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"Did Batman Kill The Joker At The End Of The Killing Joke?"
- Thread starter Dalek
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UltraGunner
Banned
He'll go on a 40 minute rant about how comics and comic readers are shit and then smoke 15 spliffs and then pass out.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
When I read it the first time, I just thought typical cut to black, he's back in Arkham Asylum.
Nowadays, I still think that. Batman didn't kill the Joker. And I realise, I didn't understand the Joke back in the day and I still don't. Can someone explain ? lol.
Nowadays, I still think that. Batman didn't kill the Joker. And I realise, I didn't understand the Joke back in the day and I still don't. Can someone explain ? lol.
I've always taken it to be 100% ambiguous. Seems impossible to state definitively either way and screw continuity Moore clearly wrote this as a self contained separate tale. just because DC wove it in themselves doesn't invalidate the ambiguity of the piece on it's own.
Batman places his hands on his shoulders, dangerously near his throat. They laugh together. Then the laughter seems to stop but we don't see why. Could Batman have shared a last laugh with Joker then decided to end him? Sure. Could he simply take Joker into custody and the laughter stops as Batman turns Joker and steers him towards incarceration? Sure.
It ends on a knife edge and leaves the reader there. I like it even though I know many always want to find a definitive definition.
Myself I still think they're stuck there, trapped in a quantum moment of shared madness at their condition and what it's led to up to that point together in the rain.
Batman places his hands on his shoulders, dangerously near his throat. They laugh together. Then the laughter seems to stop but we don't see why. Could Batman have shared a last laugh with Joker then decided to end him? Sure. Could he simply take Joker into custody and the laughter stops as Batman turns Joker and steers him towards incarceration? Sure.
It ends on a knife edge and leaves the reader there. I like it even though I know many always want to find a definitive definition.
Myself I still think they're stuck there, trapped in a quantum moment of shared madness at their condition and what it's led to up to that point together in the rain.
I always took it as this. From my perspective, it's about de-escalation. Joker went this far in this book, because he felt that no one understood that he had a bad day and has never been able to recover for that. As terrible as everything he did was, this was all part of a cry for help, for understanding. This was Batman, for once in his long career, showing some amount of sympathy. In Batman's mind, it is giving the Joker the two things he wants so badly: to see a crack in the Dark Knight's shell and feel like someone, anyone understands him. Batman following Gordon's advice found another way. This wouldn't save the Joker or even spare future victims, but this small (or big, depending) act of compassion could at least bring the Joker some semblance of peace. This would ensure future crimes would be less heinous, as they would be acts of psychosis rather than desperation.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I think it's a big enough deal that he made Batman laugh honestly. That's The Joker killing Batman in a way.
Freedom = $1.05
Banned
Alpha Centauri
Member
This has convinced me.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I always thought Batman killed the Joker at the end.
It's called The Killing Joke.
It's called The Killing Joke.
He's probably wondering why everyone's still discussing a comic he doesn't even think is very good.
The joke is about two insane guys (representing Batman and the Joker). They decide that they are going to escape the asylum they are being held in (joining normality). The only thing stopping them is a jump across a "narrow gap". The first guy, representing Batman, jumps across easily. The second guy, representing the Joker, is too afraid that he won't make the jump (he doesn't believe he will ever get to normality).
So the first guy offers to shine a beam of light across the gap for the second guy to walk on (something that can't be done; the offer Batman is making for help is impossible). But the final line, "You'd turn it off when I was half way across!", shows that the impossibility isn't what bothers the second guy (the Joker), but the fact that he believes the first guy (Batman) wouldn't actually help him all the way across, but instead purposefully send him plummeting (back to insanity).
So Batman laughs, realizing that there is no peaceful resolution to his conflict with the Joker.
Mhm, this makes a lot of sense and seems like something that Moore would do. I like it!
captainnapalm
Member
What makes that moment work and what makes it disturbing and weird and poignant is them sharing that laugh after everything that's happened. It's an acknowledgement of a fundamental aspect of absurdity inherent in human existence. That the notion of good vs evil may be all bullshit - or seem like it at times.
It's not an unfamiliar theme in Moore's work - the symbolism of the smiley face in Watchmen is exploring a similar idea.
When I first read it as a kid I "got" that moment, even though I couldn't really explain it. I never thought he killed the Joker.
It's not an unfamiliar theme in Moore's work - the symbolism of the smiley face in Watchmen is exploring a similar idea.
When I first read it as a kid I "got" that moment, even though I couldn't really explain it. I never thought he killed the Joker.
Since this is Frank Miller Batman we're talking about, I'm sure he jerks off to the idea every night.
Right. The joke is the how the first inmate is completely oblivious to his own safety, let alone that defying gravity and physics is no concern, but trust another person? Lol, nope.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Wow. I don't remember reading that page. That last panel... geez.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
PorygonVandal
Member
TheJollyCorner
Member
wait.... hold up... there's some kind of crazy Cameron Theory for Ferris Bueller's Day Off? 
wait.... hold up... there's some kind of crazy Cameron Theory for Ferris Bueller's Day Off?
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It's certainly not the kind of thing Batman would want everybody seeing...
WAR recon zero
Banned
Thanks for the spoiler.
Escape Goat
Member
wait.... hold up... there's some kind of crazy Cameron Theory for Ferris Bueller's Day Off?
Cameron is crazy. Ferris is a personality Cameron invented to cope with his shitty life.
I so rarely get to call this going this direction but: Alan Moore does know that Batman is American, right?
Batman saying "sort this blood mess out" and "needn't". SMH. C'mon, Moore. Americans do not talk like that. Not even an old money east coast socialite like Bruce Wayne. Certainly not in 1988. If it wasn't Alan Moore writing, Editorial would be all over that shit.
The line he's stuck to over these years is basically his comics are as good as it ever got and everyone else has just been infinitely ripping him off ever since. More or less.
The Joker doesn't feel he can trust anyone, not even himself. Also remember that to the Joker, Batman is who Bruce Wayne really is, the secret identity means nothing, other than opportunities to cause Batman strife.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
How does that go against the theory? Batman's telling Joker that this was his last chance to accept help and he responds by saying that's an impossibility. Given the story's meant to be outside of cannon it makes sense that it ends with Batman killing Joker after he just gave him that ultimatum.
captainnapalm
Member
I remember reading that Brian Bolland spent two years of his life drawing the Killing Joke, and it shows.
It's certainly some of the most iconic Batman art ever and probably the most definitive portrayal ever of the Joker.
The impression I get is that he views himself as above the industry and that his stuff is untouchable
Thats interesting. I've seen that movie so many times but it was only a couple of years ago that I realized Ferris Buehler wasn't a teenager, or at least his POV, his perspective is not one of a teenager.
but does he? I don't remember reading anything like that. Detractors overblowing things as usual
He doesn't hate comics as he continues to write them.
There are aspects of the comic industry he dislikes. Most recently I believe he railed about comics being the snake eating its own tail.
He's harshly criticized his own works on multiple occasions.
The Miyazaki gif fits far better for Moore. He really dislikes where comics went. He also dislikes adaptions of his work. And every work that sprngs from his work. He dislikes a lot of things actually.
jim-jam bongs
Member
He both did and didn't. Ask yourself what's more upsetting to you personally; the idea that The Joker is going to keep murdering people because Batman won't kill him, or that he could drive the world's most incorruptible symbol of justice to break his single biggest rule?
Answer that and that's the answer.
Answer that and that's the answer.
Mac the KNife
Member
I really like this explanation. Thanks for sharing.
I never read this book and don't know the history but from the images and script in the OP I don't see any way to interpret it as batman killing the joker
I did come into this thread assuming the opposite considering the title. The posts advocating the idea that batman killed him are very unconvincing though
The light doesn't go out, the last panels are just zooming in until you don't see anything but the dark part of the puddle -- it's described this way in the script
I did come into this thread assuming the opposite considering the title. The posts advocating the idea that batman killed him are very unconvincing though
The light doesn't go out, the last panels are just zooming in until you don't see anything but the dark part of the puddle -- it's described this way in the script
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again? :(
Super old news, but, no, he didn't.
Batman Didn't Kill the Joker
Unless he leaned on him to death.
Honestly, Joker's done FAR worse than just cripple Barbara and mess with Gordon. If Batman was ever going to kill the Joker, it would have been during a different story...
I couldn't understand this manga until I realized its read from left-to-right instead of how one would normally read manga. But seriously, the art is awful and the story doesn't seem very good. You can't even see the bat men in any of the panels. One really does need a deep sense of honor to do art.
I do think its a testament to hunger we or foreign land has for art that such a nuanced and obvious detail is argued about. If anyone is interested in seeing my Manga reading list, just IM me. I would have posted my signature image with the info but I heard GAF frowns on quality topical images of that variety
I couldn't understand this manga until I realized its read from left-to-right instead of how one would normally read manga. But seriously, the art is awful and the story doesn't seem very good. You can't even see the bat men in any of the panels. One really does need a deep sense of honor to do art.
I do think its a testament to hunger we or foreign land has for art that such a nuanced and obvious detail is argued about. If anyone is interested in seeing my Manga reading list, just IM me. I would have posted my signature image with the info but I heard GAF frowns on quality topical images of that variety
hipbabboom
Huh? What did I say? Did I screw up again?
Joined: 08-22-2013
Schweinehund
Member
First he's speculating by saying "maybe this is our last chance" and when he says that they're locked onto a suicide course he's just affirming that he'll work to stop Joker until the day they both die. It doesn't make sense that just because Joker says it's an impossibility that Batman would now decide "fuck it, I'm gonna kill him." Killing Joke is partly about who these two characters are and it showcases that they will not err in their ways no matter the circumstance. For Batman it was Barbara being crippled and having nude photos taken of her, for Joker it was his very rival offering him an out.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
He kills him and then commits suicide, hence the empty last panel.
Escape Goat
Member
Batman clearly snaps the police's necks. Rides off with Joker.
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