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[Shadow780]

I've always wanted to, but it's interesting how I can languish very comfortably in the wild and overblown pomposity of a Kessen or DW title, but as soon as you drop that flamboyance into a game set in Medieval Europe, I'm a little iffy.

I should do myself a favour though.

I have a special place in my heart for Kessen 3. Don't most fans count K2 as the high point?

I loved both, also Dynasty Tactics!

I feel like most of their strategy/tactical games are under appreciated because the core audience that likes those games are dwindling every year.

 

[Boogalogist]

Came across this combo video just now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_eSQxQkF1M
(Note: It's a video to show off crazy juggle combos you can do and not show off the normal stage gameplay.)

I love all the stuff you can do with DW7s combat engine. DW7 Empires can't be announced soon enough. DW7's combat + Empires battles = I can't wait!

Holy shit!! That's a damn nice showcase of juggle combos!! WHY ISN'T THIS IN WO3!?!? I'd love to have the ability to switch weapons AND multiple musous!

Before that, I worked on both the Orochi 2 PSP port and the DW6 PSP port.

Thank you very much. I spent countless hours on those games on the PSP. I extend my most sincere gratitude to you for working on such great games!!

 

[EYEL1NER]

I'm curious about your complaint about Troy: in my mind, I know my list of complaints (and trust me, if I want to get nitpicky, 10+ points long), but I want to see how well it matches up with what other people see. Do you mind writing it out (I'll post mines afterwards for the sake of comparison)? Personally, I look at Troy as the eventual outcome of any attempt to marry a musou game to "western games". It ends up still being a weak western style action game, but manages to piss off every other musou fan.

If I can ever get my hands on a copy, I'll let you know what I think of it.
If there is one thing I love out there, it's some Greek mythology.

 

[madp]

But I can't help wishing for someone else to step in and force Koei to improve. The traditional characters are so well established and so larger-than-life in themselves that anyone could make a new take on people like Lu Bu, Guan Yu and Xiahou Dun. Problem is, most seem to settle for perverted schoolgirl reimaginings....

Are you referring to stuff like Koihime Musou? It's true, Japan tends to have zero clue how to handle RotTK characters outside of video games*, though have you ever seen Souten Kouro? It tends toward the unrealistic/epic/superhuman and takes the unusual step of making Cao Cao the protagonist, but it's one of the best (and least creepy/most little girl-free) RotTK works of the previous few years. I'd recommend it.

I'd agree, though, that it would be great to see other developers try their hand at making different types of games using RotTK characters. I'm a completely unrepentant Musou fan and think that Koei does the characters justice, but considering how popular RotTK is in Japan, I'm really surprised that we don't see the characters used more often. I know that this is the same company, but a Tecmo action game starring Lu Bu would be boss if done correctly.

*

Spoiler

I know that Koihime originated as a game but the animation is better-known, afaik

 

[AdawgDaFAB]

But I can't help wishing for someone else to step in and force Koei to improve. The traditional characters are so well established and so larger-than-life in themselves that anyone could make a new take on people like Lu Bu, Guan Yu and Xiahou Dun. Problem is, most seem to settle for perverted schoolgirl reimaginings...

I've always wanted to see how a Sangoku BASARA game would turn out, but I sadly don't see Capcom ever making one. I just really love the gameplay of SB3 / SB3U and would be interested in seeing them give the Three Kingdoms era a try some day. Despite the SB games stage designs being more like beat-em up game levels than a massive battlefield filled with people to fight with / help, they are pretty much the only serious competition Koei has in the genre.

 

[EYEL1NER]

Holy shit!! That's a damn nice showcase of juggle combos!! WHY ISN'T THIS IN WO3!?!? I'd love to have the ability to switch weapons AND multiple musous!

Just watched it. It's some straight-up fighting game shit! Juggles and OTG hits? I need to put some more time into DW7 when I finish Strikeforce.

 

[Shadow780]

Holy shit!! That's a damn nice showcase of juggle combos!! WHY ISN'T THIS IN WO3!?!? I'd love to have the ability to switch weapons AND multiple musous!

You can switch character cancel in WO3 which is a substitute for switching weapons, multiple musous? Multiple characters in WO3!

Oh and that KOEI is lazy.

 

[TreIII]

The only real complaint that I have with the Musou games is that they need to just make Empires mode (but not that travesty that was 6 Empires) standard in the main games, because Empires is one of the most brilliant design decisions ever.

So much this.

An Empires stand-alone won't do much for the casual gamer, but adding on more content to the "base" release could only make things better.

Reasons why your typical player may not care much for your Musou game anymore:
1)Foreign theme: People gravitate to recognizable themes, with easily identifiable characters, pronounceable names, etc. Is chinese/japanese history high on that list? Do your general public even know who Nobunaga is? I can almost bet it's a no. So to them, the theme is already a lost cause: unnamed guy fighting unnamed guy. That's what it's going to look like. Other spinoffs using other licensed properties have the same issue: leveraging brands that aren't entirely mainstream - You'll service those fans greatly, but that's about it.

This is easily what I see to be one of the bigger issues. For the East, certainly, the ROT3K story and the Sengoku period are very much relevant and the Musou series is a nice celebration of it all, much like how COD and similar games tend to be just the right thing that cater to the "AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!" crowd. But take those games out of their "element", and of course, it doesn't go over nearly as well for anything beyond that target audience.

 

[wiggleb0t]

but it DID improve with each revision. Look up a video of DW3 and a video of DW7 and tell me honestly that it looks the exact same, and I'll tell you that you need glasses.

Not enough of a difference between them... They made slightly better visuals..That's the norm when you bring out new games...Character animations, non existant ai and everything else looks about the same...
I would love the game as mentioned it would be action goty if the concept was given a fresh new engine and had more depth to the combat. Really enjoyed them back in the day but it got stale real fast! I'm not one to hate for the fun of it.. The game could be great but it's like it appeals to enough people that they don't feel the need or can't improve much.

 

[Seraphis Cain]

Amazing post, AlphaTwo00. I really can't thank you enough for taking the time to write all that out.

As for Troy (you'll have to forgive me if any of my recollections here are off a bit, it's been a while)...

• There just didn't seem to be much "urgency" to the battles, since it seemed like nothing would happen unless you triggered it yourself.
• Combat felt really slow and stiff. Like, even moreso than Fist of the North Star.
• I just absolutely hated the boss fights.
• No Free Mode was the biggest problem I had with DW7, and it hurts Troy even worse. Being able to play any stage with any character is one of the best things about Musou games. And while DW7 had Conquest Mode, Troy's Challenge Mode was a letdown.
• WAAAAY too short. The main reason I buy Musou games is because they last me an obscenely long time (150 hours and climbing in WO3). Troy was over way too quickly and I didn't feel a lot of incentive to go back and play more. The Unique Items were neat, but I just didn't feel a lot of motivation to try to get them.
• I guess, to sum it up, I just didn't really have a lot of fun with it. To it's credit, it felt like it's heart was in the right place, but it just got so much of what makes a Musou game fun completely wrong.

I have to say though, I'm glad an attempt was made to make a more Western-focused Musou game, and I hope Troy isn't the last. I know fans have thrown around the idea of a Revolutionary War Musou, and I think that could be an interesting setting to try. Though maybe now that AC3 is using that setting, the timing's not quite good. :lol

Also

3)Lack of apparent depth: Your typical player may never see a)depth in the battlefield management and b)lack of combat depth.

Map management: A map with a blinking dot + event messages are ignored, and then they find their game randomly over because a general died elsewhere on the field. When a game inundates you with messages and pop-ups like a musou game does, most players start ignoring it because it's too much to read and becomes too noisy. So most people would ignore that part of the game.

...which leaves combat as the lone steward of the gameplay: Do people see the depth of the combos? Or do they see that the control mapping is all X, X, X, X... Gamers are lazy, and they will do XXXX because they game said they can. Which leads to two outcomes:

a)They can win - then they write off the combat as simplistic and boring button masher.
b)They die - then they blame the game for inadequate combat to allow them to win.

Yes. Yes yes yes. All of this. God, I can't even begin to count how many people I've seen play DW games like this, then write them off as terrible games simply because they didn't know what they were doing. Though I will acquiesce that some of this is Koei's fault, for not including any sort of tutorial in DW games. But still, it's sorta infuriating to see someone write a game off completely because they didn't take the time to learn how to play it.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, DW7 did have a tutorial, didn't it? With Guan Ping, if I'm remembering right.

 

[Shadow780]

I have to say though, I'm glad an attempt was made to make a more Western-focused Musou game, and I hope Troy isn't the last. I know fans have thrown around the idea of a Revolutionary War Musou, and I think that could be an interesting setting to try. Though maybe now that AC3 is using that setting, the timing's not quite good. :lol

We already have western Musou, it's Call of Duty.

 

[Evlar]

I don't like Dynasty Warriors because the gameplay feels like popping balloons carrying sticks.

 

[TreIII]

We already have western Musou, it's Call of Duty.

Not to mention that any attempt to try a "Western Musou" would likely only backfire, due to interest groups or anything else that would desire to keep things "PC".

I mean, I think a longtime joke is that people would love to see Capcom do something like give the "Revolutionary War" or the "Civil War" the BASARA treatment. But how well would that honestly go over, seeing how some Americans practically deify the founding fathers and there are plenty of other "touchy issues" to be concerned with?

Shoot, for that matter, neither Capcom or Koei alike will ever, EVER touch on things like Hideyoshi's "Korean Campaigns", simply because that's a hot button issue that they'll never include in Samurai Warriors/BASARA.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Amazing post, AlphaTwo00. I really can't thank you enough for taking the time to write all that out.

As for Troy (you'll have to forgive me if any of my recollections here are off a bit, it's been a while)...

• There just didn't seem to be much "urgency" to the battles, since it seemed like nothing would happen unless you triggered it yourself.
• Combat felt really slow and stiff. Like, even moreso than Fist of the North Star.
• I just absolutely hated the boss fights.
• No Free Mode was the biggest problem I had with DW7, and it hurts Troy even worse. Being able to play any stage with any character is one of the best things about Musou games. And while DW7 had Conquest Mode, Troy's Challenge Mode was a letdown.
• WAAAAY too short. The main reason I buy Musou games is because they last me an obscenely long time (150 hours and climbing in WO3). Troy was over way too quickly and I didn't feel a lot of incentive to go back and play more. The Unique Items were neat, but I just didn't feel a lot of motivation to try to get them.
• I guess, to sum it up, I just didn't really have a lot of fun with it. To it's credit, it felt like it's heart was in the right place, but it just got so much of what makes a Musou game fun completely wrong.

I'll address as much of this as I can (without blowing up some NDA stuff).

• Agreed on the urgency: I wasn't on board when this happened, but the urgency of moving on was basically nuked out when the battlefield management stuff went away. At some point, the game no longer inherited the battlefield like maps (there were one or two stages left that were like it left in the game) (and this is for reasons I can't go further into), and the sense of urgency to push forward disappeared. I think the strongest one ended up being "Chapter 12 Desperation" (where honestly, I still crack up every time the achievement for this stage pops up for escorting Agamemnon to get the "I'm too old for this shi...p"). However, as a babysit escort mission, it suffer like similar musou stage scenarios, and I'm sure it would have had more than it's share of complaints.
• Combat speed/movement: Two nuggets about this: 1) the initial goal for combat, in matching with the theme, was that it was going to be realistic, where combat has weight to it. 2)When I joined the project, I had a hand in speeding up a lot of the combat to where it is now. The parry/priority system for rolls and blocks was eventually something I pushed for to address the slowness of combat. I can't say anything more than that.
• I've had a hand in finishing up one of the boss fights. Yeah. They had issues. And from an outside designer looking in, the biggest problem with them was that they suffer from the "end-boss syndrome": none of them took the mechanics you've learned in the game, and artificially bounds you within an area for it.
• Short answer about Free-mode: too many story/gameplay elements were so closely tied to the playable character for the stage. Imagine anyone other than Paris/Odysseus fighting the Griffin?

I have to say though, I'm glad an attempt was made to make a more Western-focused Musou game, and I hope Troy isn't the last. I know fans have thrown around the idea of a Revolutionary War Musou, and I think that could be an interesting setting to try. Though maybe now that AC3 is using that setting, the timing's not quite good. :lol

Even before I joined Koei Canada, I had been thinking about that, and knowing that at the time their company focus was "western games", I've always joked about writing docs like that, and one of them would have been that theme. I think at one point I even made a joke cover to get the idea across using this:

Hell if I know how it would have worked, but that was such an iconic image that I wonder how things would have happened if it had happened.

Yes. Yes yes yes. All of this. God, I can't even begin to count how many people I've seen play DW games like this, then write them off as terrible games simply because they didn't know what they were doing. Though I will acquiesce that some of this is Koei's fault, for not including any sort of tutorial in DW games. But still, it's sorta infuriating to see someone write a game off completely because they didn't take the time to learn how to play it.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, DW7 did have a tutorial, didn't it? With Guan Ping, if I'm remembering right.

The way I look at it, a tutorial isn't a good way to go either. Because labelling something as tutorial is just begging for players to skip it. Your non-musou fans will look at this game, say "I KNOW ACTION GAMES, I PLAY GOD OF WAR", and skip the tutorial anyways. A nicer way is "to beat them gently over their head with a soft stick": Be gameplay areas, and show them why one move works over the other. Your core musou fans already love discovering which moves are different, but people who are indifferent/hate it don't care about the difference unless you show them visually why it's different, and when is a good time where it will make a difference.

 

[Loxley]

I've always thought Troy looked like a fun hack n' slash, were I ever to pick up a Dynasty Warriors-esque game, that would probably be it.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Not to mention that any attempt to try a "Western Musou" would likely only backfire, due to interest groups or anything else that would desire to keep things "PC".

I think you're limited the scope of what "Western Musou" can be. Troy tried to take on Greek mythology, and I think most european mythologies would translate well as "western musou". I think a long time ago I had jokingly mentioned a musou game where "you fight through the depths of hell" (and guess what, EA did it ).

On a more macro level, if you consider musou as the term "one vs many" (and not just the idea of being tied to history), then a game like Dead Rising is the perfect evolution of what a musou game is that ended up gaining more attention (and similar complaints) that most Dynasty Warrior games get.

 

[pancakesandsex]

I think you're limited the scope of what "Western Musou" can be. Troy tried to take on Greek mythology, and I think most european mythologies would translate well as "western musou". I think a long time ago I had jokingly mentioned a musou game where "you fight through the depths of hell" (and guess what, EA did it ).

On a more macro level, if you consider musou as the term "one vs many" (and not just the idea of being tied to history), then a game like Dead Rising is the perfect evolution of what a musou game is that ended up gaining more attention (and similar complaints) that most Dynasty Warrior games get.

Though you mentioned it earlier, what you're saying here completely ignores the macro level battlefield management aspect of the series, which I believe is essential to the musou formula. The gundam entries are so interesting because they play with this using their zone system. Orochi is not bound by it's historic roots and is free to design the battlefields with more interesting conditions. Entries like fist of the north star and troy are less successful because they eschew this to focus on an aspect of the series that becomes weaker when it stands alone, the one vs many combat.

 

[SapientWolf]

I really like Dynasty Warriors. But it needs to evolve into an hybrid game. RTS + BTA.

Look up Guilty Gear 2: Overture and the upcoming Kingdom Under Fire II. I will never understand how GG2 got the same reviews as the DW titles. They're just worlds apart in quality.

 

[Shadow780]

SRW Musou needs to happen at some point

 

[AlphaTwo00]

Though you mentioned it earlier, what you're saying here completely ignores the macro level battlefield management aspect of the series, which I believe is essential to the musou formula. The gundam entries are so interesting because they play with this using their zone system. Orochi is not bound by it's historic roots and is free to design the battlefields with more interesting conditions. Entries like fist of the north star and troy are less successful because they eschew this to focus on an aspect of the series that becomes weaker when it stands alone, the one vs many combat.

If you look at a game like Dead Rising, they're still bounded by you trying to rescue people at X location for certain objective. It's not the same, but it attempts it at some level. But for the most part, you're right: most attempts at musou don't have that vital part of the game.

And on a personal level, that's where I feel like the musou games has an identity issue. Battlefield management has 2 overarching issues:

1) Your casual players who dabbles into musou would only see a game as a hack and slash game, and would never think about the battlefield as a whole. If you ever tell them that they have to manage multiple battle (or worse, be in a fight, and prioritize to bail out on one to save a general at the other end of the map), then they balk at the gameplay calling it stupid.

2) Personally, I don't think there's any meaningful way to teach someone who doesn't understand macro management how to play it properly, so the ramp up for someone who doesn't get a musou game can be overwhelming: the most common thing overheard thing I remembered was "how did I just lose". There's no real nice way to teach someone what to do, and it takes a different type of gamer to think about that aspect of combat. In a way, it's no different than games like Battlefield, where teaching people that flag captures matter more than kills is almost always lost to most people.

EDIT: Before I go any further, I might as well slap a disclaimer if I make anymore posts: As Seraphis Cain have noted, yes, I once worked at Koei Canada (and am no longer employed by Koei). After shipping Troy, me and a whole host of people were downsized (I'll let you fill in the details), and if you really want to go through with reading up details about that, I had a post a while ago here.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

I'm still not willing to pay full price on this genre so the newest entries are out until they come down in price.

I'd like to try strikeforce, it sounds cool and is cheap. Any others?

And 99 nights is musou game isn't it? Is that worth a punt?

 

[Kai Dracon]

I love the musou genre in concept and I have great fun with Koei's games... but the biggest problem they have in winning people over is that they just don't update or tighten their play mechanics.

The prob the genre has with winning people over, is that in terms of raw play, I believe Capcom's Sengoku Basara 3 is the best game in the genre - it's not just good in comparison to Omega Force games, it's good enough to convince people who actively dislike Dynasty Warriors to play it. It's fantastic.

If you could combine the gameplay of Capcom's game with the depth and scope of Koei's titles, then son, you would really have something on your hands.

 

[Jarate]

If you look at a game like Dead Rising, they're still bounded by you trying to rescue people at X location for certain objective. It's not the same, but it attempts it at some level. But for the most part, you're right: most attempts at musou don't have that vital part of the game.

And on a personal level, that's where I feel like the musou games has an identity issue. Battlefield management has 2 overarching issues:

1) Your casual players who dabbles into musou would only see a game as a hack and slash game, and would never think about the battlefield as a whole. If you ever tell them that they have to manage multiple battle (or worse, be in a fight, and prioritize to bail out on one to save a general at the other end of the map), then they balk at the gameplay calling it stupid.

2) Personally, I don't think there's any meaningful way to teach someone who doesn't understand macro management how to play it properly, so the ramp up for someone who doesn't get a musou game can be overwhelming: the most common thing overheard thing I remembered was "how did I just lose". There's no real nice way to teach someone what to do, and it takes a different type of gamer to think about that aspect of combat. In a way, it's no different than games like Battlefield, where teaching people that flag captures matter more than kills is almost always lost to most people.

why do we always get these stories of mentally retarded playtesters. Why do you playtest the lowest common denominator for niche games like Dynasty Warriors?

also, Ive always felt the best way to do a warriors game would do an Orochi Essque game, just with no Dynasty Warriors/Samurai Warriors characters. Imagine playing a game with George Washington fighting Ghenghis Kahn

 

[Htown]

So for those actually familiar with these games:

Which is better to start with for someone that hasn't really played these before: Samurai Warriors 3 or Sengoku Basara Samurai Heroes?

 

[Jarate]

So for those actually familiar with these games:

Which is better to start with for someone that hasn't really played these before: Samurai Warriors 3 or Sengoku Basara Samurai Heroes?

Sengoku Basara

Samurai Warriors 3 kind of sucks, it itsn't helped either it's on the wii, felt really toned down to fit it on there

 

[Htown]

Sengoku Basara

Samurai Warriors 3 kind of sucks, it itsn't helped either it's on the wii, felt really toned down to fit it on there

I should clarify, both are Wii versions.

 

[Astery]

I think for those who buy every god damn dynasty warrior game is just buying for the moe characters. The reason koei have to change character designs here and there in every iteration. Or, the brand characters (Gundam, One Piece etc.). The gameplay is really meh and repetitive, there's no improvement over the years, except adding minor things that really doesn't change much. The core is still the 2 button combos over the years. I won't blame them if this is what the devs want to keep it as a accessible game, but milking it with character model changes every year for 10+ years straight is why I think it is garbage.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

why do we always get these stories of mentally retarded playtesters. Why do you playtest the lowest common denominator for niche games like Dynasty Warriors?

By mentally retarded play testers (which by the way, I'm not even saying they were play testers), you mean the mass market? As a designer, I need to take in every comment and complaints from everyone, and formulate a response on what works and what doesn't. If I can talk to close friends and let them play DW games, and they don't get it (and they're well versed in many other games), then it doesn't matter if the fans think it's easy to get: there is a gap between fans who get it, and others who don't.

Personally, there are two ways of looking at Dynasty Warriors:

1)Dynasty Warrior is a niche game and a niche genre, and Koei should embrace it (and we see this with the Orochi games)
2)Dynasty Warrior is a game that has mass market appeal, and it's just that the mass market has not discovered yet (and Troy, in a way was an attempt at that by taking more "mainstream" elements)

If you take the former, then we wouldn't have this thread: fans are more than comfortable with the game being as they are, and we don't really need to care people hating on the franchise. More importantly, if you look at some of the Media Create numbers, you can be certain that most musou games land around 300K sales, no matter how good/bad they are.

If you take the latter, however, you're stuck with our thread and the dilemma: Why do people not like DW games? What can you do to bridge that gap? If you trying appeasing that gap, what consequences does it have on the musou feel of it.


Musou has an issue of being many things to many people, and not all of it are the same: Some people identify the large cast of characters as a musou staple, some identify the battlefield management stuff, others identify the grinding and loot aspect. So where do you put the knife down when you need to change stuff for a wider appeal? I remember first playing DW6 with the Renbu system, and I thought it was interesting, and polarizing way of doing it (and in general, absolutely hated by the most vocal ones).

 

[Jarate]

I should clarify, both are Wii versions.

Sengoku Basara still. Samurai Warriors 3 wasn't that good.

I would suggest DW7 or Orochi 3 if you have the ability.

 

[Sqorgar]

2) Personally, I don't think there's any meaningful way to teach someone who doesn't understand macro management how to play it properly, so the ramp up for someone who doesn't get a musou game can be overwhelming: the most common thing overheard thing I remembered was "how did I just lose". There's no real nice way to teach someone what to do, and it takes a different type of gamer to think about that aspect of combat. In a way, it's no different than games like Battlefield, where teaching people that flag captures matter more than kills is almost always lost to most people.

The early DW games - especially DW3 - had the guard captains. It became pretty obvious halfway through a level that taking the gates affects the flow of the battlefield greatly. And because guard captains dropped defense stat upgrades (in DW3), players would actively try to close the gates rather than just ignoring them.

(In later games, it was just as easy to ignore the gates, and DW7 took out gates altogether)

However, stuff like morale is never properly explained. Hell, after 20+ Musou games, I still don't really understand it. I know that it affects whether troops have an easier or tougher time defeating other troops, but I'm not really sure how much or really even what affects morale other than killing captains. I mean, is it easier to defeat Lu Bu if you get max morale first and have closed off all the gates? It has to be, but I'm not sure how or why.

I also really liked the mission in the first Samurai Warriors. The field would change depending on how successful you were at various missions, even leading to alternate story paths. In the options, there was a list of all the missions in each level so you could figure out which missions you had gotten or missed. The later SW games do this too, but I didn't feel it was quite as pronounced - though SWC incorporates the four playable generals in a way that encourages players to think tactically, which I like.

I think for those who buy every god damn dynasty warrior game is just buying for the moe characters. ... but milking it with character model changes every year for 10+ years straight is why I think it is garbage.

Boy, you couldn't be more wrong. The gameplay changes quite a bit. Every Musou game does something different I really like, and something different I really don't like. This makes every Musou game a different experience that is neither better than, nor worse than previous iterations. There's no perfect Musou game, but in a way, that's a good thing.

 

[Brandon F]

Some games handle the battlefield management and character progression REALLY well(DW5, SW1-3), but others really do not(DW7).

Some people prefer not to be bombarded with constant subquests that force you towards a specific path on the map, especially when failure leads to severe repercussions and enhanced difficulty for winning the battle(later games and SW). It is understandable that some players want to choose how to carve their way through the dangers of each battlefield, conquering at their leisure.(earlier games)

Some games provide hefty character progression with persistent items to equip across all warriors, weapon customization and skill trees. Other games are very passive, and focus on improving passive stat gains.

Then there are the people that have no idea what I am talking about and usually write piss-poor reviews that speak nothing in regards to the core design conceit. "Hit square a lot!" Witty!

 

[Jarate]

By mentally retarded play testers (which by the way, I'm not even saying they were play testers), you mean the mass market? As a designer, I need to take in every comment and complaints from everyone, and formulate a response on what works and what doesn't. If I can talk to close friends and let them play DW games, and they don't get it (and they're well versed in many other games), then it doesn't matter if the fans think it's easy to get: there is a gap between fans who get it, and others who don't.

Personally, there are two ways of looking at Dynasty Warriors:

1)Dynasty Warrior is a niche game and a niche genre, and Koei should embrace it (and we see this with the Orochi games)
2)Dynasty Warrior is a game that has mass market appeal, and it's just that the mass market has not discovered yet (and Troy, in a way was an attempt at that by taking more "mainstream" elements)

If you take the former, then we wouldn't have this thread: fans are more than comfortable with the game being as they are, and we don't really need to care people hating on the franchise. More importantly, if you look at some of the Media Create numbers, you can be certain that most musou games land around 300K sales, no matter how good/bad they are.

If you take the latter, however, you're stuck with our thread and the dilemma: Why do people not like DW games? What can you do to bridge that gap? If you trying appeasing that gap, what consequences does it have on the musou feel of it.


Musou has an issue of being many things to many people, and not all of it are the same: Some people identify the large cast of characters as a musou staple, some identify the battlefield management stuff, others identify the grinding and loot aspect. So where do you put the knife down when you need to change stuff for a wider appeal? I remember first playing DW6 with the Renbu system, and I thought it was interesting, and polarizing way of doing it (and in general, absolutely hated by the most vocal ones).

I understand the purpose of playtesters, im not sure if this was the problem with you, but it always seems like when a problem happens within a game mechanic the reasoning is always, "well our playtesters said that X was too hard"

Musou is a difficult game to sell to the west, and the lack of a 360 release for Troy has prevented me from getting it, but one of the main things that many people love about Musou games, whether they are causal, or hardcore players, is the ability to feel like the fucking man, and be a deathgod.

I think Musou is what it is at this point. A niche title with a dedicated fanbase. I think most gamers listen to Musou reviewers and never give the game a chance, or they see modern day versions of it and can't differentiate the differences between that and the one they once played on the ps2. I doubt the games will ever be able to reach those guys unfortunately, as the people in this thread shows.

 

[dakkumauji]

I only got the Musou bug after on a whim I bought Dynasty Warriors 7 one day. I knew about it, but I never saw the appeal of it only after seeing a friend play I think DW5 one random day.

But, boy was I hooked on it after starting 7. I think it is a great game for people to get into the series and I found myself really enjoying everything about it. I can see people say it's the same old thing over and over, but considering how much fun I had with it, I'm ok with it.

Now, I'm hooked on Orochi 3 and 2.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

I understand the purpose of playtesters, im not sure if this was the problem with you, but it always seems like when a problem happens within a game mechanic the reasoning is always, "well our playtesters said that X was too hard"

I can't say anything specific about Troy, and how things happened, but I can tell you that it's rarely just "our play testers said X was too hard". A playtest focus group don't just "take the word of the tester", but rather look at other evidence that the players themselves commit to subconsciously.

Sure, you can go out guns blazing saying that the play testers are retarded and such: but when your game fails to sell because reviewers and players didn't like it, then who's fault is it? (and hey, that's why I'm out of a job)

For kicks, after I no longer worked at Koei, and was showing a friend Orochi 2 PSP (just because they haven't seen what I had worked on before), and I watched them play the first stage a few times. They kept on failing, and then I pointed out that they need to check the map and watch who needs help and cover the map. And even after that, they still failed, and still was baffled on why. Musou games sometimes asks you to do that mental juggling, and not everyone is willing to commit/want to do.

 

[djplaeskool]

Zhang Bao~~
Feel the Pooooweeeer!

OH!
I FEEL THE POWER IN MY HAAANDS~~

 

[Jarate]

I can't say anything specific about Troy, and how things happened, but I can tell you that it's rarely just "our play testers said X was too hard". A playtest focus group don't just "take the word of the tester", but rather look at other evidence that the players themselves commit to subconsciously.

Sure, you can go out guns blazing saying that the play testers are retarded and such: but when your game fails to sell because reviewers and players didn't like it, then who's fault is it? (and hey, that's why I'm out of a job)

For kicks, after I no longer worked at Koei, and was showing a friend Orochi 2 PSP (just because they haven't seen what I had worked on before), and I watched them play the first stage a few times. They kept on failing, and then I pointed out that they need to check the map and watch who needs help and cover the map. And even after that, they still failed, and still was baffled on why. Musou games sometimes asks you to do that mental juggling, and not everyone is willing to commit/want to do.

no I understand, and im not faulting you at all, in fact is wrong for me to assume anything and I apologize.

I really do wish Koei would give a western dev another chance at musou.

 

[pancakesandsex]

Some games handle the battlefield management and character progression REALLY well(DW5, SW1-3), but others really do not(DW7).

Some people prefer not to be bombarded with constant subquests that force you towards a specific path on the map, especially when failure leads to severe repercussions and enhanced difficulty for winning the battle(later games and SW). It is understandable that some players want to choose how to carve their way through the dangers of each battlefield, conquering at their leisure.(earlier games)

Some games provide hefty character progression with persistent items to equip across all warriors, weapon customization and skill trees. Other games are very passive, and focus on improving passive stat gains.

Then there are the people that have no idea what I am talking about and usually write piss-poor reviews that speak nothing in regards to the core design conceit. "Hit square a lot!" Witty!

DW7 really disappointed me in the battlefield management aspect of it. I haven't been able to delve into conquest mode very deeply, or XL yet, so I'm not sure if it's present there, but I was missing it in story mode. On the other hand, I really enjoyed the presentation.

 

[AlphaTwo00]

no I understand, and im not faulting you at all, in fact is wrong for me to assume anything and I apologize.

I really do wish Koei would give a western dev another chance at musou.

Meh, don't worry about it.

I worry somewhat about what Koei's going to do next with musou. DW6, Fist of North Star, Troy were all interesting offshoots taking the musou feel and going in a different direction, but when they suffer, Koei tends to reel back with design, and often with slightly better sales and result. At this point, the next few games are all "musou with this brand", and it's a bit worrying that the may be unintentionally marginalizing themselves with just spinoffs.

 

[Shadow780]

Zhang Bao~~
Feel the Pooooweeeer!

OH!
I FEEL THE POWER IN MY HAAANDS~~

Was the enemy camp pretty?

 

[SOME-MIST]

*shrug* I'm a dynasty warriors-esque fan. Tho I haven't bought a DW game, I love gundam musou, sengoku basara, and fotns: ken's rage.

I get why the majority of gamers don't like those types of games, but when I'm not playing FPS, RTS, or shmups competitively, it's nice to kick back and kick some ass.

 

[TheBanditKing]

No hate here I love the series and its spin offs. Kens Rage is easily one of my favs this gen, reminded me of streets of rage except with exploding bodies and crazy comments.

 

[CSX]

they need to make a Story Mode and EMpires Mode in one game as standard.

Vita game was going the right direction but its Empires mode is ass.

Empires mode can be a lot more fun if it included stragety and elements from ROTK too

Issuing commands and stuff during battle would be cool too. Issuing commands during pre battle screen would be nice too like sending everyone to defend one base while you go and kill 5000 dudes

 

[Nairume]

they need to make a Story Mode and EMpires Mode in one game as standard.

Vita game was going the right direction but its Empires mode is ass.

Empires mode can be a lot more fun if it included stragety and elements from ROTK too

Issuing commands and stuff during battle would be cool too. Issuing commands during pre battle screen would be nice too like sending everyone to defend one base while you go and kill 5000 dudes

I'm pretty sure that you could do that in DW5E/SW2E.

6E was a gigantic disappointment. The addition of sworn brotherhoods/marriages between officers was neat, but the actual empires mode itself was terrible.

 

[LuCkymoON]

My first DW game was Warriors Orochi 3 and I love it. It's simple, fun and has an arcade feeling to it. I can imagine a game based on Bleach like this.

 

[CSX]

I'm pretty sure that you could do that in DW5E/SW2E.

Didnt played SW2E but i faintly recall it from 5E. It was pretty much worthless correct? I guess Im asking for Koei to bring that stuff back, expand upon it, and then make it worthwhile.

Forgot to add but koei should make fighting enemy generals a lot harder as well

 

[Sqorgar]

My first DW game was Warriors Orochi 3 and I love it. It's simple, fun and has an arcade feeling to it. I can imagine a game based on Bleach like this.

??

 

[FrontalMonk]

they need to make a Story Mode and EMpires Mode in one game as standard.

Vita game was going the right direction but its Empires mode is ass.

Empires mode can be a lot more fun if it included stragety and elements from ROTK too

Issuing commands and stuff during battle would be cool too. Issuing commands during pre battle screen would be nice too like sending everyone to defend one base while you go and kill 5000 dudes

I have been wanting this since DW2. Not joking.

 

[Sqorgar]

I have been wanting this since DW2. Not joking.

Samurai Warriors Chronicles allows you to assign commands to the other three playable officers. You can send them to locations using the touch screen and they'll automatically fight the enemy generals and gate captains there.

 

[FrontalMonk]

Samurai Warriors Chronicles allows you to assign commands to the other three playable officers. You can send them to locations using the touch screen and they'll automatically fight the enemy generals and gate captains there.

Damn, between that and the mini-empires mode in Next, I almost feel like I'm missing out on the next gen of handhelds. Then I remember that Baldur's Gate is coming to iPad and I reassure myself that I made the right decision.

In other news, I really hope they integrate something like that into a mainline game then. Sounds like an excellent feature.

 

[madp]

Samurai Warriors Chronicles allows you to assign commands to the other three playable officers. You can send them to locations using the touch screen and they'll automatically fight the enemy generals and gate captains there.

There's also a bit of this in Dynasty Warriors Next, but it's pretty poorly-implemented. You can select two officers to accompany you into battle and can command them to attack or defend bases, but these commands can only be issued through touch by dragging the unit's icon to the desired base and selecting an attack/defend command. The problem is that when your officers are following you, their icons overlap on the map and you have to drag one, wait to see which icon starts moving away from you, and then drag the other. Not being able to quickly issue commands through a standard menu interface was pretty silly.

I would love to be able to issue more commands in future Musou games, if for no other reason than to cut down on the amount of running back and forth across maps from sneak attacks and the like.