their obligations are to the shareholders; nobody else.

 

[Seraphinianus]

It's this, only not necessarily as evil as you make it out to be. Corporations have a legal obligation to act in the best interest of their shareholders. Even moving some labor over to the USA could be seen as a bad move for shareholders, and could get a company sued. Yaaaaayyyy, capitalism! :/

well, yeah. shareholders/normal people are in on the business model too. I probably sound like i'm saying it's the corporations vs. the people, but it's ridiculously more complicated than that.

so, I'll take my statement back and instead say that corporations and their constituents would gang bang you until you're a cream-filled doughnut if they could.