Grand Theft Scratchy
Banned
Assuming the full release of Dreams will come later this year, is it possible Sony will port it to the PS5 as well (launch title)?
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Dreams Is The Most Important New Game In A Decade
- Thread starter GribbleGrunger
- Start date
Geki-D
Banned
MM said in an interview that if there was a PS5 (this was before the reveal), they would aim to port it.
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GribbleGrunger
Dreams in Digital
MM said in an interview that if there was a PS5 (this was before the reveal), they would aim to port it.
I made an OT by the way
somerset
Member
Pre-hype = trash. Sorry guys, PR marketing methods are well understood. Viral marketing gets the hard-of-thinking worked up for substandard product, because said product cannot sell on its own merits.
It gets worse with no-brain 'creation' tools. In reality they are 'tools' aimed at taking money from the wallets of the truly foolish.
Long, long, long ago a famous computer magazine (not a 'gaming' magazine) had a cover story declaring 'The Last One' was the last coding tool anyone would ever need. This 'program' would allow no-hopers to 'create' every other business program they would need.
Wanna create a game? *Learn to code*. Which also means learn basic maths and logic. Coding languages and environments are *free*. Engines are *free* to work with. Good enough sound, 2d and 3d art tools are *free*. Starter art asset resources are *free*.
What is *not* free and *never* free? Brain power. Thinking. Mental work. Making a game is both 'cheap' (tools and assets) and *very* expensive (time and thought).
Best way to start? Buy/build a PC. Consoles- *forget* about them.
Then install game coding environments with example games and full source code. Do *not* try to code from scratch. Edit a known working source project.
Most of you will be godawful at the beginning. Some of you won't have the brain for coding/design (which only means your brain is built for other things). But some of you will start to get better. You'll start to realsie things you never before understood- and that feeds back into the coding and design.
No-one learns anything useful from the noddy garbage on consoles or phones- even when they *pretend* to have 'coding' by dragging 'code blocks' or the like. Learning to 'code' from doing such is like learning to write novels by doing crossword puzzles. Dumbed down pseudo coding environments are anti-coding environments- they actually make you worse.
A true computer language, even the 'easy' ones, are challenging to master. But master them you must. The cost of entry is a quite basic/cheap PC (thanks AMD). Something with a Ryzen APU and 8 gigs of RAM will do brilliantly. As I said, *all* the software tools (the equivalent in the 1970s would have cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars with far less functionality- since the equivalent back then would have been highly proprietary libraries and tools) are free. And every second you spend coding/designing on this PC will be a second more experience getting you into a real tech career.
Play *games* on your console. *work* (design/code) on your PC. Your brain will thank you. Your future self will thank you.
It gets worse with no-brain 'creation' tools. In reality they are 'tools' aimed at taking money from the wallets of the truly foolish.
Long, long, long ago a famous computer magazine (not a 'gaming' magazine) had a cover story declaring 'The Last One' was the last coding tool anyone would ever need. This 'program' would allow no-hopers to 'create' every other business program they would need.
Wanna create a game? *Learn to code*. Which also means learn basic maths and logic. Coding languages and environments are *free*. Engines are *free* to work with. Good enough sound, 2d and 3d art tools are *free*. Starter art asset resources are *free*.
What is *not* free and *never* free? Brain power. Thinking. Mental work. Making a game is both 'cheap' (tools and assets) and *very* expensive (time and thought).
Best way to start? Buy/build a PC. Consoles- *forget* about them.
Then install game coding environments with example games and full source code. Do *not* try to code from scratch. Edit a known working source project.
Most of you will be godawful at the beginning. Some of you won't have the brain for coding/design (which only means your brain is built for other things). But some of you will start to get better. You'll start to realsie things you never before understood- and that feeds back into the coding and design.
No-one learns anything useful from the noddy garbage on consoles or phones- even when they *pretend* to have 'coding' by dragging 'code blocks' or the like. Learning to 'code' from doing such is like learning to write novels by doing crossword puzzles. Dumbed down pseudo coding environments are anti-coding environments- they actually make you worse.
A true computer language, even the 'easy' ones, are challenging to master. But master them you must. The cost of entry is a quite basic/cheap PC (thanks AMD). Something with a Ryzen APU and 8 gigs of RAM will do brilliantly. As I said, *all* the software tools (the equivalent in the 1970s would have cost you hundreds of thousands of dollars with far less functionality- since the equivalent back then would have been highly proprietary libraries and tools) are free. And every second you spend coding/designing on this PC will be a second more experience getting you into a real tech career.
Play *games* on your console. *work* (design/code) on your PC. Your brain will thank you. Your future self will thank you.
Someone is trying to do something like that already
The better discussion to be had is what part you consider that can't be recreated and finding ways around it.
Vawn
Banned
Gamernyc78
Banned
No one cares. Their gloating will be hollow. Lbp sold in the multi millions and Sony has Media Molecule as the type of devs to push innovation. This game will score high and be what Sony wants it to be and that is a different type of game that they can point to and say "we sell games, we have fps games, mp games and of course innovative games like Dreams". It looks great in their diverse portfolio. You really think Sony greenlit Tear away and now Dreams because they think it's going to sell a gazillion? You think they don't know based off tearaway?
Bottom line is when you point to those games like Sea of Thieves and Crackdown 3 they neither sold well or scored well that is sad. This game will score well, be innovative like most games under media molecule and sell decent so it'll be a win either way. Totally different scenario.
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FranXico
Member
The Blu-Rays got to you mate.
Shifty
Member
As best I can tell this is the same basic Dreams puppet locomotion we've seen elsewhere. It looks a bit like the physics-based movement from Gang Beasts and Human: Fall Flat- characters will drunkenly lean during turns, and their limbs interact with the environment based on a global physics simulation.
Compare that to Mario 64, where Mario's direction changes separately from his velocity and his animations are all unaffected by external objects unless it's something explicitly programmed like pushing a block or carrying a box. These are pretty fundamental aspects of how the two implementations work, so you'd either have to create a bunch of logic on top of Dreams' built-in system to suppress undesirable behaviour, or build your own movement and animation from the ground up.
As to whether the latter is feasible, I'm not familiar enough with Dreams to be certain. To give you an idea of the scope involved, SM64 uses the same kind of 'kinematic' movement that you see in most games that aren't goofy physics indies- tightly controlled motion tied to various animations that cause a character to behave in certain ways:
Collision Detection
At the core is a collision detection and response system- the logic to figure out whether two objects intersect, and how to move them out of that intersection in a controllable and believable way.
Dreams obviously has this, but it's not clear how closely-tied it is to the global physics sim, which is a hard-to-control factor that you don't want anything to do with when implementing kinematic movement as all velocities need to be directly controlled by the movement logic.
Character State Machine
On top of that, you have mario's 'state machine'- a programming pattern that defines a bunch of states (standing, walking, running, jumping, punching, butt slamming, damage knockback, etc, etc, etc), how mario behaves in each of those states (not being able to accelerate while punching, not being affected by gravity while climbing a pole, jumping higher on the second and third hops, launching forward during a long jump or dive, etc.) and which states transition to other states under certain conditions (stand > walk > run, punch 1 > punch 2 > kick, jump > butt bounce, and so forth.)
Based on the crazy stuff people did with LBP I think you could probably pull this off with Dreams' equivalent of scripting, but it's the kind of pattern that tends to be much more complex to implement without traditional programming constructs so would probably end up being A. the bulk of the work and B. a nightmare to iterate on and maintain.
Animation
On top of that, you have the animation system. In a traditional implementation like this, animations are tightly coupled with states- if mario is walking, play the walk animation, if he's punching, play the punch animation, etc.
This is probably the simplest part, since you just rig up a "play animation on loop" event to each state change.
Bringing it together
Once you have all that in place, it'd be a matter of tweaking each state's behaviour until it's faithful to the original. Mario does a lot of stuff, so this would probably take a while by virtue of needing to do it by eye.
----------------------------
So all in all, it can probably be done, but almost definitely not with the built-in systems. The logic behind professionally-developed games is complex stuff, which is why game creation kits like Dreams (or The Games Factory, or Multimedia Fusion) attempt to simplify it down into off-the-shelf paradigms that are easy to grasp, but limited as a result. Like I said- I'll be very impressed if someone puts in the crazy amount of work necessary to pull it off
Edit: Gribble's latest post in the OT is probably the most convincing example of a state-based character I've seen yet in Dreams, though it's a whole dimension (and tons of states) simpler than trying to accurately recreate a mario.
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Challenge accepted.As best I can tell this is the same basic Dreams puppet locomotion we've seen elsewhere. It looks a bit like the physics-based movement from Gang Beasts and Human: Fall Flat- characters will drunkenly lean during turns, and their limbs interact with the environment based on a global physics simulation.
Compare that to Mario 64, where Mario's direction changes separately from his velocity and his animations are all unaffected by external objects unless it's something explicitly programmed like pushing a block or carrying a box. These are pretty fundamental aspects of how the two implementations work, so you'd either have to create a bunch of logic on top of Dreams' built-in system to suppress undesirable behaviour, or build your own movement and animation from the ground up.
As to whether the latter is feasible, I'm not familiar enough with Dreams to be certain. To give you an idea of the scope involved, SM64 uses the same kind of 'kinematic' movement that you see in most games that aren't goofy physics indies- tightly controlled motion tied to various animations that cause a character to behave in certain ways:
Collision Detection
At the core is a collision detection and response system- the logic to figure out whether two objects intersect, and how to move them out of that intersection in a controllable and believable way.
Dreams obviously has this, but it's not clear how closely-tied it is to the global physics sim, which is a hard-to-control factor that you don't want anything to do with when implementing kinematic movement as all velocities need to be directly controlled by the movement logic.
Character State Machine
On top of that, you have mario's 'state machine'- a programming pattern that defines a bunch of states (standing, walking, running, jumping, punching, butt slamming, damage knockback, etc, etc, etc), how mario behaves in each of those states (not being able to accelerate while punching, not being affected by gravity while climbing a pole, jumping higher on the second and third hops, launching forward during a long jump or dive, etc.) and which states transition to other states under certain conditions (stand > walk > run, punch 1 > punch 2 > kick, jump > butt bounce, and so forth.)
Based on the crazy stuff people did with LBP I think you could probably pull this off with Dreams' equivalent of scripting, but it's the kind of pattern that tends to be much more complex to implement without traditional programming constructs so would probably end up being A. the bulk of the work and B. a nightmare to iterate on and maintain.
Animation
On top of that, you have the animation system. In a traditional implementation like this, animations are tightly coupled with states- if mario is walking, play the walk animation, if he's punching, play the punch animation, etc.
This is probably the simplest part, since you just rig up a "play animation on loop" event to each state change.
Bringing it together
Once you have all that in place, it'd be a matter of tweaking each state's behaviour until it's faithful to the original. Mario does a lot of stuff, so this would probably take a while by virtue of needing to do it by eye.
----------------------------
So all in all, it can probably be done, but almost definitely not with the built-in systems. The logic behind professionally-developed games is complex stuff, which is why game creation kits like Dreams (or The Games Factory, or Multimedia Fusion) attempt to simplify it down into off-the-shelf paradigms that are easy to grasp, but limited as a result. Like I said- I'll be very impressed if someone puts in the crazy amount of work necessary to pull it off
Edit: Gribble's latest post in the OT is probably the most convincing example of a state-based character I've seen yet in Dreams, though it's a whole dimension (and tons of states) simpler than trying to accurately recreate a mario.
The second and third hop jumps were also done by someone.
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