As opposed to the positive experience of never playing high-level content? Which Bungie has identified as a problem which Guided Games is designed to fix?
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Destiny 2: "Guided Games" only works with normal difficulty for Raids (and Nightfall)
- Thread starter ZeoVGM
- Start date
As opposed to the positive experience of never playing high-level content? Which Bungie has identified as a problem which Guided Games is designed to fix?
Mike Double U
Banned
You could easily just Alt + Tab for the same effect, but your point still stands. The feature should absolutely be in the game.
Shifty Capone1
Member
Whether or not I agree with it is irrelevant as this is exactly what they were probably thinking. It 2as more then likely the right call for them as a team too. They'd rather have people bitch about having to go somewhere else to find a group than people saying "Your group finder put me with horrible people!"
Using an app doesn't eliminate that. You're only argument is to make it harder to get into a game. You know less people will use the app than if all the options were built in game.
You're losing nothing with bungie providing options.
Ethical Hedonism
Banned
I wonder why they keep getting away with it
17 Seconds
Banned
because the amount of bad experiences would increase greatly, leading to even more toxicity and bitching about the game.
destiny raids are not meant to be a casual activity.
High level content in Destiny is also paired with frustration. Enabling a in-game system that "encourages" a negative experience is something Bungie wants to avoid.
If these players would like to experience high level content, do what everyone did in Destiny 1, open up a web page and find a group externally. That way Bungie or Destiny the game isn't held responsible for the negative experience.
Guided Games is a PERFECT solution for getting players into a normal raid. Its a platform that's forgiving to the player, and encourages them to try end game content. Absolutely perfect. Heroic is a completely different experience.
benicillin
Banned
I've read that they're changing how the hard mode versions of these activities work, so I'll wait until I find out more about what punishment for failure/death they're instituting other than no revives before I can comment on this.
Nydius
Member
No, Blizzard had to nerf the shit out of them because they were harder than 10 man Karazhan was. It was more difficult to get attuned to get into Karazhan than it was to clear half of the tier 4 10 man raid instance. Even premade, raid experienced, groups were getting the shit stomped out of their 5 man heroic groups, especially in the Tempest Keep dungeons (and a couple of the Auchindoun dungeons).
They were overtuned for everyone not just pick up groups.
You can play high level content with Guided Games. It's funny how we've immediately switched from "Oh gosh I'll never get to see a raid in Destiny!" into "Oh gosh now I'll never get to see a Heroic Raid in Destiny 2!" Like, is it that essential that you experience the hardest and most difficult content with minimal group-finding effort?
josecitoxnyo
Member
That's something to actually complain about, making the hardest activity in the game less punishing in the game is a fuck no.
Make it harder, it's already easy, no need to make it less punishing.
We'll, we're at an impasse then, because I don't think at all that dumping LFG off onto external websites absolves them of responsibility for bad experiences. With that logic, you could eliminate any social feature from any game, rather than working to improve and curate it.
And you can still have the options you use in an app to create the experience you want in game if bungie did so and nothing will change.
I'm sure you had crap raids even with that app. Having the ability to have players join your game only if they meet the criteria you set n that app would be no different than the experience you'd get if bungie built that suite in game.
Literally nothing changes for you in that scenario.
17 Seconds
Banned
pathetic elitism. your average destiny player is not the same as your average wow player. most destiny players who jump into a raid without research would think it's just another shooting event. it's not.
you know how i know this? because i've spent tons of time playing destiny raids, all while using lfg. maybe the pc crowd will be different, but from my experiences on console, people are fucking dumb. even if you specifically look for groups that claim to be experienced, it's hard to find a group of 6 people who all know what to do. i'm sure you're super smart or whatever, but you are not the typical destiny player.
Who is saying that? What I'm asking is: in what bizzarro world is it essential that LFG options only exist outside the game?
Sorry, as I said before: that reasoning simply doesn't work.
It would work if it were ONLY the heroic Raid that is the issue here. But you and I both know that description doesn't apply to the Nightfall. I've done it for three years, 90% of the time with randoms who don't use a mic.
Sometimes someone sucks or quits. It happens. Like it happens in every single other video game.
And going further than that, no optional matchmaking for Prison of Elders or story missions in Destiny 1. Literally zero reason not to except Bungie simply didn't. And it looks like Destiny 2 is going in the same direction as they clearly would have announced "optional matchmaking in all non-Raid activities" if it were a feature.
So the argument doesn't work. It just doesn't.
- In-game LFG for Raids and Trials. (Mics have to be detected, the group can vote to boot a player.)
- Optional matchmaking for everything else.
There is absolutely no reason not to do that.
Maybe, I don't recall specifically but we were in Kara first on our server. I think that's how heroic should be, anyhow.
There is not group finding period in these games for the high level content. You have to leave the game and go searching on third party services to be able to play the content.
josecitoxnyo
Member
There is logic actually, you just don't like it.
Endgame activities, Quests strikes that need to have people all times for you to actually finish the quest or have higher chances to, etc.
Guided games is there for you to meet people once and hopefully never use it again, they don't even need to tie it to a dificulty, it's there on normal cause is the natural progression of the game.
That's a problem right there, you don't even need randoms to finish a nightfall, so the problem is, why is the nightfall an endgame activity, they need to get rid of it, but hey, why won't they? oh yes, it's there for 100% solo players, those who need a familiar challenge with a slight bump in dificulty and a better reward than usual.
Now all of that got even more devaluated with loot raining to max level everywhere, but still, the main idea was that for most of the game's lifespan.
The heroic mode is the mode for the experienced, it's for those who have already mastered the raid. You master it at first in the more forgiving Normal mode that has revives and easier enemies, and then you jump into the heroic mode with the group that guided you through normal mode. Heroic mode raids in Destiny are practically the same raid with spongier enemies and perma deaths. Only those who mastered the raid should be able to finish it. But I do believe an LFG system should be implemented inside the game, without having to use 3rd party tools like PSN communities or DestinyLFG and other websites.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
That was funny, "I am angryyy GRRRRR so I am giving them 250 bucks of my money for the preorder!"
Lol.
Never played the 1st destiny, tho I am interested in joining in the 2nd. So what this means is, no matchmaking for higher difficulty activities and if you want to do that, you're basically locked into either playing with someone from your friend list that also play the game or find them through 3rd party sites like GAF or somewhere else?
Hmmmm.
How's that setup working for the 1st Destiny? I am sure plenty of you here are veteran players of that game.
Double Donut
Member
"Guided games are our way of making sure everyone who loves Destiny can play every piece of content we build." -Luke Smith.
Heroic raids are marginally different pieces of content from their normal counterparts, so why can't we use guided games to play them? That's a piece of content Bungie built.
17 Seconds
Banned
but i'm not the only person that bungie is making this game for. sure, from my perspective, it would only lead to annoyances. bungie has more at stake than that.
gamers are generally an unforgiving and whiny bunch. it totally makes sense that they would not want to completely open the door for excessive criticism towards their best activity.
there will continue to be controversy about this, but the reality is that it's a very easy decision. they have to limit the ease with which someone jumps into a raid to increase the likelihood that the players involved are aware of what they're getting into.
people will claim they aren't buying the game because of this, but the amount of people who ACTUALLY skip the game based on this pales in comparison to the damage that easy in-game matchmaking would do to the mode's reputation.
I 100% agree with this.
100% agree.
This is exactly how matchmaking and use of guided games should work. Blind matchmaking should NOT occur in Raids and Trials. There should be an in-game LFG for these, however. And folks should know a Mic is required. (Guided games sounds perfect for these activities). Require Normal mode before attempting Heroic. Everything else should have a blind matchmaking option. I have spent many hundreds of hours over three years playing Destiny and I'm shocked this isn't how this is going to work...
Edit: I guess I'll just keep using DestinyLFG. It's worked great so far. I've added some really cool people I jive with to my friend list and almost always find people to play with.
Compsiox
Banned
They could just put a level barrier for accessing hardcore matchmaking.
I agree with you there, Guided Games should be used for Nightfall's as the experience isn't as punishing.
I still believe for modes such as Trials and Heroic Raids, Guided Games shouldn't be used as the experience is definitely more frustrating than the average game mode. As mentioned by a previous commenter, if these modes were just matchmaked, the average player would see them as just "another game mode" but in reality, there not.
Both Trials and Heroic Raids include a lot of frustration, coordination and teamwork, and it can get heated very quickly if someone is lacking. Bungie eliminating any systems that enable this type of negative experience is definitely for the best. If you would like to experience these high stress game types, open up a web browser and find a group that's tailored to your play style/ experience.
josecitoxnyo
Member
In their eyes you're supposed to used guided games once, meet people, get accepted in a group/clan, and always people to play because of that.
People are simply thinking it's a classic LFG system when it's not.
Night Angel
Member
Good, it's like WoW. Doing the hardest content with randoms would likely lead to terrible gaming experiences.
Uh, that's nonsense. The Nightfall is quite hard to solo for most players. And the vast majority do play it with other people, whether it's friends or LFG.
But again, it would be optional matchmaking. You press a single damn button to turn it off if you want to solo.
This isn't difficult.
What damage it would do? They want it to be the mode you can't do with random groups and people would try to matchmake and realize
..
"Hey, I can't do this with a random group!"
What has changed? But if you can do normal with randoms, you can do Heroic with randoms so that's fucking horseshit from the jump tbh.
Exactly, imagine trying to do the Oryx challenge with someone that requires a guided game that only played the raid once on Normal. It's not what guided games were made for.
You're not doing it with randoms. The newbie that has never played the raid hand picks a clan that are willing to guide a newbie through the raid for the first time. It's not matchmaking, it's the opposite basically.
This isn't a full team of randoms.
Guided Games is 4 or 5 people in a clan -- people who already know each other -- looking for 1 or 2 other people to get a full team.
That would work absolutely fine with heroic difficulty.
But that's exactly what happens on current LFG sites.
It's never going to be perfect. Raids are always going to have some sort of issue like that whether it's an LFG site or Guided Games. And that's okay. If the person is a complete disaster, they can be booted.
i agree with this in regards to at least the heroic difficulty of the raid, given the raids in destiny 2 are tuned like heroic raids were for the first part of destiny. it's like trying to queue for mythic raids the week theyre available in wow. maybe you're willing to put up with it but at that point what's to stop a group from starting a guided game in the normal listing, then filling, delisting, and manually starting up the heroic raid? seems like an incredibly simple method to fill groups, imo.
Probably already been said, but I think the idea here is: You don't know the raid, joined guided game, get carried by a clan, join clan if it was a positive experience, now you're in a clan that you can raid with.
Seems good to me, this is a game that is best enjoyed with friends.
Seems good to me, this is a game that is best enjoyed with friends.
Hm. On one hand I think this is garbage, but on the other hand, I played WoW where LFG raids were considered "baby's first raiding experience". I had a real group for the real raids and i can understand completely the desire to avoid bringing along someone who doesnt know wtf theyre doing and doesnt seem to care about improving. So...Im kind of neutral on it? Think I'll still end up passing though. Sorry Destiny, I'd rather risk shitty runs than no runs at all.
Normal raids aren't high-level content anymore? I suppose we'll have to see if they're just incredibly dumbed down or something, but if they're at the same level as they were in Destiny 1 I think they're still going to be a pretty healthy challenge for newcomers.
Yeah, I think people read "Guided Games" as just a fancy name for LFG tools.....when it's more the case that they expect Guided Games to be a set of training wheels for newcomers. And that those newcomers are meant to eventually outgrow those training wheels. It's not meant as a tool for seasoned players to fill out groups for the hardest possible content, but more a way for people to establish the social connections necessary to raid without using a groupfinder tool. By contrast, the Looking For Raid in WoW was never really meant to form new playgroups......it was just to let randoms play easy content together.
I can see the logic behind their decision - you probably need to have done the raid in Normal mode a few times to gain the levels required for Heroic and by then you will have found a clan to do it with and not need GG. -Its the way WoW does it, and that game is the stick that Destiny detractors use to Bungie with.
I can see why some might be miffed - though the level of salt and righteous indignation in this thread is a sight to behold.
And bungie could've built a suite of options in game that filtered out people who aren't experienced.
Completion rate, quit rate etc could easily be settings you'd make in game and if people didn't meet your requirements they wouldn't even be able to see/ get into your game. Destiny tracks everything you do. They easily use those stats for that.
That's not what Guided Games are for, it's not LFG. It's for newbies to experience the raid without having to beg someone to carry them. LFG on the other hand should be included in the game and be completely separate from Guided Games.
Might have to ship the game with more than one raid otherwise.
josecitoxnyo
Member
If you mean by most players those who use pulse or auto rifles on PVE and build characters based on looks? Then yeah, they need to learn to play the game, it's that easy to find who is a new player, a noob or simple bad playing the game.
There has been only 1 nightfall that was actually hard, Omnigul with Arc burn on year 1, the rest are just a strike like any other. And now they're easier than ever.
The problem is the nightfall itself, it shouldn't exists anymore.
When they announced Guided Games, it was not described as "for newbies" and they didn't remotely mention that it didn't work for heroic difficulty. They waited to mention it when asked in a random podcast.
And come on, Bungie knows people were going to use Guided Games as an LFG tool. That's how Luke Smith treated it when it was announced. There were threads on Reddit all about being excited to no longer need an LFG site. Bungie has people on that Reddit every day and saw those but never clarified.
Guided Games, no matter what it is "for," would work just fine with heroic mode. And if you don't want to use it, don't.