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[Refreshment.01]

People are overstating the importance of the dock to some people. That does not sound like a reasonable standpoint. Japan just does not have a large console market. The inherent concept of the design does not necessarily rely on the dock. The logo actually does not indicate the dock at all. The switching can refer to the switching control methods. The trailer shows it being used as a portable for more time than a console.

This, there's a lot of things that can be switched but people are forgetting how Iwata wanted to sell a device that can cover all their bases, something that is a hybrid because it can be used as a portable or a home console. This makes it cheaper to sell one device that can do both than to sell a home console and a handheld separately where as you see the home console was an embarrassment in sales -> Wii U.

People overstate the importance of the dock with good reason, due to the setup Nintendo chose to realise the Switch hybrid concept:

• 1. The Joycons are the way they are in the first place because the driving force behind the concept was creating a device that blurs the line between portable and home console.
• 2. The fact that the world unveiling of the device opens up and closes with seamless transition from Home Console to portable, speaks enough how much a core part of the concept the Dock is.
• 3.Since it's a Hybrid the portable aspects of the Switch had to be compromised.
• 4. Since it's an Hybrid the Home console aspects of the Switch had to be compromised.
• 5. Motion gaming and split screen gaming are more suitable to the big screen TV environment.
• 6. You guys seem to be forgetting the market state of dedicated handheld devices.

Now considering the above elements, specially the concesions made to the home and console aspects. Following the suggestion of selling at launch a Dock less SKU, Nintendo would be entering the market with a device crippled in it's portable aspects and without half the functionality. How can we deem that reasonable?

If Nintendo was contemplating that curse of action, then a more pure handheld... that is, a device more focused in portabilty and with less compromises would have been the more sensible alternative to that market. However, you guys are also forgetting that the dedicated Handheld market is in decline everywhere, this is one of the main reasons why Nintendo is bringing a device with an unique hook. Leave the home console capability outside and they enter Japan with a powerful yet more standard looking handheld (more standard than a DS for sure) with a questionable battery life.

And ggx2ac, your last response seems to contradict your point about a Dock less SKU. What we know so far officially about the dock is that it allows connection to the TV, recharges the device (this also possibly accomodates an APU clock change) and has some extra ports for accesories or additional storage. This is not something as significantly expensive as a dock with additional processing elements as was speculated.

In this sense considering the relative low cot of the dock and the impact it has on the device functionality and selling/marketing points, then it's absence might not balance out the cost reduction.

i think that Rappy and ggx2ac rebutal boils down to: "Home consoles declined in Japan so it makes sense to downplay that aspect of the Switch." This fails to adress fundamental aspects of the Switch all the way to design considerations. But assuming this is the case, then come march, you can be sure Nintendo won't resist the alure of higher profit margins by not including the dock.

With this state of thinking i will propose an scenario Rappy and ggx2xac haven't considered yet: Let's say Nintendo is downpalying the seemless transition from TV to portable in Japan. With this in mind a good strategy would be to sell the Dock less SKU and put that cost savings into a larger capacity battery to strenghten the portable aspect of the device.

We have shown our reasons, not point in derailing the thread more since this is dedicated to the control aspects of Switch. The good thing is that will find out soon enough.

That would open the risk of consumers using a wrong charge adapter and blow their Switch.

Hi MB, i might be wrong, but i remember some years ago the USB association revising USB 3 and making a standard for charging "higher end"devices.

Since it's pretty safe to say the Switch would have at least USB 3.1 or maybe C then maybe there wouldn't be any problems if users use the charging methods for USB 3 they have laying around.

Having this capabilty solves problems to everyone: Nintendo and the consumers.

 

[aBarreras]

So, what do we suspect the dark square beneath the left-side buttons is?

It almost seems like it's an unfinished button, with a feature to be revealed later. Given its boring and weird design.

Surely the power button is on the main unit, as would you'd expect the NFC reader (which doesn't need a visible button anyway). It may work as a home button when separate, but what's the point in that when connected?

TV-Button perhaps?

NFC chip?

 

[Decado]

I guess no chance the Wii u pro controller will be compatible?

 

[Persona7]

So, what do we suspect the dark square beneath the left-side buttons is?

It almost seems like it's an unfinished button, with a feature to be revealed later. Given its boring and weird design.

Surely the power button is on the main unit, as would you'd expect the NFC reader (which doesn't need a visible button anyway). It may work as a home button when separate, but what's the point in that when connected?

TV-Button perhaps?

I think one of the insiders said that is the "share" button.

 

[VanWinkle]

Wavebird reborn!

I don't understand. This doesn't look anything like the Wavebird? The only thing that is similar is asymmetrical placement of analog sticks.

 

[TheMoon]

That's such a bad setup, it's sad that some people will find that acceptable. The screen is not big enough for split multiplayer. Bad for single player too, with these games designed primarily to be played on a bigger screen.

The screen is absolutely fine for singleplayer. At that distance it's also perfectly fine for 2p MK.

NFC chip?

It's a button, the NFC reader is not a button. Most likely scenario is it is behind the screen, as is the case with the N3DS.

I guess no chance the Wii u pro controller will be compatible?

Unlikely since it will lack the share button, possibly the analog triggers and lacks any motion sensing.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I guess no chance the Wii u pro controller will be compatible?

It's possible they could let it connect, but if the new triggers really are analog, or new Pro Controllers have other extra features like motion, they might not be able to keep up with all games.

I don't understand. This doesn't look anything like the Wavebird? The only thing that is similar is asymmetrical placement of analog sticks.

I think it's more about the big center part hanging down, versus most other controllers having empty space between the grips.

 

[jett]

This is true comedy. Whatever time they spent solving for this possibility to play with a single joy-con was not worth it.

It really does look like the most uncomfortable shit.

 

[Razorskin]

Any chance the Wii U pro controller will work with the Switch?

 

[sanstesy]

Any chance the Wii U pro controller will work with the Switch?

Unlikely.

 

[peterclark1985]

It's possible they could let it connect, but if the new triggers really are analog, or new Pro Controllers have other extra features like motion, they might not be able to keep up with all games.

They won't let you use Pro controller because of the same reason why Microsoft don't let you use 360 pads with XB1 and Sony don't let you use DS3 with PS4...Money, if they can get you to buy a new controller for $60 with minor modifications then it's a no brainier on their part.

 

[Rappy]

Now considering the above elements, specially the concesions made to the home and console aspects. Following the suggestion of selling at launch a Dock less SKU, Nintendo would be entering the market with a device crippled in it's portable aspects and without half the functionality. How can we deem that reasonable?

However, you guys are also forgetting that the dedicated Handheld market is in decline everywhere, this is one of the main reasons why Nintendo is bringing a device with an unique hook. Leave the home console capability outside and they enter Japan with a powerful yet more standard looking handheld (more standard than a DS for sure) with a questionable battery life.

i think that Rappy and ggx2ac rebutal boils down to: "Home consoles declined in Japan so it makes sense to downplay that aspect of the Switch." This fails to adress fundamental aspects of the Switch all the way to design considerations. But assuming this is the case, then come march, you can be sure Nintendo won't resist the alure of higher profit margins by not including the dock.

With this state of thinking i will propose an scenario Rappy and ggx2xac haven't considered yet: Let's say Nintendo is downpalying the seemless transition from TV to portable in Japan. With this in mind a good strategy would be to sell the Dock less SKU and put that cost savings into a larger capacity battery to strenghten the portable aspect of the device.

How exactly is the "device crippled in its portable aspects and have half the functionality"?

That's a whole lot of words to say a lot of nothing. You're basing the "compromises" on a battery life number with no context and the idea that they can add in a larger capacity battery. Consumer battery technology has not advanced greatly in all the years of smart devices. What has changed is modern architecture and proper power management. You can't just say throw in a better battery without thinking about the physical size of it.

You say it yourself, dedicated handhelds are in decline. But you know what one of the "switches" of the Switch likely is? A tablet. And the dock not costing much to manufacture is not a good argument against multiple SKU's. The different HDD sizes is used to justify different SKU's and the price difference between the storage capacities definitely do not reflect the actual price differences they charge for the different SKU's.

Of course, this is all just speculation on everyone's part. But having a dockless SKU does not seam unreasonable.

Any chance the Wii U pro controller will work with the Switch?

I believe there are actually rumors that you can use Wiimotes for Just Dance Switch.

 

[TheCongressman1]

If they release different sku's, I hope they have one with integrated controls as a lite version. I'm never going to use the split controllers for multiplayer. I'd rather just get a few pros.

I'm also really skeptical about how sturdy those rails are going to be. I hope this doesn't feel flimsy.

 

[Epcott]

This is true comedy. Whatever time they spent solving for this possibility to play with a single joy-con was not worth it.

I'm sure there'll be a Switch XL in the future. Larger tablet and Wiimote sized controls.

I wonder what that extra information is that Nintendo said their holding about the console? They make it seem as though theres other ground breaking features they don't want their competition aping. Shocked there's not a speculation thread on it 😏

 

[MIMF]

To me, the decision of sacrificing a normal dpad for having instead four independent buttons to allow the use of the left joy-con as a stand alone mini controller is totally crazy and stupid. This means dead end for fighting games which is my favourite genre for a portable console, I simply cannot get it.

Also the second analog vertically under the buttons and so close to the right edge... looks to be uncomfortable to use as hell. Same for the totally flat back part of the device, I think the joy-cons should have a rounded back part to be able to grab the console comfortably.

My heart really wants to be excited and hyped about the switch, but this kind of things make me feel very doubtful about the console.

 

[SapphiCine]

The screen is absolutely fine for singleplayer. At that distance it's also perfectly fine for 2p MK.

Sure, if you like eye strain and increased mental fatigue.

 

[EDarkness]

How exactly is the "device crippled in its portable aspects and have half the functionality"?

That's a whole lot of words to say a lot of nothing. You're basing the "compromises" on a battery life number with no context and the idea that they can add in a larger capacity battery. Consumer battery technology has not advanced greatly in all the years of smart devices. What has changed is modern architecture and proper power management. You can't just say throw in a better battery without thinking about the physical size of it.

You say it yourself, dedicated handhelds are in decline. But you know what one of the "switches" of the Switch likely is? A tablet. And the dock not costing much to manufacture is not a good argument against multiple SKU's. The different HDD sizes is used to justify different SKU's and the price difference between the storage capacities definitely do not reflect the actual price differences they charge for the different SKU's.

Of course, this is all just speculation on everyone's part. But having a dockless SKU does not seam unreasonable.


I believe there are actually rumors that you can use Wiimotes for Just Dance Switch.

I seriously don't see a dockless SKU in the cards. A dedicated handheld? Definitely. I think Nintendo has been pretty clear what the main purpose of the NS is, but they've also been on record saying that the handheld business isn't going anywhere. So getting a handheld device as the successor of the 3DS should be expected. I just don't think it's going to be in the form of a dockless NS. My guess is they'll use the same underlying tech, but it'll be built with being only a handheld in mind. The novelty of the NS is that it can be taken on the go if needed, but it's still a home console at it's core.

 

[Xun]

It really does look like the most uncomfortable shit.

I might be alone, but I actually don't think it'll be as uncomfortable as people are saying.

 

[Ran rp]

It really does look like the most uncomfortable shit.

one of the commercial actors said they got to play with it all day and it was very comfortable.

 

[Malus]

one of the commercial actors said they got to play with it all day and it was very comfortable.

Well, he got to hold it but he didn't play any games on it.

It probably won't be as comfortable as the Wiimote and Nunchuk just going by their design and size, but we'll know when we try it.

 

[Refreshment.01]

That's a whole lot of words to say a lot of nothing. You're basing the "compromises" on a battery life number with no context and the idea that they can add in a larger capacity battery. Consumer battery technology has not advanced greatly in all the years of smart devices. What has changed is modern architecture and proper power management. You can't just say throw in a better battery without thinking about the physical size of it.

Rappy, you claim this as if you know for a fact that Nintendo is using the battery with more mha capacity that the physical dimensions of the device would support. That is quite an asumption for a device that will cost around 250- 300 U.S.

For what i' ve seen thoes cutting edge batteries are employed by devices in an upper price range, devices that use 1 battery no less. As of right now, the asumption is that each Joycon will feature it's own battery, so that's a total of 3 batteries for the Switch. A considerable amount of the BOM might be eaten by batteries. Edit: Would have been nice if Nintendo used the IR tech to get away with AAs for the Joycons.

So i guess is a pretty safe asumption to think that Nintendo did not go top of the line with the batteries due to costs savings and if money permitted they could use a higher capacity one. Which was the whole point of Nintendo investing what costs they could save in other parts of Switch towards benefitting the portable aspect of the device in Japan.

You say it yourself, dedicated handhelds are in decline. But you know what one of the "switches" of the Switch likely is? A tablet. And the dock not costing much to manufacture is not a good argument against multiple SKU's.

This is something you brought yourself, there hasn't been an argument against different SKUs in general from my part.

The different HDD sizes is used to justify different SKU's and the price difference between the storage capacities definitely do not reflect the actual price differences they charge for the different SKU's.

In this case different HDD sizes doesn't compromise the device basic functionality and the selling/marketing point like excluding the dock would do.

In regards to the pricing and costs, yes, there are 100s of decisions made in the cutting room that ends affecting the components and it's types as well as the overall consumer price. im not exactly sure how you want to rebut my post with the HDD example.

Of course, this is all just speculation on everyone's part. But having a dockless SKU does not seam unreasonable.

Now this is the SKU i have an issue with, a dockless one, not SKUs in general as you tried to convey.

Had you guys actually been discussing Switches with different storage sizes (32GB/64GB) to use your own example here, i wouldn't have invested the time to cook up a reply.

Anyway, in march will know Rappy XD

EDITED: Other replies:

The screen is absolutely fine for singleplayer. At that distance it's also perfectly fine for 2p MK.

You guys don't need to argue so much when you have a way to test this right now:

Get your Wii U and play some Wii games that support Wii Remotes NES style in Off TV.

Can a single Switch allow 4-player multiplayer or is it only limited to 2?

Almost 100% percent guaranteed. The JoyGrip has LED's for up to four controllers same goes for the Switch Pro controllers. So when the Switch is docked you could play 4 split screen multiplayer in the TV.

 

[Pandy]

They won't let you use Pro controller because of the same reason why Microsoft don't let you use 360 pads with XB1 and Sony don't let you use DS3 with PS4...Money, if they can get you to buy a new controller for $60 with minor modifications then it's a no brainier on their part.

This is a bit rich to post when the last couple of console generations from Nintendo have been exceptionally generous in terms of being backwards compatible with previous controllers.

I wouldn't expecy the WiiU Pro controller to be available as a standard controller, as it seems certain to lack features of the Switch Pro pad, but if Wiimotes are indeed able to connect for Just Dance then I'd be surprised if Wii Classic controllers and WiiU Pro Controllers weren't an option for some uses. For example for playing Virtual Console games.

 

[Rayis]

Can a single Switch allow 4-player multiplayer or is it only limited to 2?

 

[FyreWulff]

I'm sure there'll be a Switch XL in the future. Larger tablet and Wiimote sized controls.

I wonder what that extra information is that Nintendo said their holding about the console? They make it seem as though theres other ground breaking features they don't want their competition aping. Shocked there's not a speculation thread on it 😏

i'm almost guessing there will be third party Joycon controllers for Switch

 

[TAS]

Nintendo knows controller interfaces better than anyone--they wrote the book on it. I HIGHLY doubt they would introduce the Joy-Con if it didn't meet their standards. Just relax and have some faith.

 

[SapphiCine]

Nintendo knows controller interfaces better than anyone--they wrote the book on it. I HIGHLY doubt they would introduce the Joy-Con if it didn't meet their standards. Just relax and have some faith.

What standards? The Gamecube controller has a shitty d-pad and the c-stick was well yeah. The Wii Remote has a mediocre d-pad and the Classic Controller (Pro) is only somewhat better. Not to mention the ergonomics of the Wii Remote held sideways. The DS Lite has a worse d-pad than the original DS. 3DS' d-pad and ergonomics are lacking. Can't speak for the Wii U. Nintendo is more than willing to compromise quality for accessibility.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Edit: Would have been nice if Nintendo used the IR tech to get away with AAs for the Joycons.

Wouldn't that totally kill the ability to use them separately, for comfort / dual motion / multiplayer? Bad trade.

Can a single Switch allow 4-player multiplayer or is it only limited to 2?

I guess we haven't explicitly seen it yet, but noooo way in hell does Nintendo with their strength in local multiplayer regress to pre-N64 controller limits.

 

[TheMoon]

Sure, if you like eye strain and increased mental fatigue.

Why do you think Off-TV was such a hit with many players. Probably not because they all loved eye-strain.

Any chance the Wii U pro controller will work with the Switch?

This exact question was asked and answered literally right above your post.

Can a single Switch allow 4-player multiplayer or is it only limited to 2?

4 players of course. You just need to look at the light bars on the controller, like on any Nintendo controller since Wii.

 

[CrisKre]

The more we discuss and the more I look at this systems various options and how it was designed, the more I feel the whole thing and its design is trully brilliant and cant wait to get it in my hands. It achieves so many different things while still staying simple and elegant.

March cant come soon enough.

 

[Ran rp]

Well, he got to hold it but he didn't play any games on it.

It probably won't be as comfortable as the Wiimote and Nunchuk just going by their design and size, but we'll know when we try it.

I know. with it, not on it. He was able try all the configurations.

 

[KooopaKid]

This is true comedy. Whatever time they spent solving for this possibility to play with a single joy-con was not worth it.

Yeah I don't get it. How are you supposed to drift in MK? There's no accessible shoulder button.

 

[udivision]

Yeah I don't get it. How are you supposed to drift in MK? There's no accessible shoulder button.

There are shoulder buttons under their pointer fingers, I think...

EDIT: Unless those are connector.

I think the game drifts for you... wasn't that an option in MKWii?.

 

[Dark Cloud]

There are shoulder buttons under their pointer fingers, I think...

There are shoulder buttons there. It's cool how they're hidden when the joy-cons are attached.

 

[Ran rp]

x-post

Yeah I don't get it. How are you supposed to drift in MK? There's no accessible shoulder button.

.

 

[sixteen-bit]

I don't understand. This doesn't look anything like the Wavebird? The only thing that is similar is asymmetrical placement of analog sticks.

both are wireless too

 

[sammex]

I don't understand. This doesn't look anything like the Wavebird? The only thing that is similar is asymmetrical placement of analog sticks.

Look at the general shape. Both chunky and with long grips down the sides. I'm not the only one who saw a resemblance.

 

[VanWinkle]

both are wireless too

Well, I mean, pretty much all console controllers are now.

Look at the general shape. Both chunky and with long grips down the sides. I'm not the only one who saw a resemblance.

They're both chunky, but I mean, that's not really a differentiating factor. Completely different shape, analog sticks, buttons, dpad, grips, etc. Regardless, if you're seeing a resemblance between the two, that's fine. It just confused me as they look nothing alike. I don't think the Switch controller looks like anything before it. It's kind of ugly honestly, though I am excited to try it.

 

[Rodin]

Yeah I don't get it. How are you supposed to drift in MK? There's no accessible shoulder button.

Motion controls? Also there is an accessible button.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I seriously don't see a dockless SKU in the cards. A dedicated handheld? Definitely. I think Nintendo has been pretty clear what the main purpose of the NS is, but they've also been on record saying that the handheld business isn't going anywhere. So getting a handheld device as the successor of the 3DS should be expected. I just don't think it's going to be in the form of a dockless NS. My guess is they'll use the same underlying tech, but it'll be built with being only a handheld in mind. The novelty of the NS is that it can be taken on the go if needed, but it's still a home console at it's core.

Now this is interesting... Vividly rememebre the "Just a Handheld with a TV out", as your stance. What changed? i typed until my fingers got tired about how the Switch was not a PSP with a TV out to no avail.

Wouldn't that totally kill the ability to use them separately, for comfort / dual motion / multiplayer? Bad trade.

You are confused Joshua. Maybe is my fault for not been more explicit, however i do remember talking about this many times, even in this thread. Anyway, is not about using IR for wireless data transmision. Is about:

• Using IR Sensor inside the Switch or Joycons to measure the displacement of buttons to register inputs. This translates in simpler inards and PCB, thus allowing cheaper controllers or even battery less Joycons that work when attached to the main unit.
• IR input transmission when the Joycons are attached and Bluetooth when detached. Even thought i assume the Joycons stop using Bluetooth when attached and relay on the physical connections to transmit data to save battery. Going with IR transmision to save battery has the benefit of degrading less over time than a physical connection that relies on Pin like contacts. IR would only need for 2 small windows to be aligned and they could even work in very close proximity instead of making physical contact. A great advantage for the operating life of a device that will be constantly attached and detached during operation.

i wasn't implying to use IR like a TV remote does. im stupid but not to that extent.

.

We were discussing the possibility of hidden R and L shoulders on the sliding side and brought up many instances in the video where that seems to be the case, as well as other speculation about what other functions these buttons could have. Nothing 100% sure still.

However, leaving these R and L shoulders aside, you could power slide in Mario Kart by using the Trigger underneat. Just like what we did in the Wii days with the "B" button when using the Remote NES style. It seems that the triggers in the Joycons will be equally accesible. Only difference is 1 player will use the trigger with the left hand and the other with the right one.

 

[SapphiCine]

Why do you think Off-TV was such a hit with many players. Probably not because they all loved eye-strain.

Any degree of portability is going to go against ergonomics but a setup like that is crossing the line.

 

[FlashbladeGAF]

Any degree of portability is going to go against ergonomics but a setup like that is crossing the line.

I doubt many people are going to play it like that. And if they are... If that's what they really want to do on a long trip, I'm sure they will be fine. Or they could be selfish and play it alone.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Taking my earlier comparison image (the later version assuming 6.2" screen), I added a couple other small controllers. The 8Bitdo NES30/FC30 is the smallest full dual analog controller I know, and the 8Bitdo ZERO is just plain the smallest. When we were in the speculation stage I suggested that with the constraints of screen size the controller sections might not be much bigger than it, so I wanted to see how close they ended up. As it turns out, not quite that small, though the button layout seems similarly cramped.

 

[KingSnake]

Yeah I don't get it. How are you supposed to drift in MK? There's no accessible shoulder button.

What if there are shoulder buttons?

 

[HotHamBoy]

The more we discuss and the more I look at this systems various options and how it was designed, the more I feel the whole thing and its design is trully brilliant and cant wait to get it in my hands. It achieves so many different things while still staying simple and elegant.

March cant come soon enough.

That's interesting because it's the total opposite for me. The more I see and the more I think about it the worse the whole thing seems.

I don't know who this is made for but those people in the commercial don't exist. I mean, I could see kids doing that stuff but that's not who they are marketing it to.

 

[KingSnake]

I don't know who this is made for but those people in the commercial don't exist. I mean, I could see kids doing that stuff but that's not who they are marketing it to.

"It's not interesting for me thus is not interesting for anybody."

 

[Branduil]

To me, the decision of sacrificing a normal dpad for having instead four independent buttons to allow the use of the left joy-con as a stand alone mini controller is totally crazy and stupid. This means dead end for fighting games which is my favourite genre for a portable console, I simply cannot get it.

Also the second analog vertically under the buttons and so close to the right edge... looks to be uncomfortable to use as hell. Same for the totally flat back part of the device, I think the joy-cons should have a rounded back part to be able to grab the console comfortably.

My heart really wants to be excited and hyped about the switch, but this kind of things make me feel very doubtful about the console.

The good news is that this will be the first handheld console with third-party controller options.

I would be shocked it someone didn't make "fighting pad" style joycons within the first year.

 

[MIMF]

The good news is that this will be the first handheld console with third-party controller options.

I would be shocked it someone didn't make "fighting pad" style joycons within the first year.

You are right, let´s hope so.

Another good option would be the possibilty to use the new pro controller with a holder to attach the Switch on top as we do with any tablet and many bluetooth controllers. This would be by far my preferred way to use of the console in portable mode.

 

[Branduil]

You are right, let´s hope so.

Another good option would be the possibilty to use the new pro controller with a holder to attach the Switch on top as we do with any tablet and many bluetooth controllers. This would be by far my preferred way to use of the console in portable mode.

Well, they showed the Pro controller working with the Switch in tablet form, so I assume you'd just need a holder to get that to work. If Nintendo doesn't make one, someone will.

 

[KooopaKid]

x-post

Nice find. That's reassuring.
The 4 directional buttons still seem awfully placed though but I understand why it is the case. What a weird compromise.

 

[Aostia]

It really does look like the most uncomfortable shit.

I've playsed on the GBA micro, I'll be fine