Bo_Hazem
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First party devs are going to be doing amazing stuff with the SSD actually. Its going to make a big difference.Lets be honest with ourselves the SSD's in these systems will be just for faster loading times, that is about it. Just like they are used today on PC's (gaming wise). Developers (other than 1st party) are not gonna take the extra time to do most of this fancy stuff that people are parroting.
We will see less pop-in, and faster loading times. Thats is all you really need. The updated specs of both consoles will result in better resolutions and better performance (hopefully).
So gears of war 5 ran on Xbox one and ran on top end PC’s with much much higher settings. Was the Xbox one holding them back?
First party devs are going to be doing amazing stuff with the SSD actually. Its going to make a big difference.
So gears of war 5 ran on Xbox one and ran on top end PC’s with much much higher settings. Was the Xbox one holding them back?
PS5 1st party games and 3rd party devs who choose to take advantage of PS5 SSD will develop games based on 5.5GB/s of IO throughput. Like Cerny says, you only load into RAM what is needed for 1 second of gameplay. Whereas current gen you need to load 30 seconds into RAM, because the IO is so slow. Therefore in current gen, a lot of the RAM is left unused, filled with 30 seconds of data "just in case". PS5 devs will be streaming that data into memory as you turn the camera in-game, for example. This requires massive, reliably fast IO. And according to many, many people, will lead to revolutionary new game ideas.Held back how exactly?
Actually, now that I reflect even more on this, the SSD is really meant as a buffer for memory limitations isn't it? On PC, theoretically, devs can get over this by simply bumping up the minimum memory requirements of the PC version to like about 24 gb. So 3rd party support can happen as long as they ensure 24 gb minimum becomes a standard on PC.Pretty much. 1st party will use it and it will be fantastic. 3rd party will shy away because they will want it on as many system as possible.
There are only two 3rd party caveats. One can come from platform holder sponsorship, where Sony or MS sponsors the game and gets the best version with watered down ports for the rest. OR a console sells significantly more than the rest warranting it as the defecto target platform.
Fundamentally, games on Xbox will be limited due to all their games also being PC compatible where practically everyone is still running mech HDs/slow SSDs. XSX devs will never be able to take advantage of the SSD properly, even in their exclusives. It's going to be at least 4-7 years before SSDs will become the standard in PC-land. Not to mention the Xbone which their games also have to run on.
Bottom line is only on PS5 will we see developers truly pushing the new game ideas and concepts that are made possible by blazingly fast SSD. Not saying XSX isn't capable of doing what PS5 will do, just that you won't see it due to the issues I mentioned above.
First party devs are going to be doing amazing stuff with the SSD actually. Its going to make a big difference.
Here's a little reassurance from a ND dev if you won't take it from me :I hope you’re right. Guess we will find out in the not too distant future
Cerny's soothing voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Spencer's thick body
Anyone notice cerny was looking thiner?
Maybe all the stress of dealing with a 36cu gpu and lackluster BC?
I'm not a game developer and I don't have the answer for what kind of games can come about through the use of PS5's SSD, but someone I do trust in is John Linneman and he says it's the biggest innovation in 20 years and I choose to believe it. He didn't say the same about XSX because MS took a fundamentally different approach and as far as I can see, the only true benefit there is faster load times compared to mechanical harddrives. That's not innovation in the truest sense of the word.Im dying to know what this additional bandwidth the ps5 has will enable devs to achieve that they cant do with less bandwidth! Microsoft next gen games will likely require PCs to have ssds of a similar spec to the XSX.
I totally agree with you here, most things will be possible on XSX that are possible on PS5. It's just the PC and Xbone holding devs back therefore you just won't see them, even though it may be technically feasible.It depends what goals the devs have, i dont think the ps5 will do things that cant be done on xsx.
I would equate it more to dial up internet (Xbox platform) and broadband(PS5). When everyone had dialup, you got the internet, many great things came from the Internet. It was cheap(using existing phonelines), and yeah, you could download stuff like video to watch at very slow speeds. Even though fast broadband existed in the age of dialup, it didn't make sense for services such as Netflix or Youtube, game streaming to exist because not many people had fast broadband. Probably not many people foresaw what pervasive fast broadband would bring us, but also, a lot of people could feel and sense the potential.Its like i need to drive to work everyday, today (current gen) I have a very old honda civic, it does the job but could be a lot better, i have a choice of two new cars (next gen) , a tesla model S (xsx) and a tesla model s p100 (ps5) while the p100 maybe be more fun to drive the model s does every thing i need it too.
I can't see MS doing this, because it would likely cause a major backlash in the PC community, but certainly it's something they need to do.Microsoft next gen games will likely require PCs to have ssds of a similar spec to the XSX.
It's just not as simple as 8GB/s vs 4.8GB/s. It's down to fundamentally how the systems were designed, the goals and whole business model surrounding the respective platforms. Once PS5 releases, all SWWS will shift focus to PS5 and develop games solely for PS5 and targeting 8GB/s. All Xbox devs will still be developing games that can run on IO on 100MB/s.im wary on how radical a difference between a 8gb/s vs 4.8gb/s will be. Especially when we consider the extra 112gb/s additional ram bandwidth on the XsX.
Nimble as fuck manYup, people will get embarrassed when PS5 1st party show up. Might end up being more athletic, Olympic and XSX be more of a bodybuilder type.
Anyone notice cerny was looking thiner?
Maybe all the stress of dealing with a 36cu gpu and lackluster BC?
I'm not a game developer and I don't have the answer for what kind of games can come about through the use of PS5's SSD, but someone I do trust in is John Linneman and he says it's the biggest innovation in 20 years and I choose to believe it. He didn't say the same about XSX because MS took a fundamentally different approach and as far as I can see, the only true benefit there is faster load times compared to mechanical harddrives. That's not innovation in the truest sense of the word.
I totally agree with you here, most things will be possible on XSX that are possible on PS5. It's just the PC and Xbone holding devs back therefore you just won't see them, even though it may be technically feasible.
I would equate it more to dial up internet (Xbox platform) and broadband(PS5). When everyone had dialup, you got the internet, many great things came from the Internet. It was cheap(using existing phonelines), and yeah, you could download stuff like video to watch at very slow speeds. Even though fast broadband existed in the age of dialup, it didn't make sense for services such as Netflix or Youtube, game streaming to exist because not many people had fast broadband. Probably not many people foresaw what pervasive fast broadband would bring us, but also, a lot of people could feel and sense the potential.
I can't see MS doing this, because it would likely cause a major backlash in the PC community, but certainly it's something they need to do.
It's just not as simple as 8GB/s vs 4.8GB/s. It's down to fundamentally how the systems were designed, the goals and whole business model surrounding the respective platforms. Once PS5 releases, all SWWS will shift focus to PS5 and develop games solely for PS5 and targeting 8GB/s. All Xbox devs will still be developing games that can run on IO on 100MB/s.
I want a mark cerny asmr.
so they won't make any game on the ps5 and the ps4 for the next few years?PS5 1st party games and 3rd party devs who choose to take advantage of PS5 SSD will develop games based on 5.5GB/s of IO throughput. Like Cerny says, you only load into RAM what is needed for 1 second of gameplay. Whereas current gen you need to load 30 seconds into RAM, because the IO is so slow. Therefore in current gen, a lot of the RAM is left unused, filled with 30 seconds of data "just in case". PS5 devs will be streaming that data into memory as you turn the camera in-game, for example. This requires massive, reliably fast IO. And according to many, many people, will lead to revolutionary new game ideas.
What these games will be is unknown right now and the potential is completely untapped and unexplored. There are ideas flying around, but you'd have to assume that some devs will create something amazing with 100x IO throughput.
Now, lets say you're on Xbox and want to develop the same theoretical game that requires this massive IO throughput, you might be able to do it on XSX, but how do you get the game to run on Xbone, which has a HD that's 100x slower? How do you get the game to run on PC where most people have machanical HDs? You don't. You target the lowest common donominator, which is the mechanical hard drive, because everyone needs to be able to run the game. You'd end up just not making that game or at least changing it in such a way that it really just wouldn't be pushing the limits of what the SSD of XSX is capable of... except for loading speed.
XSX will be running prettier version of today's games, but due to being held back by PC and Xbone, we won't see any games pushing that SSD in ways that are impossible on previous gen and PC. Again, except for loading speeds. It'll be faster at loading a game than PC or Xbone. That's it.
Unless MS change their policy of every 1st party game coming to PC and supporting Xbone, you're going to see far more game innovation on Playstation.
Whether you believe having an SSD in PS5 will lead to innovative gaming ideas is open to debate. You maybe don't or won't until you actually see it with your own eyes...
What John is saying sounds pretty right to me! I don't want to down play GPU power, but I promise everybody that you will be absolutely blown away by visuals on both consoles. However, the SSDs are the big difference when coming into this gen. We're not talking about "load times" in the classic sense. That's an antiquated way of thinking about data coming from your hard drive. For the last 10+ years we've been streaming worlds on the fly. The problem is that our assets are absolutely huge now, as are our draw distances, and our hard drives can't keep up. It means that as you move through the world we're trying to detect and even predict what assets need loading. Tons of constraints get put into place due to this streaming speed.
An ultra fast drive like the one in PS5 means you could be load in the highest level LOD asset for your models way further than you could before and make worlds any way you want without worry of it streaming in fast enough. The PS5 drive is so fast I imagine you could load up entire neighborhoods in a city with all of their maps at super high resolution in a blink of an eye. It's exciting. People don't realize that this will also affect visuals in a big way. If we can stream in bigger worlds and stream in the highest detail texture maps available, it will just look so much better.
I think the Xbox drive is also good! The PS5 drive is just "dream level" architecture though.
Here is a ND developer's explanation since you won't believe me:
Maybe fanboys, 98% of the millions of people making the purchase don't even know or understand what a terraflop is, actually neither do most of the fanboys on this site.Meh. Tflops is all people care about.
My internet speed analogy on ssd
Current gen: 56k
Xsx: 400mbit/s
PS5: 800mbit/s
Yes, it's designed to work for Xbox One, and only got resolution, ray tracing, and fps bump. Wait to see 1st party games exclusives for next gen to grasp what's possible, or maybe 3rd party games made exclusively for next gen with NVMe requirement for PC's.
Couldn't be more wrong. MS's SSD isn't designed to have instantaneous seek time that ps5 gets thanks to its dedicated DMAC (that has the power of 1 or 2 Zen2 cores) and the I/O coprocessors. Then the ps5 has more than twice Xbox's bandwidth, add to that the compression system (KRAKEN) that gives 9 GB/s throughput post compression and it creates an immense difference. Xbox's SSD is just not designed to work like the ps5's ssd to create a revolutionary shift in game data access.Yea. He is excited for an SSD. Xbox series X also has an SSD. So he is excited for series x too.
He doesn’t say he is excited for ps5 ssd or PS5 super fast ssd.
Ssd is ssd. This is the most important thing.
Couldn't be more wrong.
Who? Sony themselves? I seriously doubt any of their AAA studios will produce games for PS4 anymore once PS5 releases.so they won't make any game on the ps5 and the ps4 for the next few years?
did they stop producing ps3 games as soon as the ps4 launched? also didn't they say they were planning to support the ps4 for 10 years?Who? Sony themselves? I seriously doubt any of their AAA studios will produce games for PS4 anymore once PS5 releases.
yep.did they stop producing ps3 games as soon as the ps4 launched?
not so simple, maybe:
Current gen: 56k
Xsx: 50-400mbit/s @ 100ms ping
PS5: 800mbit/s @ 1ms ping
would be closer. It is just not all about pure transfer speed
there was games still made for ps3 a good time after ps4 launched, Fifa 19 was the last ps3 game madeyep.
Are suggesting otherwise?
SSD is the new Cell Processor
Kinda.
It does kinda feel more like the PS3 than the PS5 as far as “developers need to think outside the box to maximize the gains” style of programming, instead of just offering a simple brute force option.
Couldn't be more wrong. MS's SSD isn't designed to have instantaneous seek time that ps5 gets thanks to its dedicated DMAC (that has the power of 1 or 2 Zen2 cores) and the I/O coprocessors. Then the ps5 has more than twice Xbox's bandwidth, add to that the compression system (KRAKEN) that gives 9 GB/s throughput post compression and it creates an immense difference. Xbox's SSD is just not designed to work like the ps5's ssd to create a revolutionary shift in game data access.
They mentioned that the problem of limits and downclocking is going to be minimal. And in alot of ways the SSD IS a brute force option.
The Xbox's SSD times are revolutionary too. Just not as good as PS5's. XSX also put work into its SSD technology to remove overheads and provide newer possibilities.
Of course this is yet to be determined, but the solution of streaming data from the PS5 seems to be more elegant than the XSX. Not to say XSX isn't advanced, it's just that Sony clearly threw more at its solution.
While XSX has controllers and tech designed to kind of optimize what's being passed from SSD into RAM, Sony's solution seems to just say "You can get whatever whenever, just take it/dump it, it's so fast the player can't even notice, it doesn't even matter."
So both are going to be crazy, but the extremes in practice have yet to be seen.
Honestly, the REAL revolutionary thing out of this gen is sounding like PS5's focus on 3D Audio. If that actually works out, i can imagine it's going to be something that can really drive experiences over the edge.
Doesn't xbox have 3d Audio too? https://mspoweruser.com/xbox-series-x-audio-hardware-accelerated-3d-audio/They mentioned that the problem of limits and downclocking is going to be minimal. And in alot of ways the SSD IS a brute force option.
The Xbox's SSD times are revolutionary too. Just not as good as PS5's. XSX also put work into its SSD technology to remove overheads and provide newer possibilities.
Of course this is yet to be determined, but the solution of streaming data from the PS5 seems to be more elegant than the XSX. Not to say XSX isn't advanced, it's just that Sony clearly threw more at its solution.
While XSX has controllers and tech designed to kind of optimize what's being passed from SSD into RAM, Sony's solution seems to just say "You can get whatever whenever, just take it/dump it, it's so fast the player can't even notice, it doesn't even matter."
So both are going to be crazy, but the extremes in practice have yet to be seen.
Honestly, the REAL revolutionary thing out of this gen is sounding like PS5's focus on 3D Audio. If that actually works out, i can imagine it's going to be something that can really drive experiences over the edge.
Just watched the DF video. That was very good, very helpful in understanding what the SSD can do. If I'm understanding correctly, the fact that it's twice as fast as the Xbox SSD will give Sony's SSD that much more ability to assist in memory operations. That may go some distance to narrowing the raw TF gap.
I was happy to learn about the 3-D audio. I do think audio gets short shrift in games (although I admit I give it short shrift myself by listening through TV speakers). What they are doing sounds innovative. I hope it works. I'll have to invest in a good pair of headphones.
Question about the audio: Since this is a proprietary Sony chip, does that mean that games will need to be designed with this chip in mind, in order to utilize it? If so, how many 3rd party developers do you think will use it? Or will it be only Sony first party studios that take advantage of it?
Personally, I’m very excited for the audio performance. It’s a selling point for me.
how many people favor audio over visuals, though?
Doesn't xbox have 3d Audio too? https://mspoweruser.com/xbox-series-x-audio-hardware-accelerated-3d-audio/
My point still stands. Series X doesn't have seek times needed(and quite likely the bandwidth) for instant access of high quality assets. Does it have an SSD? Yes. Does the SSD provide for more efficient use of RAM due to scenes not having to be pre loaded 30 seconds ahead of time? Yes. But will it allow loading of data on a frame by frame basis that actually gives you much higher visual quality? NO based on info currently available.