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Dota 2 Beta Thread 3: Gunnar Optiks Required [Faster Loading]
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The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its funny, the thing that bugged me the most about that list was that I felt Windrunner's Powershot deserved to be on there as well
Fragamemnon
Member
geez that lifestealer pickoff into a 5v4 team wipe was insane in the Na'Vi vs. AL match. No one in the west LANs like Na'Vi LANs.
Faulty equivalency. In LoL, pretty much every skill shot is spammable, not only in that they have low cooldowns, but also because they cost next to nothing and mana regen is high (many champs don't even use mana). Hell, with max CDR, you could spam Lux's ult. In DOTA2, mana constraints heavily restrict what you can do early game, and this is what he's complaining about.
Basically, he wants to spam skills at the other guy instead of auto attacking them.
Basically, he wants to spam skills at the other guy instead of auto attacking them.
perryfarrell
Member
Viewercounts atm:
Dota 2: 25K on Tobi, 1.5K on BTS, 17K in-game. Adds up to 43.5K.
SC2: 20K on stream a, 10K on stream B, 7K other languages. Adds to 37K.
Dota doing pretty well for itself!
Dota 2: 25K on Tobi, 1.5K on BTS, 17K in-game. Adds up to 43.5K.
SC2: 20K on stream a, 10K on stream B, 7K other languages. Adds to 37K.
Dota doing pretty well for itself!
tsunami643
Member
I've been playing for around a year and I still think the courier and the secret shop are by far the dumbest parts of Dota. To this day I am still surprised at the stuff you can make in the side shop and which secret shop items are also hiding in the side shop. It serves very little purpose other than to make things more complicated. I would be okay if you could buy everything but regen in the side shop and the courier existed solely for early level regen ferrying/bottle crowing, but other than that, I don't think I'll ever like that mechanic.
Na'Vi teamfight is so good.
Because Jakiro was pulling mid lane to neutrals, denying exp that Pudge needs.
+8k if you sum Russian and Spanish cast.
Because Jakiro was pulling mid lane to neutrals, denying exp that Pudge needs.
+8k if you sum Russian and Spanish cast.
iSurvivedTheOutage
Member
opa den-day!!!
Thanks guys. I wonder if we'll be seeing some map changes in a future patch between the rumoured Roshan pit move and with this midlane pull seeming to be really strong.
Congrats! Are the International couriers dropping in these tournaments?
Congrats! Are the International couriers dropping in these tournaments?
JakkuFurosu
Member
grats! i saw they added drops last patch is the furyblade special in any type of way or is it just tagged?
i hope not.
Dunno what's wrong with the courier.
Side shop is just there to provide better game flow and save the courier for important stuff.
Secret shop is a good concept because it ensures to a team can't just camp in base when all towers are down, because they can't build the most powerful items in base.
It's just tagged differently and has "Tournament" in it's name.
Rewards good map control with security and punishes bad with risk (either of the courier or yourself), that's the purpose it serves. It's not about adding needless complication.
Beaten!
Schweinehund
Member
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=97271157&searchtext=
Taking a gander at the workshop, some items like this never see the light of day. I like the idea of different animals for sylla's summons but would people accept it/would it cause problems in recognizing the hero?
Taking a gander at the workshop, some items like this never see the light of day. I like the idea of different animals for sylla's summons but would people accept it/would it cause problems in recognizing the hero?
I was really excited (well, mildly excited) when Cyborgmatt datamined a new Warlock summon but that never saw the light of day. Granted, I probably wouldn't buy it anyway.
This stream is ridiculous. Does 2GD cast? I don't think I've seen him outside of this and The International 2.
lazorexplosion
Member
"spam" is a loaded way of putting it. I enjoy using skills more frequently, because skill sets are the most distinctive part of a hero's kit.
Spirit of Jazz
Banned
Because I have no friends?
I've had enough of all pick now at lest, I was playing it to learn new characters but after 3 matches with lane partners who auto-attacked despite me asking them not to whilst my other lanes were losing horribly I'm sticking to captain's mode on US east at least.Shame LoL loves to reuse these skillsets.
seems like it what the fuck is this hahaha
dave is ok
aztek is ok
LoL is weird because they use the same button configuration for each hero too, for example - gap closing/escape abilities are always on E
On one hand I appreciate it because it makes it easier to remember when using a champ you never played before, but on the other hand it makes many champs feel same-y
Dreams-Visions
Member
Simply a good use of superior tactics.
1.) Your friend (or his mates) didn't buy wards to get vision on the darkened paths of the map near that tower AND he didn't realize the tactics Bane and Mirana wanted to use on him. Namely, using the sleep to set up a looong range, guaranteed-to-hit arrow.
2.) The way the arrow works is that the longer away Mirana is, the longer the stun duration. Using that principle, she and Bane clearly had a plan that if your friend got out of position and Bane could get off a sleep that Mirana could easily arrow target from a good distance, he was going to go for it and he was going to be stunned for a long time.
3.) The way towers work in Dota is that if there are creeps around drawing tower fire, the tower won't attack you. So there is a brief window of time where if your creeps are at the tower, you can dive past the tower without worrying about getting hit. They knew this and took advantage of that.
This wasn't a cheesy tactic; it was superior strategy. They went into their lane with a plan and they worked their plan. Such is one of the dozens of laning strategies that synergize well with certain heroes. Double-stun combos, slow + dot combos and many other combos are all very popular and very effective. Most particularly against noobs who haven't achieved the level of understanding that comes with understanding what your opponents want to do to kill you (so you can avoid those positioning mistakes).
Without that level of understanding, your friend was destined to be caught like that and/or lose that lane.
Last point: Always have a ward up if you're 2v1 or 3v1 in a lane and trying to tower hug for cs and xp. You can't afford to NOT know when the enemy is trying to set something up on you or when a gank is coming from another lane.
So yea, it's about learning how all of these pieces fit together on a team, how to stop the enemy team from doing what they want to do and how to impose your will on them. Expect that all to take a very, very long time to learn.
undu
Member
What do you think about this one? There may be a balance between recognizability and uniqueness.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Puppey going mid with Axe vs TA.
watch and see. he got crushed as TA with that matchup on stream a few days ago. no surprise he wants to try it for himself.
edit: nope they put him in the jungle. but he's going to put some work in on that TA refraction.
watch and see. he got crushed as TA with that matchup on stream a few days ago. no surprise he wants to try it for himself.
edit: nope they put him in the jungle. but he's going to put some work in on that TA refraction.
Dinosaur Tamer
Member
Well, I would argue that varying mana costs and cooldowns are part of what makes skill sets unique. If every Dota hero was able to spam skills like in LoL, a whole lot of distinctiveness would be lost right away.
In fact, some of your comments sound like you would prefer a roster where nearly every hero has a spammable skillshot in his arsenal. That does not strike me as diversified at all.
lazorexplosion
Member
Yeah I realize that's how the mechanics of dota 2 are, it's a punishing game and i knew that going into it. It's more the flip side of that, that mana costs need to be very high because the abilities are so high impact which leaves you using your abilities less often than in league where you're going to be harassing with them frequently. I just find it more fun to be consistently out dodging skill shots and looking to harass while last hitting because abilities can be used more frequently. I'd happily dial back the punishing-ness of the average ability in favor of using them more often, but the reduction in punishing impact is not the primary thing I want.
The mix of last hitting, harassing, controlling the creep equilibrium and looking for set ups is infinitely more engaging than dodging a spell at x second intervals, and it's gets even more intricate the better you are.
Not to mention the how different lane setups interact against each other.
lazorexplosion
Member
I'd say league has easily as much diversity in spammability as Dota 2, it's just the average is spammability is higher. Actually I'd say the diversity is higher if anything; the range goes from like a 50 mana 1s cooldown extremely spammable spell to like a 150 mana 12s cooldown spell (not including ults). The distinctiveness of those examples (Karthus and Anivia) is just huge.
lazorexplosion
Member
"dodging a spell at x second intervals"? That's not how it works at all. Have you played lol?
Yeah laning in Dota isn't boring at all. You have to constantly check map for missing heroes, deny, lasthit, stack creeps, pull creeps, and because a single stun can fuck you up if comboed right, you are always on your toes. TP scrolls make it that a 2v2 lane quickly turns into a 3v2 and you need to react very fast.
Saying that laning in dota is boring because you can't use your skills often is not true imo.
Saying that laning in dota is boring because you can't use your skills often is not true imo.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
? Dota 2 hits that range and enlarges it, you've got stuff like Drow's arrows at 12 mana and 0s cooldown (or Huskar, or Viper, or Clinkz), you've got midrange stuff like Ogre Magi's 75-105 mana Fireblast on a 12s cooldown, or Lion's earth spike, or etc etc, and you've got stuff like Magnus' skewer on a 30s cooldown, or Juggernaut's Blade Fury, or Undying's Tomb on a 45s, or any other number of abilities. What heroes have you been playing?
Unless you're just talking about skill-shot stuff, which is just straight up a design difference between Dota and LoL
Not to forget batriders low CD spells, slark where every skill is sub 30sec cooldown, bristleback spamming stuff constantly, Zeus, Windrunner, Jakiro
There are a lot of heroes in dota that also spam their spells, and can do so early in the game.
Yeah, the skill difference between these two teams is really evident. Granted, 3Dmax is putting on a good fight. At this point it just feels like they really need Na'Vi to make a huge mistake. And it's Na'Vi so that's not likely to happen.
A number of people here have played LoL before moving over to Dota 2. My friends and I played LoL for almost a year before getting in to Dota. We can empathize with how... overwhelming Dota can be when you first start.
I think the biggest thing to say is that the games are very different. League revolves around ease of playability and little investment to do well. Last hitting is a cinch in League. You need heroes to basically be able to constantly spam their abilities because the laning phase is very static. Supports have nothing to do (without any denying mechanic or stacking and pulling plus ganking being really weak during laning and hinging solely around the jungler) the meta is very... stable and you can basically go into any game having a good idea of how it's going to play out.
So when you step into Dota and it's vast combination of heroes, synergies and metas it can be very daunting. My friends really didn't like Dota when they first tried it either but after re-learning how to play the game they haven't touched League at all.
It's ok, I was just exagerrating slightly, not that it actually matters as LoL is about as interesting as my simplification.
Yep, even when Na'Vi's play is this bad the skill difference is just too large...
edit: ...
OPA LOST anyway.
lazorexplosion
Member
Drow arrows are an auto attack buff, we aren't counting those (I didn't count ashe arrows either). As far as I've seen we're talking 12-45s. Is that a bigger range than 1-15s? I'd argue that 1-15s is proportionately more diverse, as is the mana costs. It certainly seems to me like there isn't any Dota 2 caster that plays like Karthas or Cassiopia.
Pureauthor
Member
In the context we're talking about we're using Hero UAM/Orbs as individual casts because you can do that instead of setting it to autoattack, which most will do in the laning phase. In which case the shortest cooldown is 0 secs. But even if we stick strictly to active-only cast abilities, Zeus has Arc Lightning on a 1.75 second cooldown.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Those two characters look like they have low-cooldown AoE abilities, which is cool, but why is that significantly different from a low-cooldown attack modifier? I mean, it sounds like you're specifically getting hung up on the lack of spammable AoE damage? (weather it be cone or radius)
Dota does have a couple of those though. Zeus has his Arc Lightning, Storm Spirit has Static Remnant...Luna's Lucent beam is on 6s
Soul Assumption is 4 seconds.
Shadow Poison is 3.
Sticky Napalm is 3.
Not as impressive as Zeus' but there are a few skills on very low cds.
Zeus' Arch Lightning has 1.75 seconds of Cooldown from level 1.
Lots of skills have 8 seconds of cooldown or around there, right from level 1.
Schweinehund
Member
What do you think about this one? There may be a balance between recognizability and uniqueness.
That's pretty awesome. If he could get the ult to have a black/white scheme as well it would be perfect.
edit: The closest thing to an LoL hero would be
http://www.playdota.com/heroes/skywrath-mage
Scales off intellect and has short cd on skills.
Although you can spam spells in lol, its not usually feasible in early game (on most casters atleast, there are several heros like vlad, kat, ezreal that pretty much spam their abilities).
If there is two things I can say about the laning phase in lol:
1. Support is the most boring job ever in the game. You can't deny so you usually sit there trying to harass or babysit your carry. There's no pulling or anything and since there's no denying, the lane is barely ever pushed.
2. First bloods/early ganking is much tougher. Turrets do an insane amount of damage and discourage aggressive play. In addition gank entry points are easily warded, and wards are cheap/plentiful. There are also no runes to assist in ganking. There are buffs you can get from killing neutral mobs but they nerfed the hell out of them a while back.
Slarks Pounce and Dark Pact have 8 and 6 second cooldowns, Slardar 8 second on his stun, Chaos Knight 10 and 6 seconds on his abilities, Tides Smash 4secs, Dazzle 7 and 6 seconds on Poison and Shadow Wave, Storm Spirit 3,5 on his Remnant and no CD on his ult, Pugna 5 and 7 second on Blast and Decrepify, NO CD on his Ult once he has Aghs... And I am not even done...
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
If we go up to 8s then we get Shadow Shaman's Ether Shock, one of the most consistently useful nukes in the game
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