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"Did Batman Kill The Joker At The End Of The Killing Joke?"
- Thread starter Dalek
- Start date
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I've never seen the needle theory before, but I think it has merit.
He wants to help him, but he's also not going to give him an ultimatum that includes a death threat, since that's exactly what Joker seems to want anyways.
It's ambiguous, and the only thing I 100% believe at this point is that Moore wanted it that way. The main thing that frustrates me is anyone pointing towards "proof" of one theory or the other, considering that just about every piece of supposed "proof" has been used effectively as evidence for both arguments.
He wants to help him, but he's also not going to give him an ultimatum that includes a death threat, since that's exactly what Joker seems to want anyways.
It's ambiguous, and the only thing I 100% believe at this point is that Moore wanted it that way. The main thing that frustrates me is anyone pointing towards "proof" of one theory or the other, considering that just about every piece of supposed "proof" has been used effectively as evidence for both arguments.
Arrowgigantic
Member
Joker stopped laughing and was struck dumb when he realized Batman was really laughing. That's it. Joker just suddenly stopped laughing. Isn't that more dramatic than Batman stopping him laughing by killing him?
Pinko Marx
Banned
I agree, it's entirely open to interpretation. I'm just offering my view of it.
CloudyTuba
Member
Yeah I think when you really get down to it, there isn't any real evidence of a murder happening. I actually like the idea of Batman finally snapping so that's the interpretation I'll go with personally, but I dont pretend that the panels back it up. Only that they are ambiguous enough for me to pretend it's the truth.
Haha beautiful. Not man nor machine will stand in Crazy Batman's way.
Arrowgigantic
Member
He strangled the ambulance's lights, which turn off in the final panel for some reason.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
What do you mean "for some reason"? How would you see the last panel with no lights? The message couldn't be any clearer.
Surface of Me
I'm not an NPC. And neither are we.
The lights at the end of the panel go off because they saw Batman kill the Joker and realized an ambulance was no longer needed.
Nah, Babs had to know by then that Bruce was broken as fuck. She probably wouldn't be too surprised.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
"Fuck it, he looks pretty dead from here. Hit the lights and lets just sit here in the dark and hope Batman doesn't come for us next."
TheGreatDirector
Banned
It's obvious that Batman strangled the artist before he could clear up the ending.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
That's a cop car coming towards them right? The noise just stops because they just witnessed Batman kill the Joker.
But then again, they could've stopped because they saw the bats laughing at with the Joker. That's the "Killing Joke". Them both going crazy.
But then again, they could've stopped because they saw the bats laughing at with the Joker. That's the "Killing Joke". Them both going crazy.
why would they turn off their sirens if they witnessed a murder
i thought that other guy was joking
No, the Killing Joke is the joke he tells on the previous page, which makes the following page make more sense if Batman DOESN'T kill Joker.
The fact that Batman breaks kayfabe is enough.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
Because it's batman seen committing the murder. Then again, why would the sirens just stop? Or why would there be no more laughter? Why does EVERYTHING just stop?
Because it's meant to be a bookend to the beginning of the book. The 'camera' pulls in so close to the rippling puddle that all other sounds and sights are relegated to non-essential.
TheWorthyEdge
Member
So then how could anyone deduct that neither Batman killed the Joker or they both lived from this?
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Police always turn their lights off when they see a murder.
Because there is nothing to suggest anything more happened than them standing there laughing.
Maybe Superman showed up and rescued Joker. Maybe Joker hopped in a police car and drove away. Personally, I think Alfred was just dreaming and Bruce was really dead since we never saw which man in the box stopped spinning.
Because there is nothing to suggest anything more happened than them standing there laughing.
Maybe Superman showed up and rescued Joker. Maybe Joker hopped in a police car and drove away. Personally, I think Alfred was just dreaming and Bruce was really dead since we never saw which man in the box stopped spinning.
That's the point innit?
Jack Scofield
Member
I can't even make sense of the bottom three panels. What are they supposed to be?
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
Zooming in on the big puddle of water under them.
Pyccko
Member
So I always figured he killed him, mostly just because that would be more interesting to me. But rereading it recently I noticed a parallel in the art of that last page and some earlier ones. I don't have any pictures, but earlier in the story when Gordon is in the funhouse ride there are panels of the car going through a series of gates/doors that are all ajar, with a solid black line as an opening in very colorfully designed doors, zooming in so the dark gaps get bigger with each door. Joker's purpose in putting Gordon through the ride is to drive him insane and break his spirit, right? The parallel in the art made me see the last panels with the line of color in the darkness disappearing as it zooms in as Bats veering off from the light, succumbing to his insanity and killing Joker.
Well that's how I look at it anyways.
Well that's how I look at it anyways.
liliththepale
Banned
I agree with Alan Moore. The Killing Joke isn't very good. Joker quits his day job to try to be a comedian. When that doesn't work out, instead of going back to his day job, he takes on a highly illegal and highly dangerous mob job. He doesn't have just one bad day like he said, he's had to have a whole shit ton of bad days to make such poor judgement. Then his family randomly dying is really contrived, too.
That said, I appreciate the ending more if Batman doesn't kill Joker. Batman already breaks by laughing at Joker's joke. He doesn't need to break again by killing Joker.
That said, I appreciate the ending more if Batman doesn't kill Joker. Batman already breaks by laughing at Joker's joke. He doesn't need to break again by killing Joker.
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
I agree that it's a pretty mediocre book. But, the kind of lame origin story is redeemed by the fact Joker bails out on it at the end. I think that's the best part of the story. You're told the entire time that this is it, and then at the end he's just like "fuck it, I don't actually know that's how it happened." That's pretty good.
liliththepale
Banned
Yeah, that part is great. It's one of the things that Nolan took from the book.
Northeastmonk
Gold Member
He shuts him up. I don't necessarily think he's dead. IMO TKJ makes Batman stand out regardless. I would say it's made Batman stand out in terms of comics period. It's not a bad read at all. I also feel that there are a lot worse arcs and comics like this. Even The Joker stands out because they tell a darker story than your typical comic book. I feel that everyone has taken things out of context over the years. I feel that the Batgirl cover should have been published because you're holding everything back. You're saying that in 2015 super heroes can't have a dark side.
We would have never had super heroes such as Spawn if this idea would have been around years ago. IMO the ending scene to TKJ is left up to your imagination. Lots of things do that. Over the years we have lost countless qualities do to some sorta observational analysis. I personally would like to see more darker tales than outright horror. It gives the reader an alternative to the average everyday hero.
We would have never had super heroes such as Spawn if this idea would have been around years ago. IMO the ending scene to TKJ is left up to your imagination. Lots of things do that. Over the years we have lost countless qualities do to some sorta observational analysis. I personally would like to see more darker tales than outright horror. It gives the reader an alternative to the average everyday hero.
Rimon-hanit
Member
Oh, I read it a week ago I thought he did, didn't know the accepted view was that he didn't, then again I only read complete self contained volumes, so I don't fellow any issue to issue continuity.
EDIT:Btw does anyone know if there is a good performance of the song in that story?
EDIT:Btw does anyone know if there is a good performance of the song in that story?
People always talk about "what if he killed the joker" but they never mention how crazy it is that Batman break kayfabe because of a stupid joke. Even though Batman doesn't kill indiscriminately like Joker they are only separated by a tenuous thread that in that moment is gone.
Batman doesn't have to kill the joker at that point for him to have won cause Bruce gave up on him there.
I've read The Killing Joke a couple of times and never thought about how implausible Joker's origin is. Learn something new everyday lol.
exmachina64
Banned
What Superman story was it?
Yeah… but… so?
It's a pretty shitty book if that is "the whole point"
There is absolutely nothing interesting in the reading that Batman wouldn't do it because that would violate his code and prove the Joker right - so I'm not interested in that interpretation even if it's probably correct.
I mean, that's the basic moral of like 60% of super hero stories.
The idea that Batman is closer to the Joker than Jim… That at least make Jim Gordon a little more special.
Alan Moore had Batman kill the Joker as much as DC would let him.
Also this :
Also this :
Is pretty much bullshit seeing how DC didn't have any plans for Barbara Gordon after the Killing Joke. It's only thanks to Kim Yale and John Ostrander that Barbara Gordon came back as Oracle in the first run of the Suicide Squad story.
exmachina64
Banned
Thanks.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
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