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[Bryant]

I cannot say this is surprising to me. I am a huge Devil May Cry fan, and would have bought DMC5 in a heartbeat. Something about this new Dante just irked me the wrong way, it just didn't feel like the game series I loved. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if this game scored a 99% in the reviews and was considered one of the best games of all time, I would not have bought it because the characters and fiction I was invested in was thrown out the window. Yea, it was a goofy game and there are times when it was facepalm inducing, but I still loved it. This change in fiction just struck a really bad cord with me, I have to imagine there are scores of other fans who are in the same boat as me.

 

[MYE]

This argument will surely reach high levels with the introduction of Metacritic.

The shit-flinging hatefest of childish proportions that has been hanging around this title, even before it released, has made a pretty good job of keeping arguments in the lower end of things.

Because clearly his uninformed opinion regarding the previous series is worth more than your experienced opinions.

And we are off!!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Because you rate the game not only on it's own merits, but also on how much of a DMC it is. Fans have emotional investment in series they like, which makes it harder for them to be objective.

I am not new to video game criticism, for the record.

But I want you to clarify this position a little. You're saying that any time someone has any experience with a series before playing a new title, their opinion on it is inherently lesser than someone who had no experience or attachment prior to booting the newest game in the series.

Why do I get the feeling you would not be singing this tune if I happened to really love the game?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The shit-flinging hatefest of childish proportions that has been hanging around this title before it released has made a pretty good job of keeping things in the lower end of things.

Excuses make poor defenses.

 

[88random]

When it was first announced, I didn't like the new direction. Later, when new trailers and gameplay videos came out, I changed my mind to positive-neutral. I really wanted to like this game, and I somewhat do, but, as a DMC fan, I'm disappointed.
DmC is a good action game. It has it's problems like color coded enemies and a story (whic is subjective), but overall it has a good fighting system and it is an enjoyable experience.
But, DmC is not a good Devil May Cry game. Both 3 and 4 had better fighting systems and old Dante is just more awesome. I also liked the story more.

I'm almost 100% sure that DMC 5 would have sold better. I hope we will see it one day.

 

[Shinjica]

Many people in this thread say that this is the only Devil May Cry can get into it. Can, this people, explain why? I'm curious why DmC yes and DMC not.

 

[squall23]

Because you rate the game not only on it's own merits, but also on how much of a DMC it is. Fans have emotional investment in series they like, which makes it harder for them to be objective.

That doesn't make any sense. If a series sets a certain standard of excellence in one game, I expect the next game of that series to be of the same or higher standard. In fact, I'm more inclined to believe that the opinion of people that have played the previous games of a series to be more valid (not necessarily better or worse) than people who who haven't played the previous games or refuse to use those games as standards.

 

[demidar]

Because you rate the game not only on it's own merits, but also on how much of a DMC it is. Fans have emotional investment in series they like, which makes it harder for them to be objective.

The intention is for DmC to replace DMC, therefore they will be compared. If DmC is not as good (or in the ballpark) as DMC it will be reamed by old fans as it's not worthy enough to replace old DMC. If it was as good enough OR different enough old fans could get on board, as was the case of ResiEvil 4.

And we are off!!

This thread was getting a little dull anyway.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I always loved the argument and pitching of "Its a DMC game for people that didnt really like DMC". So why is it a DMC game and not something new? Oh because Ninja Theory have failed to make a new IP worth any salt. Lots of reviews of course came from people that havent played much else in the genre much less DMC1 and DMC3SE, both recently made available in HD (long piercing stare at Giant Bomb clowns).

I'd rather they'd been given Strider or a franchise that is actually dead rather than one that still had a fanbase looking forward to a continuation. MVC3 was still keeping (the usual) Dante and co in peoples minds, its not like the brand was in danger of being forgotten COUGHCOUGHMEGAMANCOUGH.

 

[Wiktor]

I

But I want you to clarify this position a little. You're saying that any time someone has any experience with a series before playing a new title, their opinion on it is inherently lesser than someone who had no experience or attachment prior to booting the newest game in the series.

No, I think when somebody is a fan of series, his opinion about objective value of the game tend to be worth a lot less than journalists in cases when a game makes a radical departure from previous entries. Fans love their IPs for a reason, they rarely react positively towards big changes.

Most fans thought Oblivion, Fallout 3, Rainbow Six Vegas, any Ghost Recon besides the first one, Thief 3 were bad games too, while in reality they were just bad follow-ups to older classics.

 

[Glass Rebel]

MYE has finally gone off the deep end. That other thread must have left scars deeper than the ending dialogue.

 

[jimi_dini]

I hope all the people laughing a DmC sales, realise that you wont magically get the original Dante back. You wont get anything at all. Capcom will scrap the franchise.

A clean death may be better than having a mutated, smelly corpse running around for years.
See: Silent Hill series

 

[ShockingAlberto]

No, I think when somebody is a fan of series, his opinion of objective value of the game tend to be worth a lot less than journalists in cases when a game makes a radical departure from previous entries. Fans love their IPs for a reason, they rarely react positively towards big changes.

Most fans thought Oblivion, Fallout 3, Rainbow Six Vegas, any Ghost Recon besides the first one, Thief 3 were bad games too, while in reality they were just bad follow-ups to older classics.

I loved Resident Evil, then loved RE4 more. I loved Fallout 1 and 2, then loved Fallout 3 more. I loved Persona 1 and 2, then loved 3 and 4 more.

But with DmC, my opinion is void, because clearly it's great and I'm wrong because I played previous games in the series and liked those.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Because you rate the game not only on it's own merits, but also on how much of a DMC it is. Fans have emotional investment in series they like, which makes it harder for them to be objective.

If you have no basis for your criticism (played other games in the genre, preferably extensively if you want a good understanding of mechanics) for a game in a well established genre, your opinion is worthless to me. Game journo scores for fighting games and action games like this are worthless.

 

[Wiktor]

I always loved the argument and pitching of "Its a DMC game for people that didnt really like DMC". So why is it a DMC game and not something new? .

Because DMC is recognizable IP. It's lazy, but that's just what happens. Publishers have been using IPs like that for a long time. The recent reactions have been much stronger because it has finally started happen to console IPs, while previously it was mostly PC IPs that were lazily used by publishers, often to make new console-centric games.

 

[Wiktor]

I loved Resident Evil, then loved RE4 more. I loved Fallout 1 and 2, then loved Fallout 3 more. I loved Persona 1 and 2, then loved 3 and 4 more.

But with DmC, my opinion is void, because clearly it's great and I'm wrong because I played previous games in the series and liked those.

If you think that DmC is a bad game, then yeah..to me your opinion is void.

 

[Wiktor]

Game journo scores for fighting games and games like this are worthless.

This logic could be applied to most of the genres though, aside from FPSes and maybe sport games.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Because DMC is recognizable IP. It's lazy, but that's just what happens. Publishers have been using IPs like that for a long time. The recent reactions have been much stronger because it has finally started happen to console IPs, while previously it was mostly PC IPs that were lazily used by publishers, often to make new console-centric games.

Well no, its happened this time because DMC wasn't a corpse that needed reanimating, it was still a live and breathing specimen thats had its guts ripped out, memory wiped, and extra things tacked on. Bringing back old dead IP's like Bionic Commando however with different studios with different ideas? Great. Made for some fun games.

This is also the reason why Tomb Raider is getting a kicking.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

If you think that DmC is a bad game, then yeah..to me your opinion is void.

Well now we're getting to the heart of the matter. Note that I never actually said it was a bad game (at least not in this conversation we are having now), but I do think it is rather flawed and overall did not care for it.

It has nothing to do with longterm fans or who played this before they played another thing. Disagreement about game quality is the beginning and end of this "Some opinions don't count" bullshit.

 

[demidar]

If you think that DmC is a bad game, then yeah..to me your opinion is void.

DmC is a good game, maybe even great, but compared to classic DMC it is bad. That's what happens when you saddle a game with an established IP, you invite comparisons.

DmC would've done much, much better if it were a new IP. You can blame Capcpom for that.

 

[MYE]

Excuses make poor defenses.

Excuses? lol
I'm not making excuses. This is a case where "professional" scores are a better indication of the quality of the final product than what the loud and angry mob of some DMC fans want to make us believe.
3.9 user scores, and seething hate of this fashion should be used against broken games and war criminals.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Excuses? lol
I'm not making excuses. This is a case where "professional" scores are a better indication of the quality of the final product than what the loud and angry mob of some DMC fans want to make us believe.
3.9 user scores, and seething hate of this fashion should be used against broken games and war criminals.

I'd rate DmC 61/100, making the user score slightly more useful.

I love how opinions work.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

This logic could be applied to most of the genres though, aside from FPSes and maybe sport games.

Yeah, we need better game reviewers. I have to rely on forum talk from people whose opinion I actually respect to really gauge reaction to a game nowadays.

 

[Wiktor]

Well now we're getting to the heart of the matter. Note that I never actually said it was a bad game (at least not in this conversation we are having now), but I do think it is rather flawed and overall did not care for it.

It has nothing to do with longterm fans or who played this before they played another thing. Disagreement about game quality is the beginning and end of this "Some opinions don't count" bullshit.

The threads were merged, so this is this conversation

I can understand where you're coming from though. I had the same reaction you have (only much much worse) to Fallout 3 as Fallout 1/2 fan, but ultimatelly I just learned to separate game from it's predecessors. It's just less painful this way

 

[demidar]

Excuses? lol
I'm not making excuses. This is a case where "professional" scores are a better indication of the quality of the final product than what the loud and angry mob of some DMC fans want to make us believe.
3.9 user scores, and seething hate of this fashion should be used against broken games and war criminals.

Reviewers don't have the time to dedicate to digging into a game's depth, they have commitments to review other games.

 

[Wiktor]

Yeah, we need better game reviewers

Nah. I think it's good this way. Mainstream reviews are supposed to reflect mainstream audience. Fans know well enough where to look (forums, specialised fansites etc) for opinions more suited to their taste.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The threads were merged, so this is this conversation

I can understand where you're coming from though. I had the same reaction you have (only much much worse) to Fallout 3 as Fallout 1/2 fan, but ultimatelly I just learned to separate game from it's predecessors. It's just less painful this way

So you have never (since your Fallout epiphany) said that you dislike a game because you don't think it does things as well as a previous game in the series?

 

[MYE]

I'd rate DmC 61/100, making the user score slightly more useful.

I love how opinions work.

I would have no problem in believing that a 61/100 is a completely honest DmC user review score.

Reviewers don't have the time to dedicate to digging into a game's depth, they have commitments to review other games.

Kind of pointless to argue this when many who give this game the lowest possible scores and have the worst opinions on it, admit that they didnt play it and have no intentions of doing it.

 

[Dai Kaiju]

I'm so confused. When did 1 million stop being a big number? Or is it just small for an established franchise?

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Nah. I think it's good this way. Mainstream reviews are supposed to reflect mainstream audience. Fans know well enough where to look (forums, specialised fansites etc) for opinions more suited to their taste.

Game reviewers do a disservice to "mainstream" by acting like every game is their first game they have ever played, squashing review scores into 7-10, and in general being poor reviewers of well established genres.

 

[demidar]

Nah. I think it's good this way. Mainstream reviews are supposed to reflect mainstream audience. Fans know well enough where to look (forums, specialised fansites etc) for opinions more suited to their taste.

Apparently not because the mainstream that bought this are outnumbered by fans of the classic series.

 

[Wiktor]

So you have never (since your Fallout epiphany) said that you dislike a game because you don't think it does things as well as a previous game in the series?

Not precisely. I never considered a game bad solely because it doesn't do some things as well as previous entries. Especially when it still does those things good, just not as good as it did before

 

[Glass Rebel]

I would have no problem in believing that a 61/100 is a completely honest DmC user review score.

And I have a problem understanding why you keep bringing up metacritic and userscores in a discussion about quality when it's such a subjective topic. People in these threads and most importantly in the OT have been very clear about the things they like and those that they don't like in DmC. Quoting Metacritic user reviews is just detrimental to any discussion.

Spoiler

I wouldn't rate it 61/100 anyway, I don't believe in scores

I'm so confused. When did 1 million stop being a big number? Or is it just small for an established franchise?

It stopped being a good number when it was only shipped rather than sold and a 1.7m drop from the predecessor.

 

[Wiktor]

Game reviewers do a disservice to "mainstream" by acting like every game is their first game they have ever played, squashing review scores into 7-10, and in general being poor reviewers of well established genres.

Personally consider review that mostly compares a game to it's predecessors to be a very bad review, at least if it's posted on general website instead of specialized forum/fansite.

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Personally consider review that mostly compares a game to it's predecessors to be a very bad review, at least if it's posted on general website instead of specialized forum/fansite.

It shouldn't just be compared to predecessors, it should be compared to the highs of the genre as well. Does the entire history of video games disappear every time you play a game? Reviewers are supposed to be more critical than their reading audience, not the other way around.

 

[Pureauthor]

It stopped being a good number when it was only shipped rather than sold and a 1.7m drop from the predecessor.

Also when the concept of restrained budgets went out the window this generation.

 

[Wiktor]

It shouldn't just be compared to predecessors, it should be compared to the highs of the genre as well. Does the entire history of video games disappear every time you play a game? Reviewers are supposed to be more critical than their reading audience, not the other way around.

This doesn't mean you can trash a game solely because it fails to achieve the heighs of it's genre. There's huge gap between that height and gutter trash.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Where do we get this idea that reviewers never compare games?

Are there many Persona 4/Golden reviews out there that don't talk about how terrible other JRPGs are? Are there a lot of Binary Domain reviews that don't complain about the shooting being better in Gears?

But if you compare DmC to Bayonetta or even DMC4, you're doing your audience a disservice.

 

[SOME-MIST]

huge fan of dmc 1, 3, 4, but I didn't buy DmC because both heavenly sword and enslaved were one-and-dones for me (I felt both were a waste of money).

my favorite part of the franchise was the combat complexity (I love dat jump cancelling), and I was turned off by everything I heard. I was really hoping for a Nero follow up and more original dante quick weapon + style switching.

regardless... sucks that it didn't work out for capcom like they had originally planned.. tho 1 million isn't that bad.

 

[MYE]

And I have a problem understanding why you keep bringing up metacritic and userscores in a discussion about quality when it's such a subjective topic. People in these threads and most importantly in the OT have been very clear about the things they like and those that they don't like in DmC. Quoting Metacritic user reviews is just detrimental to any discussion.

Spoiler

I wouldn't rate it 61/100 anyway, I don't believe in scores

I'm not sure but I think I only brought it up today.
And for better or for worse, its the closest thing to a more objective consensus we have. And seeing as I was replying to someone who said "Except its not a good game.", in response to someone who considered that it was, it seemed appropriate to bring up the general opinion that is less heavily poluted by poorly hidden agendas. The "professional" one.

 

[Draft]

That's weird. Ripping out the guts of what made DMC good and handing development over to a shitty b-tier dev that's never produced anything better than "OK" didn't work? Well, who can predict what will happen in this crazy industry, amirite?

 

[Endo Punk]

DmC is really an odd game, it's one caught between a rock and a hard place and can appeal to neither hardcore nor casual gamers. Now I understand it has its fans but it's another niche audience and you now the deal with a niche audience is that when they love something they love it so much to the point they feel ownership and defend it even if it makes them out to be just as blind as the haters.

Well at least now DmC fans know how it felt to be a DMC fan and have a franchise lore and gameplay you cherish tossed aside, from one niche gamer to another, I know dat feel.

Now the problem is the franchise is even more diluted and it will be hell for the next DMC to appeal to every type of person who enjoys a DMC. After-all the franchise means different things to different people, I still long for the day it goes back to the gothic horror design of the original.

Next gen is going to be interesting what direction Capcom takes DMC and RE. I think both will get another reboot personally.

 

[demidar]

DmC is really an odd game, it's one caught between a rock and a hard place and can appeal to neither hardcore nor casual gamers. Now I understand it has its fans but it's another niche audience and you now the deal with a niche audience is that when they love something they love it so much to the point they feel ownership and defend it even if it makes them out to be just as blind as the haters.

Well at least now DmC fans know how it felt to be a DMC fan and have a franchise lore and gameplay you cherish tossed aside, from one niche gamer to another, I know dat feel.

Now the problem is the franchise is even more diluted and it will be hell for the next DMC to appeal to every type of person who enjoys a DMC. After-all the franchise means different things to different people, I still long for the day it goes back to the gothic horror design of the original.

Next gen it's really going to be interesting what direction Capcom takes DMC and RE. I think both will get another reboot personally.

You build up an established fanbase through four games, then you toss it away while it's still breathing to chase an unproven fanbase.

CAPCPOM

It was a no-win situation from day one, Capcom was too stupid to see that.

 

[angelfly]

I'm not at all surprised by this. They shat on fans of the series to try and cater to a new base and now it seems to not have paid off. I loved 1 and 3 and even though I didn't think 4 was up to snuff, I think it's better than the new one. I hope Capcom treats this as a one-off and goes back to the traditional DMC gameplay.

 

[ZeroAlpha]

Love the old DMC games, in fact playing through them again thanks to my HD collection.

I have not yet played DmC and probably wont until its around 15 bucks or so... but not because its a bad game i can say objectively its probably not a bad game at all and hell might even deserve the reviews its got.

But i can say its not what i'm looking for in a DMC game and aesthetically its not really what i want from DMC either. That and the combat system seems like a downgrade from what I've watched and opinions of other fans who know much better than me. Also i really wanted to see the continuation of this story but fuck me right?

Had this not been a labeled as a DMC i would have bought it day 1 as i like supporting new IP's and i like this type of game, hell I bought both Heavily Sword and Enslaved at launch price and both let me down despite being quite pretty games and industry 'buzz' about them.

 

[ElyrionX]

Worked for Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, Oblivion, Fallout 3 and many others

None of those are games residing in a genre that only Japanese devs have proven to be good at.

Now, imagine if they had handed all of those franchises to a Japanese studio. That's what they did to DMC.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I will say the PR leadup to this game was a disaster and not only because they failed to sell the game at the end of it.

They spent so long explaining why Devil May Cry needed to be fixed (and then not actually fixing the things they outlined) that they have no home to return to. Rather than just saying "We're trying this out, we are confident in it," they went on these insane "MAN THE DMC YOU PLAYED BEFORE WAS GARBAGE THIS ONE RULES" campaign. People forget, but when this game was revealed, it was not an alternative take on the series, it was a total prequel.

I imagine some things were eventually changed (can't imagine how a prequel works when Mundus beat Sparda and Eva was an angel), but a lot of the final game seems to fit in with the idea that this was supposed to be a prequel to DMC3.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Many people in this thread say that this is the only Devil May Cry can get into it. Can, this people, explain why? I'm curious why DmC yes and DMC not.

Their love of poorly written stories and pretty backgrounds.

 

[Endo Punk]

DMC4 was such a disappointment to me but not because of its story. I found the cutscenes interesting enough visually and just how fun they were but I didn't like how Gloria was handled(And Lady for that matter), backtracking without change in environment and the fact Nero was one new weapon away from being awesome. Of course the game redeemed itself with Dante gameplay as well as the magnificent Bosses which are the best in the franchise. After witnessing DmC I'd take another unfinished DMC like DMC4 anyday. DmC definitely does more wrong than it does right in comparison to DMC4.

 

[fastballspecial]

People are fucking dense. The game is awesome. Buy it. Play it. Enjoy it.