His bio in DMC4 says otherwise.
Also, what set Dante off into Super Saiyan mode in DMC1 was Trish sacrificing herself, not the Sparda sword. He went into crazy mode because he was pissed.
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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil
- Thread starter Sigmaah
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His bio in DMC4 says otherwise.
Also, what set Dante off into Super Saiyan mode in DMC1 was Trish sacrificing herself, not the Sparda sword. He went into crazy mode because he was pissed.
If you buy Spark then her regular jump will have parry frames.
The Pandora laser is her big damage move.
When in DT her guns are very effective at taking Mephistos' cloaks down and Blitz's shield.
i mean, isn't the whole point of DMC1's narrative that dante had surpassed sparda? they constantly compare him to his dad nonstop and drill it in that he's the next step with how he uses guns alongside swords rather than being a medieval kinda dude
It's not consistent with what has happened in the games thus far.
It's like when Phantom/Griffon looked at Dante and said "OMG SPARDA POWER LEVEL" when in fact Dante was not even close at that time. The bio looks like some meager humans estimation of Dante and Sparda power levels.
I feel like there's a big difference between the sons of Sparda power level and Mundus (and thus Sparda) because on one end they are so much weaker that they can be incapacitated by Mundus when he looks at them and can easily just mind control and the other end being they are strong enough to beat him. The difference between Vergil and Dante (and the whole point of the their final conflict in DMC1) is the Sparda sword which is what allowed Dante to beat Mundus and why Vergil couldn't. It's like why make such a big deal with Dante getting the Sparda sword when it wasn't the tool he needed to actually beat Mundus?
Like Dante in Sparda DT can summon dragons, have hit boxes on his sword that are the size of a building, near permanent inter dimensional and can throw Meteors with impunity (a move he can normally just throw out one at a time and very slowly normally). He can't do any of that without it.
If Dante has in fact surpassed Mundus without the Sparda sword then Vergil acquiring Sparda is pointless because that just means that Vergil can become much stronger than Sparda without using it. Which would mean it's pointless to have a Vergil with Sparda fighting against Dante as it would just be a more powerful Vergil with another sword.
It is important to acknowledge that DMC4 Dante is far more powerful than DMC1 Dante. He's been growing stronger this whole time.
I've always subscribed to the idea that Sparda was extremely powerful, but not an invincible godlike character, and time has warped peoples' perception of him. He slayed hundreds of powerful devils, enough to win a war, but hasn't Dante done that at this point as well?
Still, Vergil with Sparda (either son with Sparda) should create a huge differential since they're presumably "worthy". Or perhaps it could be rewritten that Vergil isn't worthy because he denies a part of himself (his human side)?
I've always subscribed to the idea that Sparda was extremely powerful, but not an invincible godlike character, and time has warped peoples' perception of him. He slayed hundreds of powerful devils, enough to win a war, but hasn't Dante done that at this point as well?
Still, Vergil with Sparda (either son with Sparda) should create a huge differential since they're presumably "worthy". Or perhaps it could be rewritten that Vergil isn't worthy because he denies a part of himself (his human side)?
MichaelFassbender
Member
Finally got past The Savior with Dante, after expending ALL of my saved items. Worth it?
Maybe. Knew I wasn't using em for some reason.
Maybe. Knew I wasn't using em for some reason.
Dante runs around with fully transformed Sparda for a short while before even walking into Mundus's room yet he can't do any of that crazy stuff until he watches Trish die and gets pissed. Sparda had little to do with what he was able to do at the end of the game and it was mostly Dante just letting his full power loose.
Also this, DMC1 entirely about Dante matching and surpassing his father. Mundus's subordinates already look at Dante and basically see Sparda 2.0 in him, the story strongly implies that Dante is close to his father's strength in DMC1 from the onset. I think it's logical to assume that the reason Mundus was able to initially beat down Dante is because Mundus probably got stronger too since he fought Sparda.
Am going to try that whenever PSN is back up.
Honestly the Savior is just a gimmick boss that everyone hates. You just need to know the strategy to beating him, and taking out his spots, and it won't be nearly as bad.
Yeah I do agree that DMC4 Dante is stronger than DMC1 Dante but it's not as massive of a increase as it was from DMC1 Dante to DMC1 Dante with Sparda.
I feel that if Vergil had that same Sparda power he would mop the floor with DMC4 Dante.
And he can't do all of the things I listed by default without the Sparda sword. He still has various limitations to his power that he doesn't when he's using the Sparda DT.
I would believe all of this if Dante did all of this WITHOUT the Sparda sword. He didn't, he had to use the Sparda sword to beat Mundus. You couldn't use Alastor/Ifrit in the final fight because they were obviously not strong enough... you had to use the Sparda sword as it was the only thing that was strong enough to even damage Mundus.
I see it as one of two possibilities:
1) Mundus/Sparda are a lot stronger than Dante/Vergil and these two can't beat those two without something like the Sparda sword. There's a clear power level difference between Sparda/Mundus and the rest of the demons/characters.
2) Dante/Vergil are at least as strong as Mundus/Sparda and they don't actually need something like the Sparda sword to beat them. This also means that Sparda isn't actually that much stronger than the regular demons like Beowulf/Cerberus/Phantom etc and by extension neither is Mundus.
Vergil went in and got bopped by Mundus (got bopped so hard he became his mind controlled slave despite being strong enough to two shot Beowulf, a supposed "rival" of Sparda). Sparda went in and whooped Mundus because he was Sparda. Dante went in WITH the Sparda sword and whooped Mundus.
I am liking theory 1 here.
I feel that if Vergil had that same Sparda power he would mop the floor with DMC4 Dante.
He hadn't awakened it's power yet just like he hadn't activated the Rebellion DT yet in DMC3.
And he can't do all of the things I listed by default without the Sparda sword. He still has various limitations to his power that he doesn't when he's using the Sparda DT.
I would believe all of this if Dante did all of this WITHOUT the Sparda sword. He didn't, he had to use the Sparda sword to beat Mundus. You couldn't use Alastor/Ifrit in the final fight because they were obviously not strong enough... you had to use the Sparda sword as it was the only thing that was strong enough to even damage Mundus.
I see it as one of two possibilities:
1) Mundus/Sparda are a lot stronger than Dante/Vergil and these two can't beat those two without something like the Sparda sword. There's a clear power level difference between Sparda/Mundus and the rest of the demons/characters.
2) Dante/Vergil are at least as strong as Mundus/Sparda and they don't actually need something like the Sparda sword to beat them. This also means that Sparda isn't actually that much stronger than the regular demons like Beowulf/Cerberus/Phantom etc and by extension neither is Mundus.
Vergil went in and got bopped by Mundus (got bopped so hard he became his mind controlled slave despite being strong enough to two shot Beowulf, a supposed "rival" of Sparda). Sparda went in and whooped Mundus because he was Sparda. Dante went in WITH the Sparda sword and whooped Mundus.
I am liking theory 1 here.
Dante's Super Saiyan boost at the end of DMC1 has almost nothing to do with the Sparda sword. The game makes it pretty obvious.
*Dante is running around with fully transformed Sparda*
*Dante still gets beat up by Mundus even with Sparda*
*Trish sacrifices herself to save Dante*
LIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT
*Dante is suddenly a Super Saiyan*
If anything the game implies that Dante powers up the Sparda sword, not the Sparda sword powering up Dante. This would also explain why Dante shelves Sparda after DMC1 and never opts to use it again.
Considering how many demons apparently survived encountering Sparda I think it's entirely plausible to say that Sparda isn't as powerful as his legend builds him up to be.
*Dante is running around with fully transformed Sparda*
*Dante still gets beat up by Mundus even with Sparda*
*Trish sacrifices herself to save Dante*
LIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT
*Dante is suddenly a Super Saiyan*
If anything the game implies that Dante powers up the Sparda sword, not the Sparda sword powering up Dante. This would also explain why Dante shelves Sparda after DMC1 and never opts to use it again.
Considering how many demons apparently survived encountering Sparda I think it's entirely plausible to say that Sparda isn't as powerful as his legend builds him up to be.
You are confusing what I mean by Super Saiyan.
The sword is inactivated at first and needs to be activated.
When it's activated he gets new godly powers.
Without the sword he doesn't have the godly powers (otherwise he would be summoning dragons, throwing meteors and would have full screen hit box attacks) even if he had activated it before.
It's like a conditional Devil Trigger.
Dante + Sparda sword (activated) = Super Saiyan form
Dante without Sparda sword = No Super Saiyan form
It also means that it's pointless for Vergil to try to acquire the Sparda sword and Dante/Vergil should just have a man to man fight because the Sparda sword doesn't make that much of a difference in their innate power level.
The sword is inactivated at first and needs to be activated.
When it's activated he gets new godly powers.
Without the sword he doesn't have the godly powers (otherwise he would be summoning dragons, throwing meteors and would have full screen hit box attacks) even if he had activated it before.
It's like a conditional Devil Trigger.
Dante + Sparda sword (activated) = Super Saiyan form
Dante without Sparda sword = No Super Saiyan form
In that case neither is Mundus and you would need to come up with a good enough reason as to how Vergil got whooped so badly by Mundus to get mind controlled by him. Because in theory #2 Dante/Vergil are basically near Sparda level already.
It also means that it's pointless for Vergil to try to acquire the Sparda sword and Dante/Vergil should just have a man to man fight because the Sparda sword doesn't make that much of a difference in their innate power level.
To me, this is easily explained with DMC3 Vergil and Dante being young and less powerful. Vergil basically tried to take on his father's greatest rival in strength as a pup.
Also, in terms of Sparda's power being so coveted, including by Vergil, it's because no one had ever surpassed Sparda at that point. Vergil and Dante don't know their full potential. There have never been other sons of Sparda (that we know of! HMMM), so it would make sense Vergil assumed he needed Sparda to unlock his true power. In DMC4, Dante's legend is just beginning, so there's no precedence for a more a singular being that's more powerful.
Bonus points if Alastor's fight cites his Viewtiful Joe Boss Battles and makes Mikey Kelley his VA again.
Same thing happened to me. You just have to go back to PSN store and download it.
roflwaffles
Member
I always thought the narrative set Dante as more powerful than Sparda by DMC4. DMC4 Dante just seemed like he could solo everything in DMC4 including Nero/Sanctus/Savior without breaking a sweat and he was just dicking around for all of it. He never gets put in enough of a situation to get super srs like he did against Mundus in DMC1.
Also we need DDT back, complete with the Unibeam super and everything. Say what you want about the gameplay, but these designs that came from it are just great.
Also we need DDT back, complete with the Unibeam super and everything. Say what you want about the gameplay, but these designs that came from it are just great.
More likely theory:
Sparda isn't as strong as he's believed to be since a lot of demons survived encountering him. Mundus at the time of his fight with Sparda was on the same power level as Sparda, thus why he lost. However after that Mundus, during his exile in the demon world, focused on getting more powerful so that he could crush Sparda should they cross paths again (or should he cross paths with Sparda's children).
The reason Mundus whips the shit out of Vergil at the end of DMC3 is because
1) Vergil was fresh off of getting beat by Dante, he was weak. This isn't exactly a far-fetched possibility since this already happens once in DMC3.
2) DMC3 Vergil is weaker than DMC1 Dante
3) Mundus is significantly stronger than he was when he fought Sparda
Lol I hadn't even noticed until someone pointed it out yesterday. Ho ho ho.
I think unless there is a specifically designed clash, like in certain boss fights, you'll just trade hits if your hitboxes connect with hurt boxes at the same time.
Depends on the attack.
You do a somewhat of a guard impact/strike type parry where both of you clash, there's a visual effect and Dante sort of staggers back (but free to roll/jump out). This is common against some of the sword wielding enemies and was more common in DMC1/DMC3.
Other attacks you either trade or the enemy is favored because they have certain attacks that can't be interrupted but you can be interrupted. But it gets muddled when you have Devil Trigger where you have hyper armor so your attacks are uninterrupted which means that say a Blitz does a lunge attack and you do an attack with DT, both of you will just continue their attack and damage each other.
Certain moves have so much hit stun or have special properties that they can hit enemies out of attacks that they normally can't be hit out of. Real Impact is this move.
I think it says a lot when Itsuno still has a soft spot for the DMC2 Dante design.
I wonder what it would be like if he "rebooted" DMC2 and remade it from the ground-up to better fit the rest of the series? There was no he could hope to salvage it originally when he came onto the project halfway through and had to make do with the hand he was dealt with. But now...?
According to the art book, a super DT-like feature was planned but was scrapped. I wouldn't be surprised if they revisited the idea for 5. I could see it being a mix between the Devil Trigger Explosion from 3 and DDT from 2, where you hold down the button to "charge" the DT, and the longer you charge the longer the duration. For balance reasons I could see having a unique moveset or at least unique super moves, but lacking health regen.
there is no salvaging the dmc2 story
edit: wait there's one way to salvage it: turn it into a singular mission in the concept for a 'day-to-day job' DMC thing where dante just kills generic demonguy villain in his own office immediately alongside the humanoid-ish final boss without going to hell or whatever
BumblebeeCody
Member
I would think the main way would be to a) take the basic concepts of the story (Lucia's subplot, the Vie de Marli, Argosax as the next Big Bad) and b) throw out everything else and start over.
Even the whole "going to Hell" thing works, if it would at all entail a means to to work Vergil/Angelo back into the plot.
For me, there's nothing immediately offensive about DMC2's story. It's just a lot of nothing. That's part of the problem. Itsuno could do a lot with the characters, the setting, and the antagonist to actually make it interesting. DMC2 was so much of nothing, that it could really be shaped into whatever they want.
At the same time, though, we're all sick of humans trying to harness devil strength. It's been done to death. We get it. Humans are assholes. Devils are not beyond redemption. It was a good moral that's overstayed its welcome. They need to move on, and remaking DMC2 would be rehashing this tale.
The one plot point that could redeem itself (and be re-purposed for practically anything Itsuno wants) is Lucia/Chi. I mean, here was a character who doubted her right to exist more because of being an artificially created being than just because she was a Demon. There was something a bit heartwarming there between her and Matier, it just wasn't told all that well because it was DMC2.
Either way, I think Itsuno will have to deal with DMC2's presence. That, to me, means the next game will press on and bring in characters like Lucia where appropriate, or they'll have to "revisit" it in some way such that the game's content isn't seen as such a huge eyesore that's still included in artbooks and the like.
direct_quote
Member
So I decided to extend the GAF true style tournament by 2 weeks, and and posted a thread about it... Hopefully now we'll get more entries...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=171235037#post171235037
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=171235037#post171235037
roflwaffles
Member
Haha shit, I forgot how bad Arius' accent was.
Now I'll absorb his power!
Yeah let's keep Arius away from DMC again. I'd still be cool with Lucia coming back though.
darkslayer101
Member
The very reason capcom included the information that alludes to Dante surpassing sparda in DMC4 bio is enough confirmation for me
Anybody listen to music while playing? This is what i currently have on loop whilst attempting to get some better vergil clips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhArsCBByKM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhArsCBByKM
Chaos2Frozen
Member
I came to the conclusion that if we want to see more than just a DMC5 in the foreseeable future, DMC5 has to set up some new story arc.
It doesn't have to be anything complicated, just grab a half decent story arc from shounen manga's playbook and put your own spin to it.
It doesn't have to be anything complicated, just grab a half decent story arc from shounen manga's playbook and put your own spin to it.
BKatastrophe
Member
My counter to the whole "how powerful is Dante" thing boils down to this:
Every demon he fought and beat had been beaten by Sparda. In DMC4, they were all small fry comparatively (save for Berial, who apparently ruled an entire section of Hell by himself and therefore jobbed hard) an in DMC2 they're artificially created, magic humans, or small fry.
So, besides Mundus (which I'll agree with Dahbomb on it being a case of the Sparda sword boosting his DT), he hasn't really taken any big guns down, unless you count Vergil.
Whatshisname from DMC2 was simply trying to bring another demon into the human world (if I recall properly). Sanctus wanted to effectively be the Savior and play God, which was a misunderstanding of Sparda as a whole, as he saw Sparda as a flawless being as oppose to simply a living being who made a choice and ended up being victorious.
So while I agree that it's a tired plot point, they've made it different enough each time to be interesting.
Every demon he fought and beat had been beaten by Sparda. In DMC4, they were all small fry comparatively (save for Berial, who apparently ruled an entire section of Hell by himself and therefore jobbed hard) an in DMC2 they're artificially created, magic humans, or small fry.
So, besides Mundus (which I'll agree with Dahbomb on it being a case of the Sparda sword boosting his DT), he hasn't really taken any big guns down, unless you count Vergil.
But there's a different twist every time on it. Arkham was trying to take Sparda's power for himself, which obviously didn't really work.
Whatshisname from DMC2 was simply trying to bring another demon into the human world (if I recall properly). Sanctus wanted to effectively be the Savior and play God, which was a misunderstanding of Sparda as a whole, as he saw Sparda as a flawless being as oppose to simply a living being who made a choice and ended up being victorious.
So while I agree that it's a tired plot point, they've made it different enough each time to be interesting.
ShinMaruku
Member
I agree, inasmuch as DMC2 is so barren and empty that any sort of reimagining would basically entail inserting a story from whole cloth where there was nothing previously. Though it might just be better to take it as canon in broad strokes, retcon anything which doesn't fit; then just move on, instead of spending an entire game on creating something worthwhile from 2's scenario.
Maybe in Viewtiful Joe 3. Also; if we ever get that prequel, it'd be interesting to see what sort of demons Yamato and Rebellion were.
Judging by prior precedent, it'd somehow turn into Rival Schools with a soulless moé artstyle mid-development.
4's enemy design was definitely a little too focused on defense globally; doubtlessly as a consequence of Nero. Though it was still a general improvement on 3 outside of bosses - hopefully 5 will benefit from focusing on Dante from the outset. Especially with the new characters, Blitzes and Berial are far too telegraphed and defensive to fulfill their potential - Vergil needs something like Gracious and Glorious, or an updated Plasma capable of duplicating multiple player characters.
I think they honestly could have gotten away with calling Lucifer Mundus - dramatic anticlimax aside, it's fairly consistent with some of his DMC1 projectiles, notably the ones Trish and Dante were crucified with. It'd also make that Mundus Vivendi sign right next to it fairly ironic...
The bolded is where I disagree. I'm not saying they haven't tried. But at the end of the day, it boils down to the same concept. It was refreshing in DMC3 because of the juxtaposition of evil human/heroic devil, and the underlying themes of how each brother dealt with their half-breed status. It was just significantly less interesting with every other entry.
roflwaffles
Member
DMC4 tried to do that with Nero...but then sort of scrapped it halfway and decided not to answer any questions or close up any loose ends.
They could honestly do it like Bayo/MGR where the plot is sort of nonsensical but its so fun and full of whimsy that you don't really care, and I'd be fine with it. My beef with DMC4 is that it's set up to be somewhat serious but then gives up in the middle of it. Also it's in dire need of a Ghost Ship stage.
ShinMaruku
Member
DMC2 should be redone as DMC4. Take what they learned and freshen it up. Also use Majin Dante for the final fight.
Yeah, you need all of the abilities he gains throughout the course of the game. Aegis Shield is the last one.
Thanks. I was hoping not to have to play as Nero again, but maybe that can be my Human play thru since the difficulty trophies don't stack.
That'd be preferable - unlike DMC playing their supporting cast's archetypes straight, MGR and Bayonetta benefited greatly by trying to make characters other than the protagonist interesting, endearing or at least fun in their own right - compare the presentation of Alraune to Echidna, Father Balder to Sanctus or Yamato to Madama Butterfly. The worldbuilding actually helps a lot as well - Bayonetta's journals and MGR's codecs allow their world to be fleshed out in a way that DMC's never was, without detracting from the pace of the game.