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DualShockers: PS5 Is Not Being Held Back, PS4 Is Too Successful to Ignore

Nikana

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It’s incredibly hypocritical to (rightly) lambast Microsoft for dictating that games have to play on old consoles, but then say it’s okay for Sony to do it.

Making games for old consoles holds back games. No matter who’s doing it. If you think it’s okay for one company, but not okay for the other, you’re demonstrating a clear bias, and need to have a word with yourself.
 

FranXico

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It’s very different. Sony have pretty much always dropped software support for the previous generation instantly, at most releasing 1 more game on the previous generation. They never released a cross gen game months after the release of a new console.



It's not like they proposed to make everything cross-gen for a couple of years, but...

... not only did they release cross-gen games post launch:

... they even went and backported PS4 exclusives to the PS3 later on:

There's more games. Such terrible support!... /s
 
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The Alien

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This is a pretty bad take. I love when "games journalists" gaslight us 'entitled' gamers. "No....YOU have it all wrong. When he said clearly defined generations, it was YOU who misunderstood".

I don't even give a shit about PS5/PS4 games. I found it crazy that Sony would drop huge, expensive to make games in the first year (Morales, HZD2, etc) and relegate them to a ~3 million launch install base vs. a 100 million install base (especially if u look at Miles as an upgraded PS4 game).
 
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Deer/Dur
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As I saw it, MS led off with a "we don't believe in generations" line for a variety of self-serving business reasons, Sony responded (as they do) by presenting the opposite viewpoint ("we believe in generations") for equally self-serving business reasons.

Some "fans" decided to take these comments and expanded them to black and white declarations of absolute commitment to no next-gen only, and only next-gen going forward. Both of these things, of course, being ridiculous. Sony was never going to simply abandon a 110m strong PS4 install-base, the same way that Xbox was never going to mandate that every Series X/S title also had a X1S/X1X counterpart because both approaches would simply make no business sense.

This is all blindingly obvious if you stop to think about it.

As to the ludicrous notion that in order to deserve development on the new gen of hardware, it must be designed such that it could only ever be built with that spec in mind? This is straight-up lunacy! When games as ambitious as RDR2 exist and run on systems with a fraction of the power and i/o capability of the next gen, does it make any sort of sense to think that every upcoming title is going to be even more advanced? In time developers will find a way to raise the bar, but in the launch window?

Get real.
 

vkbest

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This movement from Sony shows how many people is stupid on this community and don’t have credibility. Before and during last conference people though those games looked like next gen games with that gameplay. Sony announces those games are cross gen, and immediately those incredible graphics are from current gen.
 

Humdinger

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It's not like they proposed to make everything cross-gen for a couple of years, but...

... not only did they release cross-gen games post launch:

... they even went and backported PS4 exclusives to the PS3 later on:

There's more games. Such terrible support!... /s

Yeah, there were several indie cross gen titles at launch as well.

It is true that the majority of their AAA titles (Knack and Killzone) were exclusive to the new platform. However, it's worth noticing two things about that generational shift that are different this time: 1) PS4 had a long dry spell before exclusives of much worth released. It went on a couple years, iirc, because they'd loaded great games into the tail end of the PS3 lifecycle (e.g., TLoU); in a way, it was similar to the situation MS finds themselves in now. And 2) the development environments were quite different (PS3 vs. PS4, as opposed to 4 vs. 5), making cross-gen development trickier. I think those two factors are at least partly responsible for why there were arguably fewer cross-gen games then vs. now.

p.s. Oh, and a third factor would be the massive install base of the PS4. PS3 was successful, but not on the level of PS4. I'm sure that figured into the decision to make some of these games cross-gen. You don't want to cut your own throat if you can help it.
 
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SlicedBread3

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How is it shitty? Why is it such a big deal? They aren't taking money from you. They aren't forcing you to buy the console. They aren't attacking your person. They made a business move that would make them more money - a move they have done during the PS2, PS3, and PS4 gens as well. A move that has been done by almost every last multi-generational console manufacturer.

I can't remember them doing it at all during the PS2 and PS3 era. And no blockbusters like Horizon were Cross-Gen during the PS4 transistion. Besides Little big planet the other examples were indie games that weren't even first party. Whether you're fine with it or not, this is a NEW precedent being set.
 
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quest

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As I saw it, MS led off with a "we don't believe in generations" line for a variety of self-serving business reasons, Sony responded (as they do) by presenting the opposite viewpoint ("we believe in generations") for equally self-serving business reasons.

Some "fans" decided to take these comments and expanded them to black and white declarations of absolute commitment to no next-gen only, and only next-gen going forward. Both of these things, of course, being ridiculous. Sony was never going to simply abandon a 110m strong PS4 install-base, the same way that Xbox was never going to mandate that every Series X/S title also had a X1S/X1X counterpart because both approaches would simply make no business sense.

This is all blindingly obvious if you stop to think about it.

As to the ludicrous notion that in order to deserve development on the new gen of hardware, it must be designed such that it could only ever be built with that spec in mind? This is straight-up lunacy! When games as ambitious as RDR2 exist and run on systems with a fraction of the power and i/o capability of the next gen, does it make any sort of sense to think that every upcoming title is going to be even more advanced? In time developers will find a way to raise the bar, but in the launch window?

Get real.
Gee I wonder why the warriors ran with it. Could it be because Sony hid the existence of the playstation 4 versions of those games for 6 months while Microsoft was getting destroyed by the media. Could it be because insomniac flat out lied about miles being ps4 dlc/expansion to hid the existence of ps4 version of miles. Sony could of cleared this up anytime the last 6 months but enjoyed the negative press Microsoft was getting. It does not hurt to knowing they have the media in their pockets only 1 legitimate reporter called them out for the lies and deceit. So they can get away with these tactics with out negative press. It sucks the media was able to do the right thing in 2013 but not now they are part of the Sony propaganda machine so scared of them since they are so dominant in the market.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

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I can't remember them doing it at all during the PS2 and PS3 era. And no blockbusters like Horizon were Cross-Gen during the PS4 transistion. Besides Little big planet the other examples were indie games that weren't even first party. Whether you're fine with it or not, this is a NEW precedent being set.

You literally just proved that it isn't a new precedent in your own post. Horizon wasn't even a launch title. It released three and a half years after launch.
 
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Gee I wonder why the warriors ran with it. Could it be because Sony hid the existence of the playstation 4 versions of those games for 6 months while Microsoft was getting destroyed by the media. Could it be because insomniac flat out lied about miles being ps4 dlc/expansion to hid the existence of ps4 version of miles. Sony could of cleared this up anytime the last 6 months but enjoyed the negative press Microsoft was getting. It does not hurt to knowing they have the media in their pockets only 1 legitimate reporter called them out for the lies and deceit. So they can get away with these tactics with out negative press. It sucks the media was able to do the right thing in 2013 but not now they are part of the Sony propaganda machine so scared of them since they are so dominant in the market.

If it was a Sony propaganda machine more comment would be made about how the Series S is realistically likely to hold back next gen development in a far more impactful and enduring way than any cross-generational product will. Because Its being pushed on the impression that all that >4Tf, 6 more Gb of ram and much higher bus speed gains is a higher resolution version of the same thing.
 
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Agent X

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It’s very different. Sony have pretty much always dropped software support for the previous generation instantly, at most releasing 1 more game on the previous generation. They never released a cross gen game months after the release of a new console.

Wow, you are, like, so wrong here.

I wrote about this previously, but it's certainly worth repeating now:

PS3's extended support after PS4 release mostly consisted of LBP3, MLB The Show, and downloadable games where they shared resources with PS4 & Vita releases. I mean, that doesn't sound like anything to brag about on the surface, but here's a hard-hitting fact to ponder: Sony released a larger number of first-party games for PS3 in 2014, than Microsoft released for Xbox One throughout 2018 and 2019 combined.

Don't take my word for it. Let the game lists from Wikipedia tell the story:

List of Sony first-party games

List of Microsoft first-party games
 
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quest

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If it was a Sony propaganda machine more comment would be made about how the Series S is realistically likely to hold back next gen development in a far more impactful and enduring way than any cross-generational product will. Because Its being pushed on the impression that all that >4Tf, 6 more Gb of ram and much higher bus speed gains is a higher resolution version of the same thing.
This is hardly positive about the series s. The only positives in the press about the series s was the size when they got a mock version.

"So, while the PS5 Digital Edition is a next-gen console through and through (with a small discount for the lack of disc drive), the Series S seems more similar to a last-gen console in terms of its graphical output, while still being able to play the latest games."



"Xbox Series S will generally not hit the same frame rates as its Sony competitor, particularly for new and demanding games. (Frame rate is a function of a system’s processor, GPU and RAM.) "

 

SlicedBread3

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You literally just proved that it isn't a new precedent in your own post. Horizon wasn't even a launch title. It released three and a half years after launch.

Obviously I'm referring to Horizon 2 being cross gen.

You claimed it's been happening since the PS2 gen, provide examples please because like I said LBP3 is the closest one I can find, which isn't on the same level. (I don't remember Sony using it as their ending showstopper during the PS4 presentation like they did with H:FE). No one would really care too much if it was just the Sackboy game being Cross-Gen. It's the high budget "system seller" games like Horizon and Halo that make this situation different.
 
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Claus Grimhildyr

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Obviously I'm referring to Horizon 2 being cross gen.

You claimed it's been happening since the PS2 gen, provide examples please because like I said LBP3 is the closest one I can find, which isn't on the same level. (I don't remember Sony using it as their ending showstopper during the PS4 presentation like they did with H:FE). No one would really care too much if it was just the Sackboy game being Cross-Gen. It's the high budget "system seller" games like Horizon and Halo that make this situation different.

No, it wasn't obvious. Simply stating "horizon" does not indicate someone should know you are talking about its sequel. Do better.

As for examples? Literally the first thing I get when I look up "Sony PS2/PS3 simultaneous release games". It really isn't hard to do:

Also no, it doesn't matter what games whether they are AAA, AA, or A - its a non issue and you are getting your undergarments in a bunch over nothing. If you want the slightly improved, graphically stronger title - you get it on the new system. If you want the slightly weaker one, get it on the old. This has been the way things are for decades.

Anyone with basic critical thinking would have seen this coming and knew Sony was lying. Except for Console Fanboys as they clearly have no braincells.
 
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Kagey K

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Dualshockers is the perfect example of how much fun it has been to watch the narrative change and the goalposts shift this week.

There’s a lesson about getting all the information before spouting stuff off as facts to be learned here, but it looks like it’ll be missed by a lot of people.
 

sobaka770

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You're comparing a failing PS3 that Sony wanted to move away from to PS4, which is the best thing that happened to the company since PS2.

PS3 was a disaster to develop for especially as cross-gen wasn't the same processor tech. It didn't make sense and the whole goal for Sony was to move away ASAP seeing the goodwill from the customers ever since the reveal in February. Even then GT6 came out after PS4 launch as a PS3 exclusive.

Yes, it's hypocritical to blame MS for saying the same thing that Sony is doing but it's also clear that MS has a much worse messaging around what they want to do. There can be no Series X exclusive for the near future as Series S exists, they truly want their games to run on PC which means games requiring SSD for all exclusives is a big question mark. Sony just does a business decision for Horizon to not abandon 50+ million existing PS4 customers who won't get PS5 in 1st half of 2021 because there will be not enough consoles to sell. The "believing in generations" talk means nothing and Sony may actually believe in this but still release next-gen games when it makes finanacial sense just as MS scales everything to low-end PC because they stuff their games on Gamepass.
 
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Dualshockers is the perfect example of how much fun it has been to watch the narrative change and the goalposts shift this week.

There’s a lesson about getting all the information before spouting stuff off as facts to be learned here, but it looks like it’ll be missed by a lot of people.

I think a lot of outlets took what Jim Ryan said and ran with the idea that he meant no cross-gen games, even though it isn't what he said, so in that sense I think you're right, but Jim Ryan didn't move a goalpost, his wording was careful and didn't say anything about leaving behind the PS4 entirely. You can check.
 

SlicedBread3

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No, it wasn't obvious. Simply stating "horizon" does not indicate someone should know you are talking about its sequel. Do better.

As for examples? Literally the first thing I get when I look up "Sony PS2/PS3 simultaneous release games". It really isn't hard to do:

Also no, it doesn't matter what games whether they are AAA, AA, or A - its a non issue and you are getting your undergarments in a bunch over nothing. If you want the slightly improved, graphically stronger title - you get it on the new system. If you want the slightly weaker one, get it on the old. This has been the way things are for decades.

Anyone with basic critical thinking would have seen this coming and knew Sony was lying. Except for Console Fanboys as they clearly have no braincells.

Pretty obvious, context is important. Be better.

And I can see you have issues with that because you responded with an example of a third party multi-platform game when this thread is about first party exclusives 🤣.

I'm not even saying I have a problem with Cross-Gen, I have a problem with you and others trying to push this false narrative that this is the same as it's always been. And yes whether it's AAA or not is important because you're asking what the difference is and I'm trying to point out the difference is the AAA first party exclusives have very rarely, if ever been cross-gen. The closest I can think of is LBP3 (and someone above me mentioned MLB) but you can't honestly say there's no difference between those and games like Horizon and Halo being Cross-Gen.

Nintendo have released Cross-Gen Zelda games, but they were announced for the last gen platforms first so again, not really the same situation.

Edit: Forza Horizon 2!!! Knew there might be one I was forgetting. Ok so present set on the Xbox side, but not on Playstation.
 
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Lets be honest, not all generational transitions are equal. PS2 to PS3 was as radical a shake-up as you can get past the transition between the playfield and polygonal eras.
PS3 to PS4, not so much, as was 360 to X1 because although the processor architecture changed the general display model remained consistently similar to the PC standards as defined in OpenGL and DirectX.

This gen is a further evolution along the same lines.
 

Jigsaah

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You do not get it again, reading off a script or just not bothering?

My point: “website, you are embarrassing yourself... sure you can add a nice lick of paint and add some objects and make it look better, but it is held back on the PS5 if it has to run also on the PS4 as it needs to keep its limitations and performance in mind”

How is it different from me saying XSS (and Xbox One focus for the next two years) holds XSX back?

If so, sure I will keep having the same approach for both thanks ;).
The point is...did you or anybody else ask the question at all when it comes to the Xbox. Based on what I've seen from threads in the past, its always been xbox DEFENDING itself against assumptions that the XSS wouldn't hold back next gen games when they have said time and time again that it wouldn't.

The difference is that now that PS5 is taking a similar approach(arguably even more aggressive) to Xbox cross gen strategy, now people are asking questions, rather than making assumptions, though Sony hasn't said a goddamn thing about their position on this.'

The point is that the default position of most of the community is that cross gen for 1 or 2 years on Xbox would hold back games. Where as Jim Ryan saying 3-4 years of cross gen prompts polite questioning.

It's this blatant bias that bothers me.
 
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kungfuian

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Both Microsoft and Sony have been 'less than forthcoming' regarding their cross gen plans. Gamers hate this type of 'deceptive' shit and they deserve the push back. But ultimately all that really matters to me is the execution.

In the example of Halo Infinite, the game was/is clearly held back by it's cross gen development and it looks the part. If on the other hand they had shown a kick ass visually impressive XSX version and then the OG X1 version ended up way scaled down and missing features no one would really care.

Same goes for PS5, if a bunch of the games come in looking less than next gen or similar to the PS4 version because they are tied to PS4 development then lame. If PS5 games come in looking significantly better than their PS4 versions because they were created from the ground up for PS5 and then down ported to a PS4, then who cares.

Gamers expecting to see the full power of these machines at launch should know better. Always takes a few years. And supporting the existing player base with cross gen games until then is pretty much standard and kind of needed from a business perspective.

Seems simple enough, gamers will vote with their dollars if they believe the respective versions warrant purchase. If the PS4/PS5/XSX/XSS versions aren't up to snuff people won't buy them.
 
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LoL. Agree with the second part of the statement (from a businessman perspective) but it's disingenuous to say the first part. Load of BS.

At least we have Demon Souls. And Sackboy well.... nobody expects platformers to push APU's to melting point. I could forgive Miles but Horizon II is a crime.
 
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CatLady

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I think a lot of outlets took what Jim Ryan said and ran with the idea that he meant no cross-gen games, even though it isn't what he said, so in that sense I think you're right, but Jim Ryan didn't move a goalpost, his wording was careful and didn't say anything about leaving behind the PS4 entirely. You can check.

He sure as hell didn't make the slightest attempt to correct the misleading impression he'd created that was getting PS5 great PR in the media and with the horde of over-zealous Sony followers until right before preorders went live. It only took a few hours to correct the negative PR from the Bloomberg production story though. Strange isn't it?
 
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He sure as hell didn't make the slightest attempt to correct the misleading impression he'd created that was getting PS5 great PR in the media and with the horde of over-zealous Sony followers until right before preorders went live. It only took a few hours to correct the negative PR from the Bloomberg production story though. Strange isn't it?

It's true, and they didn't announce MM and HFW were cross-gen until a bit before pre-orders went live. I'd never argue he isn't slimy I just think he's slimy enough that he actually worded what he originally said so as not to be caught in a lie. Honestly that announcement for HFW was like a gut punch when I read it. I haven't stopped wondering how it will affect the game.
 

DarkBatman

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He sure as hell didn't make the slightest attempt to correct the misleading impression he'd created that was getting PS5 great PR in the media and with the horde of over-zealous Sony followers until right before preorders went live. It only took a few hours to correct the negative PR from the Bloomberg production story though. Strange isn't it?

Let's be honest though: That's called PR.
Phil would act exactly the same. That's business. And Sony and MS are playing the same business game.
It's not about the consumer. It's about giving the consumers the feeling it's just about their well-being while sucking the money right out of their pockets.
 

CatLady

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It's true, and they didn't announce MM and HFW were cross-gen until a bit before pre-orders went live. I'd never argue he isn't slimy I just think he's slimy enough that he actually worded what he originally said so as not to be caught in a lie. Honestly that announcement for HFW was like a gut punch when I read it. I haven't stopped wondering how it will affect the game.

I can understand that, but even though the game looks this gen to me, it still looks pretty damn good and the art direction especially the underwater stuff is gorgeous.

Think of how Xbox fans feel with Infinite. Not only were the graphics not up to par, the art direction was ugly af. It was heart-breaking after those early trailers with some of the most beautiful art I've ever seen for a game. What happened, did 343 decide this looks way too pretty, we need to ugly it up? Fucking clowns.
 
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I can understand that, but even though the game looks this gen to me, it still looks pretty damn good and the art direction especially the underwater stuff is gorgeous.

Think of how Xbox fans feel with Infinite. Not only were the graphics not up to par, the art direction was ugly af. It was heart-breaking after those early trailers with some of the most beautiful art I've ever seen for a game. What happened, did 343 decide this looks way too pretty, we need to ugly it up? Fucking clowns.

I couldn't say for sure what happened, I think 343i are kinda underwhelming as a studio but Halo 4 and 5 were NOT ugly... so it's weird this happened. I'm wondering how it looks when it comes out the other end of its delay. Honestly my favorite exclusive franchises are all having such issues... Metroid Prime 4 in development hell, Killzone and Resistance seemingly abandoned, Halo in trouble... woe is me.
 
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Platform holders abandoning their current boxes as soon as they have new and shiny ones to sell is kinda dickish imho. A tapering-off type of support from first party seems like the best way to keep everyone happiest, longest.

That being said, when games take at least a couple of years to make it can't be easy to control or even plan for. Especially when devs are being given new kit to figure out so anything intended to highlight the new features could end up rushed or delayed.

Point is, designing for things like the faster i/o which would have to be done at project inception, then realizing that in time for launch is no mean feat. Its going to take a couple of years before we start seeing it really ingrained in the way games are designed. Its a testament to how efficient Insomniac are that they have Ratchet+Clank in such an advanced state as a showcase.

Cross-generation should be expected to be the standard, and next-gen only to be the exception for awhile. Given the time and cost requirements to develop games nowadays, more than ever its pretty much unavoidable.
 

CatLady

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I couldn't say for sure what happened, I think 343i are kinda underwhelming as a studio but Halo 4 and 5 were NOT ugly... so it's weird this happened. I'm wondering how it looks when it comes out the other end of its delay. Honestly my favorite exclusive franchises are all having such issues... Metroid Prime 4 in development hell, Killzone and Resistance seemingly abandoned, Halo in trouble... woe is me.

Exactly! Halo 4 especially. To this day it looks better than most games THIS gen. I don't think Halo 5 looked as good as 4 but it was pretty and Infinite was miles away from 4. .... Seems like 343 goes backwards with each game. Probably too busy coloring their danger hair and having diversity meetings to waste time focusing on Halo.
 
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Panajev2001a

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The point is...did you or anybody else ask the question at all when it comes to the Xbox. Based on what I've seen from threads in the past, its always been xbox DEFENDING itself against assumptions that the XSS wouldn't hold back next gen games when they have said time and time again that it wouldn't.

The difference is that now that PS5 is taking a similar approach(arguably even more aggressive) to Xbox cross gen strategy, now people are asking questions, rather than making assumptions, though Sony hasn't said a goddamn thing about their position on this.'

The point is that the default position of most of the community is that cross gen for 1 or 2 years on Xbox would hold back games. Where as Jim Ryan saying 3-4 years of cross gen prompts polite questioning.

It's this blatant bias that bothers me.

1.) you are not talking to someone happy about cross generation titles, so you are wasting your breath (You would be better to read what people write with some care). The titles that are coming out at PS5’s launch and at the same time for PS4 too are being held back by PS4 and that sucks for me too. If Sony has 0 true PS5 exclusive first party games in the whole launch window I will be quite pissed off too.

2.) You, and others in the Xbox group, have a persecution/victim complex... and are disregarding that Xbox said no first part exclusive titles at all for the first 1-2 years in your Sony-too tirade. Some games still shipping for the previous generation before and after launch vs all for a year or two are different cases and you know that.

3.) You are making things up or being intentionally disingenuous when you try to argue a case for no exclusive PS5 titles by Sony for 3-4 years. Same thing about your Sony-too about Sony’s strategy being the same if not even more aggressive (maybe because they did not hold back titles to try to pad launch creating a fraught for current customers... something they have done for over 20 years abd multiple console m generations?!?)
 
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Panajev2001a

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Platform holders abandoning their current boxes as soon as they have new and shiny ones to sell is kinda dickish imho. A tapering-off type of support from first party seems like the best way to keep everyone happiest, longest.

That being said, when games take at least a couple of years to make it can't be easy to control or even plan for. Especially when devs are being given new kit to figure out so anything intended to highlight the new features could end up rushed or delayed.

Point is, designing for things like the faster i/o which would have to be done at project inception, then realizing that in time for launch is no mean feat. Its going to take a couple of years before we start seeing it really ingrained in the way games are designed. Its a testament to how efficient Insomniac are that they have Ratchet+Clank in such an advanced state as a showcase.

Cross-generation should be expected to be the standard, and next-gen only to be the exception for awhile. Given the time and cost requirements to develop games nowadays, more than ever its pretty much unavoidable.

Sony has managed good start of gen and great end of generation (and mid) periods with first and third party game releases, but it is to be expected to have some new exclusive titles too for the generations model we are fond of. It is up to them to help make an awesome case for their new generation HW.
 

Hairsplash

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Not really. That's PS4 unit sales. How many million bought OG PS4 then a Pro?

actually i bought the destiny special editon white console,, and also the destiny two special edition white console, and the ps4pro preorder release edition...
 
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Typical_Leo

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The problem with this generation is that graphics aren't as much an issue, but moving to optimised SSD"s (which were touted as the next greatest leap in consoles) , wood create scenarios we couldn't have before.

I still remember horizon zero dawn developers talking about how they wanted to introduce flight, but couldn't because of HDD's. Plus the obvious limitations of spider-man swinging speed.

You can't just introduce a new or streamlined mechanic and not have it in the previous generation game you're releasing at the same time. It would be two completely different versions of the game. Last Microsoft and especially Sony, have pulled something out of their ass that we're not aware of, I don't see any oadvantages other than having resolution frame rate and graphics. It would just be faster loading times and less pop-in.

Don't get me wrong resolution, graphics, and and frame rate are fantastic benefits, but we know much more can be introduced to the game world but it isn't going to happened for the first few first party games