Mr Moose
Member
Lots of games on PS3 had a lower resolution than the 360 version.
As for your last question, yes. Ground Zeroes and Call of Duty Ghosts, both 720p/60fps on Xbox One while 1080p/60fps on PS4. (And The Golf Club, whatever that is).
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Digital Foundry: Face-Off: PES 2015
- Thread starter ElTorro
- Start date
Lots of games on PS3 had a lower resolution than the 360 version.
As for your last question, yes. Ground Zeroes and Call of Duty Ghosts, both 720p/60fps on Xbox One while 1080p/60fps on PS4. (And The Golf Club, whatever that is).
Doesnt scale well at all, i dont believe there is any excuse if majority of games on Xbox are hitting higher resolutions and look better.
Nestunt
Member
How many friends do you have on PSN?
No, they have chosen something that works on 3 out of 4 consoles.
Please tell me more about all the advantages and disadvantages of both in your own words.
CambriaRising
Member
Luckily I don't have to.
http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/forward-rendering-vs-deferred-rendering--gamedev-12342
(Thanks to Hasney for linking this earlier)
But let's be honest, most devs tried to adjust their engines to use the PS3, it just took a lot longer as the Cell was something you had to get used to and required a lot of work to get it running in a decent way.
Mohonky
Member
Not to this extent, some games had res differences, asset differences etc. but we're talking about a game that is using only 44% of what the other console is doing.
Can you homestly say there has been any other game in the past 2 generations that was twice as good on one console as the other? I cant think of any.
You know, I actually have no idea. I should check that tonight and wind my neck in for now.
Mr Moose
Member
Bayonetta.
Chobel
Member
Bayonetta? Madden 2008?....
CambriaRising
Member
The games are identical outside of the resolution difference and some other minor graphical things. I don't think I would call that "twice as good".
It wasn't just the cell, it was a very similar problem to what we have here. 360 had 512mb of RAM shared as well as the 10mb EDRAM that could be used however you like and was quite often used for "free" AA.
PS3 having 256mb that could only be used for the system and 256mb that could only be used video card and no fast RAM was a bigger hurdle than programming for the cell ever was. I still took a few years until there were consistently games that were very similar on both platforms, excluding the PS3 lead-platform games.
Thankfully forward+ is better than forward: http://de.slideshare.net/takahiroharada/forward-34779335
Mohonky
Member
Ground Zeroes is the same engine........and Ghosts was a shit show all round, Advanced Warfare clearly shows this.
And yes there were PS3 games with a lower res, but there wasnt that big a resolution difference, again, xbone is only doing 44% of what the PS4 is doing here.
It seriously wasnt half as bad as the 360 version, unless the PS3 frame rate was in the teens most of the time......
Mohonky
Member
Pixel count difference, PS4 is pushing more than half the pixels more.
Again, that depends on if you need the esRAM for other things. The more lighting and shadows you have, the harder it would be to even consider using forward+ on the XB1. There isn't a one size fits all solution to everything.
It would be interesting to have a slice of GZ converted to Forward+ to see what tradeoffs that would give, because there is a fuck load of lighting going off in that and it may actually hamstring the XB1 more.
RowdyReverb
Member
Man, I really hope they can get MGS V above 720p on XB1 by the time that comes out. I'd be happy with "1080pr". 720p is the point at which I start to notice the lower resolution.
Mr Moose
Member
Did you check the % difference between 360 and PS3 games?
Also: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-bayonetta-faceoff
Mohonky
Member
To be fair, the Xbone didnt look like it had grass, it kind of more just looked like a large green smear.
LukasTaves
Member
DF has larger memory requirements, but it's actually lighter on the gpu because you just run a pass over the geometry storing on big fat buffers and just reuse them to compute the lighting (while in a foward render every light requires a redrawn of the scene).
Xbone "have a problem" with it because it has only 32mb of esram which may not be enough to fill a fat 1080p buffer at once, but the main issue here is that the console wasn't designed in the first place for filling it all at once.
Holding them all in esram is precisely the problem. The console wasn't designed that way, the move engines, the way the gpu virtualized access, it was all designed for a stream-like scenario where data is streamed into esram, the gpu consumes and then it's streamed out.
Dunno whether it's Ms' tools or devs using non adapted engines who are at fault here, but other teams already managed to improve their first try efforts on xbone, and with Fox engine looks like zero improvements were made.
CambriaRising
Member
I know this is just semantics but "half" and "twice as good" is a difference of like 50%.
It was much worse than what's going on here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-bayonetta-faceoff
Engineers from MS were allegedly sent over to Konami so fingers crossed that is the case. Both hoping that people get to play a fantastic looking game in the best enviroment, but also hoping that MS do find a solution that plays well with deferred rendering in general so other 3rd party devs can use it more in the future.
Only resolution is important. Maybe phrase grass in terms of grassolution and I'm in.
I've seen you post several times about using the move engines for that thing, but which game has made those improvements you speak of and where can I see their post-mortems? (Or just technical slides)
Because it's not deferred rendered, due to which there is more bandwidth available for MSAA.
If I am not wrong then as of now there are only four 60FPS deferred rendered games on XB1....BF4, MGS:GZ, Plant vs Zombies and PES15....three of which are 720p and the other has a simple visual style.
Gamezone
Gold Member
I didn`t see any huge difference in the video. Might just be Youtube.
Playground didn't use it in a standard way and adjusted it to fit to the game as described here: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2014-the-making-of-forza-horizon-2
On a banned site there is to read: "Forza Horizon 2′s Forward Plus Rendering Tech Lets it Display Thousands of Dynamic Lights in Real Time"
It would really be interesting to see how GZ would run if the renderer would more consider the special architecture of Xbox One.
I'm curious, why they don't use dynamic resolution. There's not much going on main gameplay angles, I don't think there's anything Xbox One couldn't handle with the standard gameplay views, all players have much simpler geometry, no massive crowds compared to closeups and field level camera angles, for example. 1080p could help a lot during main gameplay.
Thanks for that link. It looks like they're using clustered shading in combination with standard forward+, which is pretty cool. The main benefit that will bring is that you don't have to buffer every single light by the looks of things, but if you have a lot of lights in your current view, there would be a significant CPU overhead as it would process all these, so it may not be appropriate in certain parts of GZ but is fantastic for a racing game where you zoom past the lights and the only ones that would stay still would be headlights.
Avalanche Studios are actually using that clustered shading/lighting solution on top of deferred renderer (http://www.humus.name/Articles/PracticalClusteredShading.pdf) as they don't have a lot of lights to deal with, so assuming that's what they'll be doing with JC3, it will be fascinating to see the results on XB1.
I'm playing the Xbox One version of PES 2015 from about 2 weeks, i used to play FIFA from 2008 till 2 weeks ago, but than i tried the new PES and i saw it was way and way better than FIFA 15, that's the real soccer, gameplay is awesome not even comparable with that garbage EA made...But unfortunately i'm noticed the 720p resolution on One, and it was a bit annoying, but after a while i got used to it and i like better even the graphics and animation of this game than FIFA 15. However komani must stop this and start pushing Xbox One hardware too, instead of duing all tha job on PS4 and just a simple port on Xbone, is not possible that Xbox One can't handle that graphics at 1080p and 60fps, while it can in similar games such as FIFA 15 or the other sports games around, it was a bit understandable in MG Ground Zeroes due the dimension of that game, but even there the gap between 720p vs 1080p seemed too much, 900p and 1080p would be more realistic if they worked as they're supposed to do on Xbox One, unfortunately this seems to me a problem of a pretty traditional japanese company which doesn't like at all foreign console, especially now that that foreign console is not even the market leader console anymore.
ProfessorMoran
Member
If anything there should always be a gap when there's a big difference in GPU.
Nestunt
Member
Do you want those stutters to end without disconnecting the console?
Reduce your number of friends to around 30
You can even have the auto log on to PES servers
Bearing in mind we are talking here about a small sample size for a statistically relevant analysis. I can say that this solved my problem and I tried everything before.
When I bought PES I had around 80 friends. Stuttering every game. I tried the MTU solution. Still stutter in every game (no reduction). I tried turning off the PES servers. Still stuttering in every game. I tried switching off the auto log in to PES servers and playing with those servers off. Still the same. Only when I disconnected the ethernet cable they completely disappeared. Then I tried all these solutions with 50 friends. Still the same
This morning I reduced to 30 friends. With everything online. No stutter. I did 4 games.
This is some weird shit. But it works and it is something that I think was already mentioned here.
BTW. EU PSN
Reduce your number of friends to around 30
You can even have the auto log on to PES servers
Bearing in mind we are talking here about a small sample size for a statistically relevant analysis. I can say that this solved my problem and I tried everything before.
When I bought PES I had around 80 friends. Stuttering every game. I tried the MTU solution. Still stutter in every game (no reduction). I tried turning off the PES servers. Still stuttering in every game. I tried switching off the auto log in to PES servers and playing with those servers off. Still the same. Only when I disconnected the ethernet cable they completely disappeared. Then I tried all these solutions with 50 friends. Still the same
This morning I reduced to 30 friends. With everything online. No stutter. I did 4 games.
This is some weird shit. But it works and it is something that I think was already mentioned here.
BTW. EU PSN
Is this serious?
The Forward + render is a mixture of both and could be called Deferred lighting really to cull areas of the scene not affected by lights, it runs a pre-pass for this.
The Clustered process here grids the entire scene and reduces the pre pass for lights to sections that are or not affected by lights.
Many devs will try many separate render methods over the next few years, as above 1 size never fits all.
Let's hope this is true for the devs of the Fox engine, too. It is obvious that other devs already adjusted their engines to a certain degree.
Casual racism and a complete disregard for the technical discussion. Wonderful shitposting. Welcome to ignore.
thelastword
Banned
This faceoff looks like it was done, but they would not publish it till enough persons asked. Perhaps we would never see it if nobody did.
In any case, df really chose to highlight the framerate during replays, well, it being 40fps for a bit on the Ps4. They mention there's a bottleneck due to it, but won't say what that bottleneck is. I wonder why they're reluctant.
They mentioned that the PS4 has better grass and texture filtering, but speak about better filtering on pitch side insignia on the xbone (could it be better filtering due to the 720p blurriness?). Apart from the on pitch stuff though, it doesn't look like you properly see the ads littered across the stadium just beyond the boundary. You could see it crisp on the Ps4 but it's it's extremely blurry on the xbone.
In any case, df really chose to highlight the framerate during replays, well, it being 40fps for a bit on the Ps4. They mention there's a bottleneck due to it, but won't say what that bottleneck is. I wonder why they're reluctant.
They mentioned that the PS4 has better grass and texture filtering, but speak about better filtering on pitch side insignia on the xbone (could it be better filtering due to the 720p blurriness?). Apart from the on pitch stuff though, it doesn't look like you properly see the ads littered across the stadium just beyond the boundary. You could see it crisp on the Ps4 but it's it's extremely blurry on the xbone.
Are you serious, never knew this, the last fifa I meddled with was 2011, so only the default camera is 60fps in fifa 2015?Azdoune said:
R3TRODYCE
Member
That looks bad in every way.Haven't read the face-off yet but what the..
Edit: Silly me, I think it's rain on the 'lens'
Kar
Member
That last sentence..
It's a shame the XBO turned out so poor, the PS4 version is the obvious way to go here. This series has never been an engineering showpiece, so I wasn't really expecting to be blown away. Still it'll be interesting to see how they improve the engine for this game in the future.
Also would love for one face off thread without the console warrior bullshit from people with clear agendas.
Also would love for one face off thread without the console warrior bullshit from people with clear agendas.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
DF Face-off threads by their very nature encourage this, unfortunately.
this is their brand new engine, so there wont be a new one.. they might be optimizing it more for XB1, but really if they want "parity" they have to make PS4 version worse I guess, since hardware is not at parity.
Plus here 60 fps locked was priority, so 900p with some dips would not have worked.
Dont't think so. Level of detail is basically the same. What changed is the implementation of better AA and shadow resolution.
The X360 was the market leader in what reality?
Especially when future 3rd party games are going to be running off of more powerful gaming engines as well as with also using deferred rendering. Xbox One won't be able to keep up with that.
In the future, we'll probably be seeing PS4 multiplat games in 900p & more Xbox One multiplat games in Native 720p or in Sub-HD.
Jessie.Bristol
Member
Doesn't Metro 2033 and Last Light use a Deferred Rendering Engine? 4A Games managed to get that up 912p.